Football and railways working together

[Mintona]

From BBC Sport: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/amp/football/45021793?__twitter_impression=true

“Rail chiefs and football bosses are in talks over ways to help travelling supporters who are being impacted by games moved for television coverage.

It comes after a Football Supporters' Federation (FSF) survey found that 42% of fans asked had missed matches moved to a television timeslot last season.

The survey also showed one in six fans lost money because of rearranged games.

The FSF has called for "affordable" 'fan-fare' style train tickets which are tied to a game rather than a date.

The Rail Delivery Group has told BBC Sport that discussions had begun with the Football Association and league bosses but were at an early stage.

BBC Sport has contacted the Premier League for a comment but is yet to receive a reply.”

Intrigued by the possibility of a new ‘fan-fare’ style of train tickets. Not sure how it would work but I hope an agreement can be reached.

The railways could be so much better at moving large crowds of people for events like this, so I really hope that some common ground can be found. Particularly at weekends when not all stock is being used for the normal weekday peak services. And hopefully it will bring an end to the FA Cup final being scheduled on a day when there are no trains back from London to Liverpool/Manchester/anywhere else inaccessible for thousands of fans. A bit of cross party communication can’t hurt.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Tbh, maybe because I have a railcard for now, but the price isn't the main issue for me when travelling to watch Cardiff play away matches. Its more that to get the best deals you have to book in advance, but sometimes games can be moved at fairly short notice, which makes it very difficult to work out the best way of doing it. The idea of tying a rail ticket to a game pretty much solves that issue, though no idea of feasible or realistic it actually is!

 

[Mag_seven]

And hopefully it will bring an end to the FA Cup final being scheduled on a day when there are no trains back from London to Liverpool/Manchester/anywhere else inaccessible for thousands of fans.

I doubt it - the teatime kick off for that particular match is probably with us forever now - TV has seen to that.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Tbh, maybe because I have a railcard for now, but the price isn't the main issue for me when travelling to watch Cardiff play away matches. Its more that to get the best deals you have to book in advance, but sometimes games can be moved at fairly short notice, which makes it very difficult to work out the best way of doing it. The idea of tying a rail ticket to a game pretty much solves that issue, though no idea of feasible or realistic it actually is!

You seem to be implying that the FA and/or League bosses are moving games at short notice? How could that possibly be?

I can't believe such a heinous attitude could prevail. So it must be the train companies' fault.

The FA in particular invariably stresses the history and deep socio-cultural aspects of its competitions.

It's as if the FA would move the time of the FA Cup Final for the sake of a larger TV audience - and even risk fans of beloved clubs like Wigan Athletic not being able to get home because of such coporate greed.

As if!

This is England, land of fair play, decency and Hope and, er ... no trains home after the game.

 

[Jonfun]

Fan fares could work if football specials were reintroduced - ie the fans book a cheap ticket on the football special to and from the game (perhaps include connecting local services to their departure point).

Has the added advantage of easier policing (they only have to dedicate officers to one train), better crowd control opportunities (you know where and when they'll be and how many of them there are) and normal travellers get a less disruptive journey. Win for everyone.

 

[CeeJ]

You seem to be implying that the FA and/or League bosses are moving games at short notice? How could that possibly be?

I can't believe such a heinous attitude could prevail. So it must be the train companies' fault.

Nobody is saying it is the train companies' fault, but instead they're working on developing a solution so that fans who book ahead are not unduly affected when changes are made.

 

[greyman42]

TV tends to arrange their matches around a month in advance. Supporters can buy tickets around 6 months in advance so can be affected by the change of the match day or kick off time. There will not be a lot the railways can do for matches changed to evening slots as most services, apart from London and the South East, will not have a booked service late enough to get away supporters home.

 

[mirodo]

Fan fares could work if football specials were reintroduced - ie the fans book a cheap ticket on the football special to and from the game (perhaps include connecting local services to their departure point).

Has the added advantage of easier policing (they only have to dedicate officers to one train), better crowd control opportunities (you know where and when they'll be and how many of them there are) and normal travellers get a less disruptive journey. Win for everyone.

This assumes fans resident in the city/town where their team plays traveling to away matches, where the numbers would justify a football special. Many teams have supporters from outside their traditional catchment area who, every other fixture, make a long journey to see their team at home. I doubt you'd have sufficient numbers of (for example) Leeds United fans in London to fill a train, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be allowed to take advantage of such a scheme.

 

[Smitham]

As a football fan who enjoys travelling to away games, I have had to gamble on booking cheap train tickets for fixtures that could still be moved at the time of booking. I have won some and lost some. It is very frustrating. It seems mad to suggest that the responsibility should be put on the TOCs. How can a TOC take bookings from a football fan when they dont know which train/day/time they will be travelling, both outbound and return? The focus here should be on the Premier League and their broadcasters. If they forced broadcasters to commit to fixture changes being announced no less than three months before the date of the fixtures, then the problem is solved.
If the fixture is set in stone, far enough in advance, then we are able to enjoy the cheapest tickets.

 

[Flying Snail]

This assumes fans resident in the city/town where their team plays traveling to away matches, where the numbers would justify a football special. Many teams have supporters from outside their traditional catchment area who, every other fixture, make a long journey to see their team at home. I doubt you'd have sufficient numbers of (for example) Leeds United fans in London to fill a train, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be allowed to take advantage of such a scheme.

And what about everyone else whose travel plans change outside their control; why shouldn't they enjoy the same flexibility to change cheap advances as football fans?

 

[mark-h]

I would assume that these tickets would be a bit more expensive than the cheapest advance ticket. It would be a bit like buying a ticket and insurance.

The focus here should be on the Premier League and their broadcasters. If they forced broadcasters to commit to fixture changes being announced no less than three months before the date of the fixtures, then the problem is solved.

It would seem easy enough to negotiate the times of games when selling the TV rights- The TV companies know when the popular viewing times are.

 

[Mag_seven]

If the fixture is set in stone, far enough in advance, then we are able to enjoy the cheapest tickets.

Except that if the TOC knows that a fixture would not change, the moment the date of that fixture is announced you will find that all the cheap advances for that date would mysteriously disappear!

 

[mirodo]

And what about everyone else whose travel plans change outside their control; why shouldn't they enjoy the same flexibility to change cheap advances as football fans?

I was commenting on the flaw of running such a scheme using "football specials"; I was neither endorsing nor disagreeing with the core concept of the scheme itself.

 

[Flying Snail]

Except that if the TOC knows that a fixture would not change, the moment the date of that fixture is announced you will find that all the cheap advances for that date would mysteriously disappear!

That is certainly what the likes of Ryanair do for flights on high demand football routes once the fixtures are published.

 

[45107]

As a football fan who enjoys travelling to away games, I have had to gamble on booking cheap train tickets for fixtures that could still be moved at the time of booking. I have won some and lost some. It is very frustrating. It seems mad to suggest that the responsibility should be put on the TOCs. How can a TOC take bookings from a football fan when they dont know which train/day/time they will be travelling, both outbound and return? The focus here should be on the Premier League and their broadcasters. If they forced broadcasters to commit to fixture changes being announced no less than three months before the date of the fixtures, then the problem is solved.
If the fixture is set in stone, far enough in advance, then we are able to enjoy the cheapest tickets.

I am a regular traveller to Rotterdam to watch football (from the UK). The fixtures for the season are released towards the end of June. In all the years I have been travelling (20+) I have been caught out with one short notice alteration. (There have been postponed games that have caused problems, mainly financial due to spending time in the pub)
It can be done if the FA and TV companies work together.

 

[CeeJ]

It will be quite interesting to see what is proposed, perhaps an option to buy fixed advance tickets with your ticket (stipulating your home station), for a price determined by the football club, which would change if kickoff changes. I went to watch the Michael Carrick testimonial at Old Trafford in 2017, and due to the tragic Manchester Bombings (and the subsequent One Love Manchester concert), KO was brought forward from 4pm to 2:30pm - where this occurs, particularly if its for TV reasons, clubs need to start offering financial recourse to its supporters.

It would seem easy enough to negotiate the times of games when selling the TV rights- The TV companies know when the popular viewing times are.

It's all about who to play on those peak slots, as TV companies don't want to hedge their bets too early. In the 2015/16 season, for example, Leicester City had virtually zero games scheduled to be on TV between August and December, yet for some reason they featured a lot more after January...

 

[BlueFox]

TV tends to arrange their matches around a month in advance.

The approximate dates for the TV game announcements this season are:

7th August: October / November matches
12th October: December / January matches
12th December: February matches
25th January: March matches
22nd February: April matches
5th April: May matches


Then there will be cup games moved for TV. There's much shorter notice for these, but they're usually announced a few days after the draw so most fans don't organise travel until the televised games have been announced.


It's not just TV coverage that causes matches to be moved, for clubs in the Premier League. If a team is playing in the Europa League (they play on Thursday nights), their next game won't be played on the following Saturday, it will usually be moved to the Sunday. This can happen at fairly short notice in the knockout stage of the competition.

 

[Nick66]

Except that if the TOC knows that a fixture would not change, the moment the date of that fixture is announced you will find that all the cheap advances for that date would mysteriously disappear!

For example Newcastle to London on the Sunday evening which was the last day of the season and it was known that Newcastle would be playing Chelsea from the day the fixtures were announced. When tickets go on sale before the matches are moved the cheapest tickets are still available.

The approximate dates for the TV game announcements this season are:

7th August: October / November matches
12th October: December / January matches
12th December: February matches
25th January: March matches
22nd February: April matches
5th April: May matches

Let’s see how much of a work of fiction that is for this season, shall we...

 

[DarloRich]

A good idea that will come to nothing and disapear quietly. The only companies i can see being able to offer anything would be North - South providers and there isnt much in it for them

 

[Gemz91]

As a football fan who enjoys travelling to away games, I have had to gamble on booking cheap train tickets for fixtures that could still be moved at the time of booking. I have won some and lost some. It is very frustrating. It seems mad to suggest that the responsibility should be put on the TOCs. How can a TOC take bookings from a football fan when they dont know which train/day/time they will be travelling, both outbound and return? The focus here should be on the Premier League and their broadcasters. If they forced broadcasters to commit to fixture changes being announced no less than three months before the date of the fixtures, then the problem is solved.
If the fixture is set in stone, far enough in advance, then we are able to enjoy the cheapest tickets.

Don't forgot us poor soles in the Football League too!

 

[Stampy]

Just to add that last season, i was on a late running VTWC service from Birmingham to Preston, and the guard (having noticed many of my fellow Northampton Town supporters on the train) put in a request to HOLD the train to Blackburn at Preston for 10 minutes so we could make our connection...

They did hold it, and we were most grateful....

 

[cuccir]

Don't forgot us poor soles in the Football League too!

Even football league players can afford decent quality boots nowadays, shurely?

 

[cuccir]

And what about everyone else whose travel plans change outside their control; why shouldn't they enjoy the same flexibility to change cheap advances as football fans?

Well they could, but that's a different issue - that's changing the product (the Advance ticket), which would be needed in response to lots of individual people's plans changing. With regards to Premier League and Championship matches, there is one feature - a football match - which changes the travel plans of hundreds and sometimes thousands of rail travelers, so it is possible to issue a different ticket type tied to matches rather than dates, without fundamentally changing the Advance ticket product.

It wouldn't, I think, preclude other events - sport, festivals - having similar tickets issued for them in the future, if this was successful.

Despite there being some anti-social behaviour, it's a good thing to encourage football fans to travel. Fans have a significant positive economic impact on the towns they're visiting, and remember that clubs pay for policing costs. If we make it easier for football fans to travel, more will - meaning more hotel rooms, bar meals, pub takings. Encouraging them to use rail rather than road is also a positive for wider congestion.

 

[WelshBluebird]

How can a TOC take bookings from a football fan when they dont know which train/day/time they will be travelling, both outbound and return?

What?? Why couldn't they? They don't know what train / day / time a passenger with an open return is travelling either yet they can still take those bookings.

 

[Puffing Devil]

It is possible to "insure" by buying advances from Cross Country and making changes if necessary. Not perfect, but better than losing out completely.

 

[Smitham]

Don't forgot us poor soles in the Football League too!

Fair comment. I spent years follow my team in the FL too.

 

[Andyh82]

Sounds like a good idea.

Another benefit of a ‘Football Advance’ is that they could charge different prices to encourage people to travel at different times to spread the load.

For example a return ticket the following day could be cheaper than those the same evening which would encourage people to stay over, boost the economy and avoid the ‘high spirited’ Saturday evening trains in favour of a calmer Sunday lunchtime train.

 

[Iskra]

Agreed on the need for improvement regarding the handling of large crowds.

A case in point this Sunday: Leeds Vs Stoke- 34,000 people and Leeds pride up to 50,000 people and Northern still think its okay to run two car trains between Leeds and the surrounding towns and cities. People were getting left behind. I appreciate Northern are not blessed with the ability to run 12 car trains and do not have lots of rolling stock, but you'd think on a Sunday they might be able to at least get up to 4 carriages.

The stock existed on Sunday, Pride must have been announced well in advance, so why wasn't the stock used?

 

[221129]

Agreed on the need for improvement regarding the handling of large crowds.

A case in point this Sunday: Leeds Vs Stoke- 34,000 people and Leeds pride up to 50,000 people and Northern still think its okay to run two car trains between Leeds and the surrounding towns and cities. People were getting left behind. I appreciate Northern are not blessed with the ability to run 12 car trains and do not have lots of rolling stock, but you'd think on a Sunday they might be able to at least get up to 4 carriages.

The stock existed on Sunday, Pride must have been announced well in advance, so why wasn't the stock used?

Most likely because it was being seen for maintenance?

 

[mark-h]

Another benefit of a ‘Football Advance’ is that they could charge different prices to encourage people to travel at different times to spread the load.

For example a return ticket the following day could be cheaper than those the same evening which would encourage people to stay over

This would need the hotels to be offer football linked bookings as well. In addition whilst many people could stay overnight after a game on Saturday if it moved to Sunday they would likely be working on Monday.