Forthcoming Fareham block

[pompeyfan]

When Fareham area is shut for over a week, South West Trains will be running a shuttle service from Southampton central to Swanwick all stops except Hamble and Burseldon. Any idea as to how they'll make this work? I assume they'll run to Swanwick, then run wrong line back up to Netley and use the crossover there?

Also is there any reason why the Botley line can't make use of the shunt signals around Botley? I'm sure there's a reason but seems a waste of a path etc.

 

[swt_passenger]

Crossover at Netley is the usual way they do Swanwick short workings from the Southampton end, as you say they reverse on the down line back as far as Netley. I think a NR pilotman is embarked for the Netley - Swanwick move, which isn't signalled.

In your latter case, I expect the shunt facilities at Botley are only ground signals, and in normal circumstances a passenger train cannot use them. But there are ways of using hand signallers if they really wanted to. I've seen hand signallers used to overcome the same problem at Fareham, where the route north from P3 is not fully signalled.

I think that this was asked about when the embankment failure occurred just south of Botley, and they never ran a service from the Eastleigh direction then, perhaps they don't believe passenger numbers justify it, but I don't really know.

 

[pompeyfan]

Would imagine the Swanwick this is using a pilotman working to and from a point of obstruction.

Botley in the down you could terminate there, kick everyone off shunt towards Fareham and then run back into platform 1 using the single line. I believe the landslip on the Botley line was actually towards hedge end although I may be very wrong.

 

[swt_passenger]

Botley in the down you could terminate there, kick everyone off shunt towards Fareham and then run back into platform 1 using the single line. I believe the landslip on the Botley line was actually towards hedge end although I may be very wrong.

It seems feasible, but perhaps they cannot isolate the third rail (which is a bit of a poor show, because surely it could be justified to temporarily cut and isolate it for a ten day period?)

The big embankment failure's location was very definitely about a mile south of Botley, it is now visible on Google satellite view here: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place...e0fc690961a386c!8m2!3d50.9154703!4d-1.2757473

 

[pompeyfan]

Why would 3rd rail need to be isolated to turn back at Botley? or are you suggesting to isolate Fareham would involve the current at Botley would have to be knocked out?

Oh right I see fair enough, thanks for clarifying.

 

[swt_passenger]

Why would 3rd rail need to be isolated to turn back at Botley? or are you suggesting to isolate Fareham would involve the current at Botley would have to be knocked out?

The latter, and just thinking aloud really. There's a DC supply point right at the junction at Botley. It may be that if the third rail is energised there it is live all the way into a worksite. I've never been sure if they 'end feed' to some mid point, or if the supplies are connected together along the line, so in effect dual fed from both ends at once?

Of course they may even be doing further work on the single line section anyway, it would be a sensible time to do it to make best use of the closure at Fareham.

 

[mugam4]

Crossover at Netley is the usual way they do Swanwick short workings from the Southampton end, as you say they reverse on the down line back as far as Netley. I think a NR pilotman is embarked for the Netley - Swanwick move, which isn't signalled.

Is the use of the pilotman the reason that the Hamble and Bursledon calls are being omitted? I note that they don't seem to be on the first train

 

[pompeyfan]

Possibly I suppose, I'm not sure why it would make a difference though as Netley will still be under pilotman control as the crossover is Southampton side of Netley, so the pilotman shouldn't have been released. Could it be pathing reasons?

 

[pompeyfan]

Does anyone know where the GWR units that usually stable at Fratton are staying? I've tried looking at RTT but the times don't match up.

 

[swt_passenger]

Does anyone know where the GWR units that usually stable at Fratton are staying? I've tried looking at RTT but the times don't match up.

The penultimate GWR arrival at Southampton tonight runs back to Westbury, then the last arrival shunts into platform 5 overnight and comes back out and forms the first Cardiff tomorrow morning. That seems to happen all week. There's no need to provide for a second unit in the area because (from Fratton depot) that would normally form the first service to Brighton, those are cancelled all week.

5F37 P3 > P5 http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/V98684/2016/10/23/advanced
5F06 P5 > P3 http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/V42533/2016/10/24/advanced

To do that there must be a change to the SWT unit that normally stables there overnight, 5B77, and that appears to be running to Northam depot for the week.

 

[pompeyfan]

Cheers for that, I did try and find it but suppose didn't recognise the shunt. Is there another dead run in the morning from Westbury to Southampton, or does the fact there's no SOU-PMH - SOU leg mean they need less units?

Maybe we'll see 4/5/6 coach units?

 

[swt_passenger]

Cheers for that, I did try and find it but suppose didn't recognise the shunt. Is there another dead run in the morning from Westbury to Southampton, or does the fact there's no SOU-PMH - SOU leg mean they need less units?

AFAICS the morning southbound from Westbury is the normal passenger service just shortened at Southampton, likewise the evening return is normally a short working in passenger service TO Westbury. They've just removed the bits east of Southampton but they run in the normal times.

They should have about three units spare, as it is roughly an hour (rounded) each way to Portsmouth, which would make two available, and the missing Brightons presumably give up about one unit over a whole day?

 

[pompeyfan]

I see, thanks for that.

 

[Right Away]

The GWR services that would normally run to or from Brighton are a bit of a pain as there isn't sufficient capacity at Southampton to stable the sets for a few hours, requiring some empty stock moves for the week.

3Z94 09:18 Westbury to Southampton Central (10:28) , then works 1V94 10:42 Southampton Central to Great Malvern.

1O98 10:50 Great Malvern to Southampton Central (14:32), then works 5Z98 14:55 Southampton Central to Salisbury East Carriage Holding Sidings (15:35).

3Z96 17:40 Salisbury East Carriage Holding Sidings to Southampton Central (18:23), then works 1V96 18:43 Southampton Central to Bristol Temple Meads.

Regards.

 

[swt_passenger]

Something else I missed originally is that SWT's Southampton - Swanwick service is 2 tph on weekdays during the blockade. So that has a slight impact on the earlier point about Netley - Swanwick timings and pilotman working etc.

I assume SWT are therefore effectively running this second service on behalf of Southern, as SN bustitution is starting at Swanwick rather than Southampton Central (SOU). (There are a couple of very early and very late SN buses to SOU, but not during the main part of the day.)

 

[swt class 450]

Can i ask what is a pilotman? I cant see anything that would prevent them from stopping at Bursledon / Hamble when they are able to call at Netley / Sholing / Woolston / Bitterne as normal?

 

[swt_passenger]

Can i ask what is a pilotman? I cant see anything that would prevent them from stopping at Bursledon / Hamble when they are able to call at Netley / Sholing / Woolston / Bitterne as normal?

A pilotman is basically a 'human token', in this case used used temporarily on a section that is not reversibly signalled. There is only one pilotman, so trains cannot move without him (or her).

From what I've worked out there is not enough time to run from whichever stop signal it is that protects the area of temporary working, down to Swanwick and back to the signal on the opposite line. The signals I'm referring to are between Sholing and Netley, so the half hour to do the return trip is not measured from leaving Netley to Swanwick and back, but from a signal somewhere west of Netley to Swanwick, and back. The crossover at the Southampton end of Netley station is manually controlled, therefore once you add an amount of time to report pilot is on the train then passing through the signal at danger with authority, report arrival at Swanwick, change ends, receive confirmation the points are operated to the correct state for the out and return trips, etc etc, there isn't time for the extra four station calls.

I'm not sure, but the pilotman may get onboard and off again at the protecting signal between Sholing and Netley, and it has to be done safely and without rushing, as he will have to cross the line between the signals, avoiding the third rail etc...

 

[pompeyfan]

I haven't got the documentation to hand, so I'm sure Mr Taylor can correct me, but the instruction is stop and load pilotman at signal protecting Netley, proceed as normal fast to Swanwick, change ends, get authority, fast to Netley, set points, clear points, stop adj to signal protecting Netley, release pilotman, continue as normal. Looking at RTT there's only 10 minutes between a train heading for Southampton and a train heading for Swanwick, if each station call costs 2 minutes (if you include getting from and to linespeed) then knock-on delays could add up very quickly.

 

[swt_passenger]

I haven't got the documentation to hand, so I'm sure Mr Taylor can correct me, but the instruction is stop and load pilotman at signal protecting Netley, proceed as normal fast to Swanwick, change ends, get authority, fast to Netley, set points, clear points, stop adj to signal protecting Netley, release pilotman, continue as normal. Looking at RTT there's only 10 minutes between a train heading for Southampton and a train heading for Swanwick, if each station call costs 2 minutes (if you include getting from and to linespeed) then knock-on delays could add up very quickly.

Timed it this afternoon, I think the key thing is to time from signal and back, as departures from Netley are within the restriction area. It was 27 mins between coming to a halt at E805 to take onboard the pilotman, and moving away again towards Southampton after returning the pilotman to trackside opposite E805 again.

 

[pompeyfan]

That's exactly what I found today. On the whole it seems to work reasonably well. Only issue I could see was the PIS at Netley didn't know which train was which.

 

[swt_passenger]

That's exactly what I found today. On the whole it seems to work reasonably well. Only issue I could see was the PIS at Netley didn't know which train was which.

Did you hear the automatic "ASDO fault" announcement on return back to Netley, because the doors were enabled without passing over a platform end balise?

Same effect as that problem people were discussing a few weeks ago, where the doors were enabled between stations, IIRC it was somewhere near Clapham Junction? Wonder if it would be more reassuring to passengers to switch the ASDO off for the duration of the single line reversal, or would that not be in line with the ASDO operation policy?

 

[pompeyfan]

My train didn't have an ASDO fault and we stopped smack in the middle of the platform so wouldn't have passed over a beacon. ASDO faults trigger a return to default which is 4 cars on a 450 or 3 cars on a 444. This can be overridden by the driver with permission providing the train is fully accommodated. I wouldn't have thought an ASDO fault would make any difference on a Netley run.

The Clapham incident sounds concerning but this is the first I've heard. Do you have any further details?

 

[Bigfoot]

My train didn't have an ASDO fault and we stopped smack in the middle of the platform so wouldn't have passed over a beacon. ASDO faults trigger a return to default which is 4 cars on a 450 or 3 cars on a 444. This can be overridden by the driver with permission providing the train is fully accommodated. I wouldn't have thought an ASDO fault would make any difference on a Netley run.

The Clapham incident sounds concerning but this is the first I've heard. Do you have any further details?

This "incident" sounds nothing more than the default message played when a guard leaves their door key on and the train stops at a signal. Which the guard shouldn't of course but we all make mistakes. Certainly isn't dangerous...

 

[swt_passenger]

My train didn't have an ASDO fault and we stopped smack in the middle of the platform so wouldn't have passed over a beacon. ASDO faults trigger a return to default which is 4 cars on a 450 or 3 cars on a 444. This can be overridden by the driver with permission providing the train is fully accommodated. I wouldn't have thought an ASDO fault would make any difference on a Netley run.

The Clapham incident sounds concerning but this is the first I've heard. Do you have any further details?

It cropped up in a thread a few weeks ago here:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2751431
As was discussed then, and as just pointed out by Bigfoot it wasn't a real fault as such, it was just the system failing safe, as it has in the two cases I arrived at Netley in the wrong direction on Monday and Tuesday. However as far as normal pax are concerned it is clearly announced as a door fault, so that's what they will assume.

Perhaps on your call at Netley it had been pre-emptively switched off, which is what I was actually getting at earlier.