Former bus routes in Cheshire and Greater Manchester

[northwichcat]

I've just been looking at someone's Flickr photos of Starline Travel, who operated around the Knutsford and Altrincham areas in the 1990s. As you'd expect some of the route numbers displayed on buses no longer exist and I was wondering what some of them were.

This one shows 298 Altrincham: https://www.flickr.com/photos/92671212@N07/14199983168 Was there a 298 route or should it have said 289 which still exists?

This one shows 216 Altrincham: https://www.flickr.com/photos/92671212@N07/14406879303 Does anyone know what route was that?

This one in a demonstrator livery shows 7 Bollington: https://www.flickr.com/photos/rossendalian2013/13435476125/in/set-72157641880544214 Does anyone know what route was that?

This one shows 370 Altrincham and the bus behind shows 22 Star Line Travel: http://www.railwaymedia.co.uk/Buses.../XL/North Western 69 Knutsford 140496g-XL.jpg

This one shows E17 Wilmslow: https://www.flickr.com/photos/rossendalian2013/13424066515/in/set-72157641880544214 which the caption explains was Macclesfield-Wilmslow (pre-Stevensons.)

And a few pictures I found show routes which still exist:
308 Bramhall (Circular): https://www.flickr.com/photos/92671212@N07/14363452886

300 Knutsford (Circular): https://www.flickr.com/photos/rossendalian2013/14200164810/in/set-72157641880544214

19 Altrincham - Manchester Airport: https://www.flickr.com/photos/rossendalian2013/14387531801/in/set-72157641880544214 Showing an early low floor bus. The original batch were ordered by Starline Travel under a GMPTE grant for low floor buses, but were only delivered after they were taken over by British Bus t/a North Western. Hence the route being operated by buses with Starline base colours and North Western branding.

 

[madannie77]

I've just been looking at someone's Flickr photos of Starline Travel, who operated around the Knutsford and Altrincham areas in the 1990s. As you'd expect some of the route numbers displayed on buses no longer exist and I was wondering what some of them were.

This one shows 298 Altrincham: https://www.flickr.com/photos/92671212@N07/14199983168 Was there a 298 route or should it have said 289 which still exists?

The 298 and 299 were Altrincham to Timperley circular services which were GMT routes prior to deregulation, being taken on by Star lIne at some point after that.

Another Star Line bus on the 298:

http://madannie.smugmug.com/Buses/Greater-Manchester/Greater-Manchester-1990s/i-Gj66CH8/A

This one in a demonstrator livery shows 7 Bollington: https://www.flickr.com/photos/rossendalian2013/13435476125/in/set-72157641880544214 Does anyone know what route was that

It was a Macclesfield to Bollington service, as explained in the caption under the photo. I would not be surprised if it was derived from a Crosville route numbered E7, but that is a guess on my part. I don't have access to most of my timetable collection at the moment so I can't confirm (or otherwise).

 

[northwichcat]

http://madannie.smugmug.com/Buses/Greater-Manchester/Greater-Manchester-1990s/i-Gj66CH8/A

Interestingly going back one picture shows a bus saying "288 Hale Barnes"

http://madannie.smugmug.com/Buses/Greater-Manchester/Greater-Manchester-1990s/i-qRfdkFp/A

The 288 route is now the 88 route operated by GHA Coaches with half of buses following the original route via Morley Green. It's also a weird route that most people wouldn't use end-to-end: Knutsford-Mobberley-Wilmslow-Hale Barnes-Altrincham. However, seeing 288 Hale Barnes is a strange one. Were there extras which did Altrincham-Hale Barnes only?

It was a Macclesfield to Bollington service, as explained in the caption under the photo. I would not be surprised if it was derived from a Crosville route numbered E7, but that is a guess on my part.

Ah OK I missed that.

 

[madannie77]

Interestingly going back one picture shows a bus saying "288 Hale Barns"

http://madannie.smugmug.com/Buses/Greater-Manchester/Greater-Manchester-1990s/i-qRfdkFp/A

The 288 route is now the 88 route operated by GHA Coaches with half of buses following the original route via Morley Green. It's also a weird route that most people wouldn't use end-to-end: Knutsford-Mobberley-Wilmslow-Hale Barnes-Altrincham. However, seeing 288 Hale Barnes is a strange one. Was there extras which did Altrincham-Hale Barnes only?

Without recourse to my timetables and notebooks I can't say for certain. The Hale Barns local services used to be 285 and 286, but the 288 followed the same route through Hale Barns, so shorts could well have been run.

Alternatively the bus could have been showing the wrong number or destination. It is so long since I took that photo that recollection without notes is impossible. I can't even remember the exact date that I took it.

 

[northwichcat]

Alternatively the bus could have been showing the wrong number or destination.

I suppose that's quite likely as it's sat out-of-service.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The mention made of Hale Barns brings to mind the "Hale Barns Executive Service" that had coffee and newspapers available. This ran very many years ago and I ask if anyone knows who ran the service and when it ceased.

 

[madannie77]

The mention made of Hale Barns brings to mind the "Hale Barns Executive Service" that had coffee and newspapers available. This ran very many years ago and I ask if anyone knows who ran the service and when it ceased.

Stewart J Brown, in Greaster Manchester Buses (Capital Transport) states that SELNEC started a "Hale Barns Express" in April 1970 using new(ish) Bedford VAL coaches. It lasted until March 1981.

The EM60 blog has the same information but with a bit more detail. It is item number 10 in the blog linked to below:

https://mancunian1001.wordpress.com...of-greater-manchester-the-not-so-perfect-ten/

 

[jp4712]

For the E17, you have to go back in history. The late, great and much lamented North Western Road Car Company of Stockport was founded in 1923 and eventually ran services from Northwich in the west to Sheffield in the east, and Saddleworth in the north to Matlock in the south. For a map of the company's services at its height, go to https://flic.kr/p/jSaD3R. It was a Rather Splendid Bus Company.

North Western's service 97 ran between Altrincham and Macclesfield via Wilmslow.

In 1972 the SELNEC PTE wanted to buy the North Western operations in its area and North Western's owners, NBC, obliged. This took away all North Western's most profitable routes and all the rural Peak District and Cheshire routes simply weren't viable on their own; so, to the great regret of staff and passengers alike, the 'rump' was split between Crosville in the west and Trent in the east and the North Western name died (the dormant company name was used again on Merseyside in the 1980s but that was the only connection). Crosville - another great company now departed - tended to split its many routes into 'areas' with prefixes, and the routes in this area were prefixed 'E' and numbered either the same as before or at least similar. So the 97 became the E17. I don't know when it was cut back to operate only between Macc and Wilmslow, sorry.

After privatisation and deregulation both Crosville and Stevenson's became owned by the same holding company and via a complex swap that is far too complex to go into here, Stevenson's ended up running this area's services. Both companies eventually entered the Arriva empire. It seems that the E17 became at least partly tendered, but I simply wanted to explain why it had such an odd service number.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The late, great and much lamented North Western Road Car Company of Stockport was founded in 1923 and eventually ran services from Northwich in the west to Sheffield in the east, and Saddleworth in the north to Matlock in the south. For a map of the company's services at its height, go to https://flic.kr/p/jSaD3R. It was a Rather Splendid Bus Company.

Indeed this was so. Thank you for submitting the service area map, which is worth a thousand words. In my transport archive, I still have the hard-back edition of "North Western (volume 1)" that was published in 1980, 192 pages and 4pp cover which cost £10.00, by The Transport Publishing Company, Glossop. The front cover itself is enough to bring memories flooding back, as it shows a three-quarters elevated view of the Lower Moseley Street bus station with nine buses at the stances and three buses about to enter.

This publication contains the full history of what led up to the formation of the company and many interesting photographic images and takes the story as far as the 1950's, when I would have been in my teens.

 

[northwichcat]

After privatisation and deregulation both Crosville and Stevenson's became owned by the same holding company and via a complex swap that is far too complex to go into here, Stevenson's ended up running this area's services. Both companies eventually entered the Arriva empire. It seems that the E17 became at least partly tendered, but I simply wanted to explain why it had such an odd service number.

I read somewhere that the origin of the 287 and 288 routes was when Shearings registered a 287 Macclesfield-Wilmslow-Altrincham and a 288 Knutsford-Wilmslow-Altrincham service in addition to the E17/8 services that Starline already had, meaning those services got cut back. Then once Shearings stopped operating bus services Starline operated just 287 and 288 services with the 287 service just being Wilmslow-Macclesfield.

The 26/27 route has to the strangest one. It was Starline Travel, then changed to North Western when Starline got taken over. However, then North Western lost the contract to Stevensons and very soon afterwards Stevensons got taken over by British Bus.

 

[madannie77]

The 97 timetable from September 1966:



I also note that the Altrincham to Timperley circular routes were North Western 99 and 99A in 1966: I presume these were changed to 298 and 299 when SELNEC took over and did lots of renumbering.

A query from me this time.

Was the 19 originally one of Bee Line Buzz's routes or was it started by GM Buses as a competing service? Or have I got it all wrong?

EDIT

Just had a look at one of my old photos and I can see a GM Buses minibus at Alltrincham working route A19.

 

[Statto]

After privatisation and deregulation both Crosville and Stevenson's became owned by the same holding company and via a complex swap that is far too complex to go into here, Stevenson's ended up running this area's services. Both companies eventually entered the Arriva empire. It seems that the E17 became at least partly tendered, but I simply wanted to explain why it had such an odd service number.

I seem to remember when Crosville had only Rock Ferry & Chester depots left, Runcorn-Warrington & Winford was devolved into North Western.
Macclesfield to C-Line not sure if they were part of the old B-Line company or stand alone company, think Crewe brought by Midland Red, Stevensons brought Macclesfield before Stevensons themselves brought by British Bus.
North Western already owned by British Bus, but Crewe & Macc went to Midland Red North later Arriva Midlands the other Cheshire depots Arriva North West who closed Warrington depot.

2002 when Crewe & Macc moved to Arriva North West

I remember 1998 Warrington Goldline with the depot think in Newton Le Willows in a bus war with Warrington Borough Transport, Warrington Goldline was owned by North Western.

 

[madannie77]

I remember 1998 Warrington Goldline with the depot think in Newton Le Willows in a bus war with Warrington Borough Transport, Warrington Goldline was owned by North Western.

That bus war in Warrington left me with only North Western services into Warrington from my house and WBT from Warrington to where I worked, which meant I had to pay almost twice as much to travel to work than if it had all been WBT. It was this and the quality of the North Western operation which caused me to resurrect my bicycle at that time!

 

[northwichcat]

Does anyone know anything about the operations of an operator registered under the name of Philip Peter Monk between 2003 and 2005 in Cheshire? I wasn't in the area at the time and noticed he operated the 289 Northwich-Altrincham route, 110 Wilmslow-Handforth and the Rural Rider (RR) routes predominately in the Macclesfield area.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I seem to remember when Crosville had only Rock Ferry & Chester depots left, Runcorn-Warrington & Winford was devolved into North Western.
Macclesfield to C-Line not sure if they were part of the old B-Line company or stand alone company, think Crewe brought by Midland Red, Stevensons brought Macclesfield before Stevensons themselves brought by British Bus.
North Western already owned by British Bus, but Crewe & Macc went to Midland Red North later Arriva Midlands the other Cheshire depots Arriva North West who closed Warrington depot.

2002 when Crewe & Macc moved to Arriva North West

I remember 1998 Warrington Goldline with the depot think in Newton Le Willows in a bus war with Warrington Borough Transport, Warrington Goldline was owned by North Western.

It's a very murky story but here goes (and apologies if I get the odd thing wrong).....

Crosville was split into two halves in 1986. The Welsh part (incl Oswestry) was Crosville Wales and was bought as an MBO but then purchased by National Express who then sold it on to to Drawlane in the early 1990s.

The remaining English operations were sold to a bunch of chancers called ATL Holdings who, IIRC, also owned Yelloway and bought National Travel East as well as the Neoplan dealership in Dinnington. The coach ops withered as they used the bases for commercial and tendered ops in Manchester and Sheffield.

Drawlane bought four NBC subsidiaries at privatisation (Shamrock & Rambler, Midland Red North, North Western and London Country SW) which was the maximum any firm could buy but it transpired that there was another firm (Allied Bus?) that they had strong links to and who had been given preferred bidder status for United Auto and Lincolnshire, IIRC. This was promptly removed. However, it became clear after privatisation that there seemed to be some rather strong links between Drawlane and ATL. Note that Dawson Williams, a noted industry individual, was involved at this time.

Crosville had some difficulties with long standing IR issues that culminated in the closure of their Liverpool depot, and the decision was taken to break the business up. The Rock Ferry, Ellesmer Port and Chester depots were sold to PMT (who had already set up ops at Moreton in the Wirral).

The remaining operations were sold to Drawlane being split with Runcorn, Winsford and Warrington to North Western and Oswestry, Crewe and Macc to Midland Red North (I think). Macc retained C-Line identity for a while and brunswick green livery, whilst the former East Midland Frontrunner operations were bought from Stagecoach and added to the mix.

There were strong links with Julian Peddle and Drawlane and hence the complex sets of deals that saw deals in the Stockport area etc that I didn't understand then and don't recall now

Under Arriva ownership, the Winsford operations were also part of Arriva Midlands North but it was later (with Macc and Crewe) transferred back to Arriva North West. The former Crosville Wales outbase at Llandiloes/Abermule also became Midland Red North and then oscillated between the two businesses.

So, crystal clear then....

 

[northwichcat]

Under Arriva ownership, the Winsford operations were also part of Arriva Midlands North but it was later (with Macc and Crewe) transferred back to Arriva North West. The former Crosville Wales outbase at Llandiloes/Abermule also became Midland Red North and then oscillated between the two businesses.

So, crystal clear then....

Winsford took over some of the former Starline Travel work when the Knutsford depot was closed. That led to the former Starline Travel 300 route (Knutsford Circular) being operated by Arriva Midlands North (from Winsford), with the former Starline Travel 288 route (Knutsford-Wilmslow-Altrincham) being operated by Arriva North West (from Wythenshawe.) :roll:

I've got a feeling Winsford became Arriva North West around the time they took over Nova Scotia.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Winsford took over some of the former Starline Travel work when the Knutsford depot was closed. That led to the former Starline Travel 300 route (Knutsford Circular) being operated by Arriva Midlands North (from Winsford), with the former Starline Travel 288 route (Knutsford-Wilmslow-Altrincham) being operated by Arriva North West (from Wythenshawe.) :roll:

I've got a feeling Winsford became Arriva North West around the time they took over Nova Scotia.

It's a bit confusing on that bit so forgive me if I'm not quite right but I recall Nova Scotia getting bought c.1999. I was living and working in Manchester/Cheshire at the time.

However, I think Winsford moving to ANW was a bit later only because I remember them getting a pair of ex United Leyland Tigers with Alx Q type bodies transferred from Arriva Mids at Stafford. They'd been swapped for a pair of Deltas in 1999 and did a few years down there and Oswestry before they then ended up at Winsford before it was transferred to ANW.