Former Alexander companies' fleet numbering

[GusB]

Earlier today I was browsing through an old fleet book (Scottish Bus Handbook, 1989 edition) and I noted that two of the former Alexander companies - Fife and Midland - had adopted a single numerical series for their bus fleets. At the time of publication, Fife had completely ditched the old "class codes" and only used numbers, while Midland held on to the class codes, but had ditched the "M" prefix. Northern kept the old system of using individual sequences for each vehicle type until privatisation; the "N" prefix was dropped soon after Stagecoach took over, but initially buses retained their original fleet numbers before eventually being renumbered into a common sequence with Stagecoach Scotland (Perth) operations.

I have a couple of questions:

• When did Fife drop the old "Alexander" system?
• When did Midland re-number its fleet into the single sequence?

Just to provide a bit of background, W Alexander & Sons was a single company until it was split into 3 different legal entities (Fife, Midland and Northern). Up until then, the entire fleet had been numbered with a class code denoting the type of vehicle, along with a sequence number. Thereafter, a prefix (F, M or N) was added to denote which fleet the vehicle belonged to.

To give an example, NPE44 was a Northern Leyland Leopard, number 44 in the sequence - ish! (It's not quite that simple in practice)

 

[Steve440]

Fife renumbered in January 1988 and Midland in September 1989 although some Midland minibuses had numbers in the 600 series from 1986.

 

[LBObserver]

As an aside to this, if I remember correctly, Midland created a new MSE class and Lw depot code (to distinguish from L, Larbert Road) when Linlithgow depot was transferred in the SBG reshuffle around 1985 from Eastern Scottish.

Midland acquired their first Seddons numbered from MSE1 to about 33, oldest to newest. I am sure the newest was forner S983F (F being Linlithgow depot), JFS983X, almost the last numerical Seddon Pennine/Alexander Y type in the Eastern fleet (the final three S984-6 went to new Lowland Scottish). It looked particularly smart in Midland colours. I believe at least one Alexander T type Seddon, new to Western but from SBG Engineering (maybe another topic for someone?) was added later.

When the fleet type was dropped I think they were renumbered in a single block something like 601 onwards. My memory may be playing tricks on me with some detail. Happy to be corrected.

 

[DunsBus]

Fife renumbered in January 1988 and Midland in September 1989 although some Midland minibuses had numbers in the 600 series from 1986.

Fife, I recall, renumbered to a series of numerical blocks similar to Lowland's fleet numbering system.

As an aside to this, if I remember correctly, Midland created a new MSE class and Lw depot code (to distinguish from L, Larbert Road) when Linlithgow depot was transferred in the SBG reshuffle around 1985 from Eastern Scottish.

Midland acquired their first Seddons numbered from MSE1 to about 33, oldest to newest. I am sure the newest was forner S983F (F being Linlithgow depot), JFS983X, almost the last numerical Seddon Pennine/Alexander Y type in the Eastern fleet (the final three S984-6 went to new Lowland Scottish). It looked particularly smart in Midland colours. I believe at least one Alexander T type Seddon, new to Western but from SBG Engineering (maybe another topic for someone?) was added later.

When the fleet type was dropped I think they were renumbered in a single block something like 601 onwards. My memory may be playing tricks on me with some detail. Happy to be corrected.

MSE1 was the first, in 1984 (an ex-Western one rebuilt to carry wheelchairs). MSE2-27 were the Eastern inheritance, in 1985, and MSE28-33 came from Clydeside Scottish in 1987.

 

[GusB]

Fife renumbered in January 1988 and Midland in September 1989 although some Midland minibuses had numbers in the 600 series from 1986.

Thanks. My source said that the Midland renumbering happened "recently", so it was just before publication of the book.

The idea of renumbering into a single sequence must have been around for a good few years beforehand - the earliest Leyland Tigers were numbered as MPT101-5; if the old system was used, they'd have been numbered MPT1-5.

One other thing that I picked up on was that Midland tended to add new vehicles to the end of the current sequence, while Northern preferred to fill the gaps left by previous disposals.

 

[Stan Drews]

Thanks. My source said that the Midland renumbering happened "recently", so it was just before publication of the book.

The idea of renumbering into a single sequence must have been around for a good few years beforehand - the earliest Leyland Tigers were numbered as MPT101-5; if the old system was used, they'd have been numbered MPT1-5.

One other thing that I picked up on was that Midland tended to add new vehicles to the end of the current sequence, while Northern preferred to fill the gaps left by previous disposals.

We could disappear down a rabbit hole, but should the Tigers not have been MPF etc, as i don’t think in the original Alexander’s scheme the third letter was anything other than the next one in the alphabet, i.e. PA, PB, PC, PD, PE…?

 

[GusB]

We could disappear down a rabbit hole, but should the Tigers not have been MPF etc, as i don’t think in the original Alexander’s scheme the third letter was anything other than the next one in the alphabet, i.e. PA, PB, PC, PD, PE…?

That's one rabbit hole I've already contemplated! PA/PB were Tiger PS/OPS, PC was for Leyland Royal Tiger (original version), PD was for the Tiger Cub and of course, PE for Leopards.

Using that logic, the Tiger would be PG, though; the National came along in-between.

It's interesting that the three companies diverged with Fife using LT, Midland retaining the P tradition with PT and Northern using LT, CT, BT and RT!

 

[Stan Drews]

That's one rabbit hole I've already contemplated! PA/PB were Tiger PS/OPS, PC was for Leyland Royal Tiger (original version), PD was for the Tiger Cub and of course, PE for Leopards.

Using that logic, the Tiger would be PG, though; the National came along in-between.

It's interesting that the three companies diverged with Fife using LT, Midland retaining the P tradition with PT and Northern using LT, CT, BT and RT!

Indeed. Forgot about the National.

Northern also used NLO for their Olympians, but the prototype (which became NLO1) was originally MRO1 with Midland.

 

[GusB]

Indeed. Forgot about the National.

Northern also used NLO for their Olympians, but the prototype (which became NLO1) was originally MRO1 with Midland.

There's another rabbit hole!

Alexander used R for double deckers, regardless of the vehicle type:

• RA - Leyland Titan
• RB - Leyland Titan
• RC - AEC Regent
• RD - Bristol Lodekka
• RE - Albion Lowlander
• RF - Daimler/Leyland Fleetline

The next new double decker to come along was (I think) the Ailsa which should have logically been classed as RG (classed as RA) followed by the Metrobus which should have been RH, but classed as RM.

I think we need to stop this geekery now!