Forest Hill to Syon Lane

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BOBmcbob

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I've been exploring the cheapest way to get between these two stations, as I have to work out there for a few months.

Would I be correct in saying a monthly season ticket from London Terminals - Clapham Junction would be valid on this route, assuming that

a) Took the loop train via Crystal Palace to Clapham Junction (i.e a through train)
b) Took the Hounslow loop train at Clapham Junction in the opposite direction to Waterloo and alighted at Syon Lane.

Technically both are through trains -my understanding is that means they are always a valid route

Thanks

Bob
 
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b0b

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b) Took the Hounslow loop train at Clapham Junction in the opposite direction to Waterloo and alighted at Syon Lane.

Technically both are through trains -my understanding is that means they are always a valid route
Train (b) looks like trouble because your proposed London to Clapham Junction train via Syon Lane would seem to have to pass throw Clapham Junction on the way?

It hasn't been clarified if you are allowed to take the "unnecessary part" of a journey on a loop train...
 

MCR247

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I doubt a London - Clapham ticket would be valid. You have to pass through Clapham.
 

b0b

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I doubt a London - Clapham ticket would be valid. You have to pass through Clapham.
However you're still on a through train from London to Clapham Junction via Syon Lane.... that is where the inconsistency comes in.

See [DB] here: http://www.rossrail.co.uk/central/routeqn5.html

and from the ATOC Routeing Guide:

Most customers wish to make journeys by through trains or by the shortest route. In both cases they will be travelling on a permitted route, provided the correct fare has been paid to reflect any routeing indicated by the fares manual.
 

tony_mac

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what do the timetables say about that service?

National Rail for instance, shows a loop journey from Chester to Chester - but all the timetables I have seen refer to it as two journeys - Chester to Liverpool Central and Liverpool Central to Chester.
 

yorkie

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I'd say no, but a ticket to Mortlake would be valid via Barnes Bridge and the long way round (and vice-versa).

You can't do London-Clapham-somewhere else-Clapham, on a London-Clapham ticket as you would be passing through Clapham twice. But a ticket to somewhere the train passes through once would be fine for going the long way round.
 

transportphoto

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Right - I have had a look,

You have a Season Ticket from London Term's to Clapham Junct, (so theres no need to worry about passing through Clapham twice) and you want to do Forest Hill to Syon Lane - the Season allows travel on any permitted route and therefore allows to to get any direct train - also allowing Breaks of Journey.

YOU CAN DO THIS JOURNEY

My reasoning is that you can break and continue your journey at any station along a permitted route, from Forest Hill (continue your Un-Started journey) board a Service which stops at CLJ, from there (start the return Journey [ back to London]) Board a train advertised for LONDON WATERLOO (via the loop & stopping at Syon Lane) making sure it is advertised as Waterloo is crucial for it being a permitted train because its direct. Break Your Journey at Syon Lane.

------------------------

Continue your Journey to London Terminal's

From Syon Lane board a Service to London Waterloo which Stops at CLJ (break your journey at CLJ) from there Board a Southern Service to a London Terminal which calls at Forest Hill again - Break your Journey at Forest Hill.


______________________

Breaking your Journey is Crucial for this Journey to be VALID!

Although it MAY arouse some unwanted attention!
 
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b0b

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I just took a look at the live departure boards:

From Clapham Junction:
21:17 London Waterloo via Hounslow & Richmond (circular route) On time 5


that train does stop at Syon Lane. You certainly have an argument that a Clapham to London ticket is valid on this train since its going from Clapham and going to London.
 

dan_atki

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[can of worms]
The train leaving Clapham platform 5 will be advertised both on the platform and on board the train as 'Hounslow'.
[/can of worms]
 

transportphoto

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OK, thanks dan_atki - 'Bang goes the Theory'

But is it officially a through loop train (i.e. officially going to Waterloo via the Hounslow Loop)?

Is it just advertised as only to Hounslow to prevent pax who want the fast services to Waterloo?


EDIT:
They can not 'do' anyone for travelling on a Booked through train although it is advertised as terminating at Hounslow
 
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b0b

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There's no doubt that this is questionable and I think you're going to have a hard time exiting at Syon Lane by convincing station staff that you're trying to break your Clapham to London journey.

But its really not your fault that ATOC wont answer whether you're permitted to make an unnecessary part of a journey on a loop train. From the routeing guide, it technically is valid (in my belief).

In reality the guide needs updating to reflect the obvious situation that you may not double back through a station on a through train if the train has more than one scheduled stop at that station.

Or even that doubling back is not allowed on through trains?

(is that the way to write the rule?)
 

yorkie

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making sure it is advertised as Waterloo is crucial
Do you think there is any chance that they advertise trains going towards Hounslow as to Waterloo? :lol:

That said, I don't think it is "crucial" that the service is "advertised" as such anyway. I think it is simply invalid because of the fact that you are doubling back, not 'just' through Clapham, but a whole load of other stations.

Ignoring the fact that Oyster PAYG conditions are different, it's rather like boarding a westbound train at King's Cross and going to Euston, going beyond Euston all around the circle and then finishing at Euston, calling at Euston twice.

You can argue a ticket to Barnes Bridge is valid via Hounslow (and I wouldn't be surprised if you'd get hassled for that - despite it being valid), but to argue a ticket from London to Clapham is valid beyond Clapham double backing for several stations, is crazy.
 

dan_atki

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Is it just advertised as only to Hounslow to prevent pax who want the fast services to Waterloo?
Well that and other reasons - Hounslow's completely the opposite direction from Clapham than Waterloo. It would be unintuitive to get a train seemingly going in the opposite direction than where you're going.


EDIT:
They can not 'do' anyone for travelling on a Booked through train although it is advertised as terminating at Hounslow
Technically the first part of that is correct. The second opens the can of worms.

There is also the case of the technicality of the break of journey being valid. ATOC would take the stance here that even IF going that way around was valid the break of journey would not be: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=418032&postcount=29, a view several members here are at odds with.

Or even that doubling back is not allowed on through trains?

(is that the way to write the rule?)
That could work but journeys from say Lewes to Bexhill would then need an easement to allow a double back through Hampden Park (I believe this easement already exists but is superfluous on a direct train).
 

b0b

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The 21:17 Clapham Junction service is shown on page 28 of Timetable 149 the national timetable. It seems like the train is a London Waterloo to Whitton service.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/May10/timetables/Table149.pdf
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
That said, I don't think it is "crucial" that the service is "advertised" as such anyway. I think it is simply invalid because of the fact that you are doubling back, not 'just' through Clapham, but a whole load of other stations.
doubling back is irrelevant since you're technically on a train thats a through train to London.

from the NRG:
"Most customers wish to make journeys by through trains or by the shortest route. In both cases they will be travelling on a permitted route"

NRG Glossary:
Through Train
A through train is one which runs between the origin and destination stations and on which passengers can make their journey without having to change trains.
 
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yorkie

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Is it just advertised as only to Hounslow to prevent pax who want the fast services to Waterloo?
Fast services?! That's like standing at Edgware Road wanting to get to Westbourne Park, and describing a train advertised toward Hammersmith as a "fast" service as it only goes a few stops directly, and a train via Paddington, Victoria, Aldgate and Edgware Road (again) and Paddington (again) as a "slow" service :lol::lol::lol::lol:
 

tony_mac

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The South West trains timetables show that Clapham junction to Waterloo via Syon lane is a through journey (it is in bold on the timetable).

However, the national rail timetable shows that the train terminates at Hounslow.
 

b0b

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So the summary is: it's questionable. :lol:

The "Through Train" definition is way too generous,
(a) in the case of the loop train, it doesn't specify you have to travel the shortest distance on a train between the origin and destination as we suspect
(b) the definition given implies that a London to Clapham Junction ticket is valid to say Brighton, since you can probably catch a train from Victoria to Brighton and physically stay on that train until it forms a new service and returns to Victoria, calling at Clapham Junction
 

BOBmcbob

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Thanks for the responses - I only got the idea from the NR website where it states the train is from waterloo to waterloo.

 

yorkie

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So the summary is: it's questionable. :lol:

The "Through Train" definition is way too generous,
(a) in the case of the loop train, it doesn't specify you have to travel the shortest distance on a train between the origin and destination as we suspect
Such a rule could not really exist, and in any case you can go 'the long way round', the TOCs don't like it (FSR in particular threw a wobbler and demanded the rules be changed) however this is different. This isn't a case of getting a ticket to the shorter part of the route and going the long way round, this is a major case of doubling back.

NCoC said:
18. If you travel further than a ticket allows
If you travel beyond the destination shown on the ticket, you will be treated as having joined the train without a ticket for that additional part of your journey. The relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply for that additional part of your journey
Going from London to Syon Lane involves choosing not to get off at Clapham Jn - going beyond your destination of Clapham Jn. This is not valid on a London to Clapham Jn ticket.

There's no point in us pretending this is a simple case of going the long way round; it isn't. ATOC are already trying to prevent people going long ways round as it is, I don't think this sort of idea helps.
 

Ivo

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At a push, could you not buy an onward ticket from Clapham Junction to Barnes Bridge (as opposed to from Terminals, because that would require Waterloo and not the multiple available at CLJ)?
 

yorkie

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At a push, could you not buy an onward ticket from Clapham Junction to Barnes Bridge
Yes...
... a ticket to Mortlake would be valid via Barnes Bridge and the long way round (and vice-versa).
... it's a through train; there is no doubling back/going beyond your destination. So it is valid.

(as opposed to from Terminals, because that would require Waterloo and not the multiple available at CLJ)?
No idea what this means!
 

Ivo

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I said an onward ticket from Clapham Junction, as opposed to London Terminals, because that clearly would invalidate the route as it would require travel from Waterloo. (By "multiple" I mean that Waterloo isn't the only Terminal with a direct service to Clapham Junction.) So the idea is to keep the current already-cheeky ticket of London Terminals to Clapham Junction, and then buy an onward ticket to Barnes Bridge...

...although, having checked, Forest Hill to Barnes Bridge is cheaper anyway. Even an Annual Season is barely £2 a day (£832), although that uses Route London! Avoiding London is over £50 more.

Anyway, a random little note here, because this is my 1,000th post!!! :D
 

yorkie

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I still don't get it.

A ticket from Waterloo or Clapham to Barnes bridge would be valid via Hounslow.
 

Ivo

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Okay, let me try again. The bit you don't understand is that Terminals to Barnes Bridge would be useless because it would (I assume anyway) necessitate travelling from Waterloo, and not "London Bridge" as the OP would hope (obviously, London Bridge is merely the terminal and not the actual starting point, as though he breaks the journey every day!). So I had said to do that, and then from Clapham Junction to Barnes Bridge.

...Never mind. I'm now just going to suggest that the OP buys a ticket from Forest Hill to Barnes Bridge or Mortlake, as this appears to be the cheapest option.
 

b0b

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Going from London to Syon Lane involves choosing not to get off at Clapham Jn - going beyond your destination of Clapham Jn. This is not valid on a London to Clapham Jn ticket.
Sure, its easy to call getting off at Syon Lane on a London Terminals to Clapham Junction ticket as an overdistance trip. But its much harder to argue that somebody boarding the train making a Clapham Junction to London Terminals trip on a train that's going to London Waterloo is making an invalid journey.

I know you're going to continue to argue the double back, but there is no rule that says you can't do that on a through train.
 

yorkie

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Okay, let me try again. The bit you don't understand is that Terminals to Barnes Bridge would be useless because it would (I assume anyway) necessitate travelling from Waterloo, and not "London Bridge" as the OP would hope (obviously, London Bridge is merely the terminal and not the actual starting point, as though he breaks the journey every day!). So I had said to do that, and then from Clapham Junction to Barnes Bridge.
It would be valid from London Bridge, changing at Waterloo, but I see what you are saying now.

Without checking, I am not sure about via Forest Hill, that seems a bit extreme, but the RG would need to be checked. However I see that splitting at Clapham may help, as Forest Hill has direct trains between London and Clapham that would be valid on such a ticket without consulting the RG as they are direct trains.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Sure, its easy to call getting off at Syon Lane on a London Terminals to Clapham Junction ticket as an overdistance trip. But its much harder to argue that somebody boarding the train making a Clapham Junction to London Terminals trip on a train that's going to London Waterloo is making an invalid journey..
Well, that's the exact same journey, but in reverse. Therefore it is on very dodgy ground.

However I do accept your point about it being easier to justify going to London via Hounslow than the other way round, mostly due to the way the NCoC is worded ("beyond destination" - no mention of origin!).

Even if you can, dubiously, do it in 1 direction, that would be a major problem for such a commute not being able to justify it 50% of the time (ie all your journeys in one direction).
 

transportphoto

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yorkie said:
However I do accept your point about it being easier to justify going to London via Hounslow than the other way round, mostly due to the way the NCoC is worded ("beyond destination" - no mention of origin!).
It seems that people have got confused - the OP would be travelling towards London (not visa-versa) as he has completed his journey from London (after breaking it at Forest Hill), so going past your destination station to get to it is irrelevant as he is travelling towards LDN.
As said in my brief Itinerary in post #7 :
CLJ, from there (start the return Journey [ back to London]) Board a train advertised for LONDON WATERLOO (via the loop & stopping at Syon Lane)
 

OwlMan

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I said an onward ticket from Clapham Junction, as opposed to London Terminals, because that clearly would invalidate the route as it would require travel from Waterloo. (By "multiple" I mean that Waterloo isn't the only Terminal with a direct service to Clapham Junction.) So the idea is to keep the current already-cheeky ticket of London Terminals to Clapham Junction, and then buy an onward ticket to Barnes Bridge...

...although, having checked, Forest Hill to Barnes Bridge is cheaper anyway. Even an Annual Season is barely £2 a day (£832), although that uses Route London! Avoiding London is over £50 more.

Anyway, a random little note here, because this is my 1,000th post!!! :D
But the OP wanted to go to Syon Lane
Forest Hill - Syon Lane (not London )annual season is £708-00
so why would he want a more expensive ticket to Barnes Bridge?

Forest Hill - Syon lane (via London) annual season is £884 so I would use the "Not London" ticket changing at Clapham Junction

So why would he buy a "Not London" ticket to Barnes Bridge.

NB An annual "Not London" season from Forest Hill to all stations between Barnes Bridge & Hounslow is £884 except for Brentford, Syon Laned & Isleworth which are £708. Strange...

Peter
 
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MichaelAMW

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Hello All,

Thought I'd better stop my long-time lurking and join...

The point that has been missed, regarding the OP's attempts make his journey cheaper, is that the routeing guide allows you to go on any through train, i.e. regardless of whether it is via a permitted route, *only* if it is a through train from the origin to the destination *as shown* on the ticket.

So you can get on a London Bridge - Victoria train at London Bridge and go to Clapham Jn, since that is origin to destination (London Terminals - CJ) but you may not get on en route, e.g. at Forest Hill. Similarly, I think you probably *can* go Waterloo to Clapham Junction via the Hounslow loop - the business about doubling back only applies when you get to the stage of using the routeing guide maps - but you can't break your journey.

The RG makes it clear that going all the way origin to destination on a through train is only permitted *for that journey*, i.e. it isn't a permitted route for any intermediate journey - unless, of course, it happens to be permitted for another reason. Put it another way, the 'chance' passage of a through train via an otherwise non-permitted route does not add that route to the permitted-routes list.

Michael.
 

b0b

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The RG makes it clear that going all the way origin to destination on a through train is only permitted *for that journey*, i.e. it isn't a permitted route for any intermediate journey - unless, of course, it happens to be permitted for another reason.
It's not an intermediate journey, its a trip with a break of journey. Season tickets have unlimited break of journey validity.
 
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