Gag Halfrunt
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France to ban some domestic flights where train available
MPs vote to suspend internal flights if the trip can be completed by train within two and a half hours instead
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France to ban some domestic flights where train available
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LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
The French government originally proposed a ban on short domestic flights where direct train services of less than 4 hours were available.
The French parliament has now approved the measure, but watered down to train times of less than 2.5 hours, meaning that many medium-distance flights will continue.
It largely affects flights to Paris Orly airport, which mostly hosts domestic flights.
Flights continue to CDG airport to provide long-haul connections.
The 4-hour limit would have banned many flights between Paris and places like Toulouse, Marseille, Montpellier and Basel.
The 2.5 hour limit will cover as far as Bordeaux, Lyon, Besancon, Strasbourg and Nantes, and maybe as far as Valence.
Cross-border services (eg Paris-Brussels/London) are not affected, as it would be against EU competition rules.
Although the greens/left were annoyed at the reduced limit, there were concerns that SNCF would use the lack of competition to reduce services and hike fares.
The measure affects all domestic flights, many of which are operated by LCCs like easyJet and Ryanair (who objected to any limit).
More details here:
France to ban some domestic flights where train available | Air France/KLM | The Guardian
PS Sorry, took too long to assemble this piece and was beaten to it!
The French parliament has now approved the measure, but watered down to train times of less than 2.5 hours, meaning that many medium-distance flights will continue.
It largely affects flights to Paris Orly airport, which mostly hosts domestic flights.
Flights continue to CDG airport to provide long-haul connections.
The 4-hour limit would have banned many flights between Paris and places like Toulouse, Marseille, Montpellier and Basel.
The 2.5 hour limit will cover as far as Bordeaux, Lyon, Besancon, Strasbourg and Nantes, and maybe as far as Valence.
Cross-border services (eg Paris-Brussels/London) are not affected, as it would be against EU competition rules.
Although the greens/left were annoyed at the reduced limit, there were concerns that SNCF would use the lack of competition to reduce services and hike fares.
The measure affects all domestic flights, many of which are operated by LCCs like easyJet and Ryanair (who objected to any limit).
More details here:
France to ban some domestic flights where train available | Air France/KLM | The Guardian
PS Sorry, took too long to assemble this piece and was beaten to it!
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biko
Member
Very good news I think. It gives a good signal that flying such distances where the train is just as quick is unnecessary.
Peter Sarf
Established Member
I am hoping HS2 encourages the same possibilities in the UK. But how soon !.
As many TGV/Thalys/Eurostar long distance services serve (or could easily serve) Paris CDG I think many using CDG may use the train instead of the connecting flights anyway. However it depends whether the airlines offer a connection via train within the air ticket price (eg as some do for transatlantic flights). Faced with a "free" connecting flight and luggage taken away at point of departure, or paying for a TGV and then having to check in at CDG, most I suspect would prefer the flight.
The 4 hour rule would have killed some longer distance inter-regional flights, which could have presented headaches for those travelling Bordeaux-Lyon for example. Until cross country connections improved and sped up air will always compete to a degree.
The 4 hour rule would have killed some longer distance inter-regional flights, which could have presented headaches for those travelling Bordeaux-Lyon for example. Until cross country connections improved and sped up air will always compete to a degree.
Royston Vasey
Established Member
Yes two and a half hours from a non-HS2 connected Heathrow, or indeed Gatwick, gets you about as far as Newark, Bristol or Birmingham!
The Germans in particular are so much better at running high speed rail lines through their airport stations.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
Air France and Lufthansa already have TGV/Thalys/ICE legs bookable in their flight systems of course, to CDG and Frankfurt airports respectively (and Munich?).
So they have already cut flights on the routes involved. The rail legs count in their loyalty schemes.
Integrated flight/rail ticketing is also available in Switzerland and Austria.
Something else we don't seem to have implemented here.
I think the nearest we came to airline integration was some Virgin Trains tickets earned you credit in Virgin Atlantic's loyalty scheme.
During the 90s BR Intercity had worked up a loyalty scheme with Delta Air Lines before the axe on such schemes came down during privatisation preparations.
So they have already cut flights on the routes involved. The rail legs count in their loyalty schemes.
Integrated flight/rail ticketing is also available in Switzerland and Austria.
Something else we don't seem to have implemented here.
I think the nearest we came to airline integration was some Virgin Trains tickets earned you credit in Virgin Atlantic's loyalty scheme.
During the 90s BR Intercity had worked up a loyalty scheme with Delta Air Lines before the axe on such schemes came down during privatisation preparations.
A very forward-thinking public transport strategy. I did see that the airlines got their way a little bit with the 4hr -> 2hr30 journey time. To be honest, that would almost be every single one in Great Britain as Glasgow to Gatwick is approximately 90 minutes. And many of our city airports are rather poorly connected (with the exception of London and Manchester, maybe Birmingham if I'm feeling generous) or have a token tram / metro.
This wouldn't be possible here of course without HS2 for the Scottish and major Northern cities. Other places in West and South West are generally well covered by Cornish Mainline and GWML at reasonable speeds (although decreasing past Devon).
This wouldn't be possible here of course without HS2 for the Scottish and major Northern cities. Other places in West and South West are generally well covered by Cornish Mainline and GWML at reasonable speeds (although decreasing past Devon).
squizzler
Established Member
I wonder what opportunity SNCF has to put on infrequent, “parliamentary” style nonstop thrashings between city pairs that squeak under the 2.5hr limit, thereby rendering a competing air service unlawful?
BananaRepublic
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There's a large element of greenwash in this ruling, as it will only affect a few city pair routes.
The ban was proposed to get wide political backing for the French government's massive bailout for Air France.
As already mentioned above, domestic flights from Paris CDG, the main international hub, are not included.
EasyJet operate (in normal times) something like 37 domestic routes in France. None are affected by this ban.
Similarly, Ryanair's 6 domestic routes are also unaffected.
The ban was proposed to get wide political backing for the French government's massive bailout for Air France.
As already mentioned above, domestic flights from Paris CDG, the main international hub, are not included.
EasyJet operate (in normal times) something like 37 domestic routes in France. None are affected by this ban.
Similarly, Ryanair's 6 domestic routes are also unaffected.
I'd think there's capacity on the non LGV routes for places like Tours, Poitiers, Angers (perhaps), Dijon, Clermont Ferrand to secure a sub-2.5 hour service to Paris. Youtube has some video of non-stop services during lockdown including a creditable 85mph average loco hauled TER run Paris to Tours. I'm not sure how much capacity there is on the LGV, but I'd imagine Avignon is only just over 2.5 hrs if given a clear nonstop run. If they could accelerate some of the non LGV back to 200km/h running (many loco hauled TER are limited to 160km/h) and provide the resources to run these fast trains I'm sure they would be popular.
Yep we had this discussion before. It doesn’t actually ban flights, but only bans airlines from selling domestic only tickets on flights where there is a rail alternative with a journey time of less than 2 1/2 hours. In reality, this affects the handful of flights from Paris to each of Lyon, Bordeaux, Rennes and Nantes. Of course with the removal of those passengers there will be less demand, and there might well be a reduction in flights, but it might be a reduction of a total of, say , 10 daily flights to or from all these destinations combined (from around 30 today). To put that into context that’s compared to nearly 60 flights daily between Paris and Nice.
In this country, such a policy would basically be removing the ability to buy a stand alone London to Manchester airline ticket. I’m led to believe that’s about 150,000 passengers a year: that’s about a third of a Pendolino each way every day.
Except for Clement Ferrand, none of these places has a competing air route. And I doubt it would be feasible to take an hour out of the Clermont Ferrand journey time.
In this country, such a policy would basically be removing the ability to buy a stand alone London to Manchester airline ticket. I’m led to believe that’s about 150,000 passengers a year: that’s about a third of a Pendolino each way every day.
Except for Clement Ferrand, none of these places has a competing air route. And I doubt it would be feasible to take an hour out of the Clermont Ferrand journey time.
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WatcherZero
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Yes, so there can still be connecting flights, they just wont be able to sell tickets for the connection alone.
Austriantrain
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Sounds like a placebo. Where trains take no more than 2,5 hours from city center to city center, the potential for air - connecting traffic aside - is likely to be minimal as it is.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
That's the rail journey time, not by air.
So in UK terms a 2.5 hour rail limit would include Liverpool/Manchester/Leeds/Bristol/Cardiff, which have no or very limited air service to London anyway.
HS2b would bring Newcastle into the limit, if built as planned.
Hardly any cross-country air journeys would be affected, nothing from London to Scotland/NI/SW England and very little in Wales.
It also seems the final analysis of routes will be done by the French government before implementation.
Glasgow to Gatwick by train it isn't 90 mins and its the train journey time that counts. I've only flown from Manchester for onward connecting international flights from Heathrow and frankly its much more convenient than the alternatives, but I guess you can make an argument to stop Manchester London flights except for that reason, but then again I knew someone who lived near Leeds/Bradford Airport and flew to London fairly regularly for work and it was far more convenient for him than the train, but then again the airlines have struggled with the financial viability of that service anyway.
TheGrew
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I too have done Manchester to Heathrow for connection reasons but would have preferred to have gone by train if two things were true:
- Easy connectivity to Heathrow by train, as far as I am concerned HS2 will greatly improve this with a simple single change at Old Oak Common.
- Through inter-mode combined ticketing similar to what I believe Thalys does on some services.
My mistake, as you say it won't make a massive difference especially as many regional airports are miles away from a train station or have a token service.
It may be a valid argument when HS2 arrives but not really until then.
GRALISTAIR
Established Member
Indeed. France of course already has the infrastructure. The UK does not. It would not be fair to do this in the UK until the infrastructure i.e. HS2 is in place to enable it.
It's only a marginal problem in the UK surely, since most English cities and even Glasgow and Edinburgh are more conveniently linked by rail. What we do need though are for Eurostar and rail journeys to mainline Europe to be competitive price wise. Many people would prefer to travel by train at least to the nearest countries, but it's hard to resist bargain-basement air fares.
Peter Sarf
Established Member
Two years ago we took the granddaughter and parents to Paris by Eurostar. Starting from Croydon it was a toss up between StPancras and Gatwick. What swung it was my promise of accommodation within walking distance of Gare Du Nord and the fact the the missus does not like flying. Time was not really analysed much but cost was a bit tricky. Advantage was we got a cheap and early train so had a fairly full first day in Paris. I remember we hit the Louvre early afternoon and Granddaughter (age 4 at the time) coped with 4 hours of art but Dad was cracking up !. Nowadays you can factor in Covid so you could add to the equation the chance of fresher air and better social distancing on a Eurostar.
I wonder if Eurostar will be around for much longer as they seemed to be going bust ?. I am sure the assets will be bought up and used though. Mind you there are going to be plenty of airplanes ready to shoulder the load
.I wonder if Eurostar will be around for much longer as they seemed to be going bust ?. I am sure the assets will be bought up and used though. Mind you there are going to be plenty of airplanes ready to shoulder the load
If (and it’s a big if) Eurostar go bust, the assets will be bought by someone and it will be back in business. But there’s another thread for that.
With HS2 and a connection at Old Oak Common, Liverpool/Preston/Manchester and Leeds/York/Sheffield all easily come into that threshold.
I presume the French proposal relates to city centre times, in which case Newcastle (just), Plymouth and Newquay are the only English air routes that would survive.
Austriantrain
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Not if you follow the French example. Connections - AFAIU - remain allowed, so getting to Heathrow would not be relevant. London itself would be, but I suspect - without really knowing of course - almost no one takes the plane from the cities you mentioned to reach London itself.
As I wrote before, IMO the French legislation is basically useless.
From London, perhaps, noting that Plymouth airport closed to commercial aviation a decade ago.
But plenty of cross country routes would continue, as would every route to or from Scotland.
Giugiaro
Member
2.5 hours is quite a very sensible target on many domestic Schengen flights.
With 3 hours of journey time between the centre of Porto and Lisbon, the Alfa Pendular already beats TAP's "Air Bridge" by a couple of minutes, even though the competition had the airway passenger not carry any luggage, or checking-in at the airport, and both passengers not relying on taxi-cabs.
Considering that most EU countries already have very sensible and high quality high speed connections, those 2.5 hours account for a much further journey than the 300km stretch between the two Portuguese cities and its rather derelict Northern Line.
With 3 hours of journey time between the centre of Porto and Lisbon, the Alfa Pendular already beats TAP's "Air Bridge" by a couple of minutes, even though the competition had the airway passenger not carry any luggage, or checking-in at the airport, and both passengers not relying on taxi-cabs.
Considering that most EU countries already have very sensible and high quality high speed connections, those 2.5 hours account for a much further journey than the 300km stretch between the two Portuguese cities and its rather derelict Northern Line.
Jamesrob637
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Apart from down south. Stuttgart and München are only served by regional trains.
Royston Vasey
Established Member
My two most used German airports and you're quite right! Although the Stuttgart-Ulm-Augsberg high speed upgrade will address one of these.
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