Freedom of Severn & Solent - valid on LM + SN?

Status
Not open for further replies.

CC 72100

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2012
Messages
3,636
Now I'm no-where near as good as some of the people on this site so please bear with me if the answer is pretty obvious.

Just been doing a bit of playing around on NRE, and in particular the Freedom of Severn + Solent (available as a 3 in 7 or 8 in 15) which seems excellent value indeed.

My query is that under the section 'Train companies' ATW, FGW, XC, and SWT are listed, however London Midland and Southern are not.

Given that one can travel from Great Malvern to Worcester Foregate street on the ticket, as well as Portsmouth Harbour - Fratton, both of these journeys could be made on LM and SN respectively, why are they not listed in the eligible train companies section?

It would meet the after 9am weekday criteria, and it fall under "unlimited use of all National Rail services on the map in the validity section" (ie. the mapped area)

So why aren't London Midland and Southern shown? Is it just a simple oversight, or can you not actually use these services, despite them meeting all other conditions of the ticket?

Thanks in advance, just hypothetical at the moment but useful to know :)

(Link to page for it on NRE here http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/promotions/pr1c94e40a0400020191e8b12e8fa4b2/details.html )
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Eagle

Established Member
Joined
20 Feb 2011
Messages
7,106
Location
Leamingrad / Blanfrancisco
I'm surprised that Southern aren't mentioned, as they run half-hourly from Southampton to Cosham (and now also to Eastleigh occasionally), which makes up half of the services along the Solent for which this ticket is named...
 

CC 72100

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2012
Messages
3,636
I'm surprised that Southern aren't mentioned, as they run half-hourly from Southampton to Cosham (and now also to Eastleigh occasionally), which makes up half of the services along the Solent for which this ticket is named...

Ah right, I'll admit I didn't look at LDBs for Southampton Central, otherwise I'd have realised. Can anyone share any light on LM/SN validity?
 

Ivo

Established Member
Joined
8 Jan 2010
Messages
7,307
Location
Bath (or Southend)
I can find a few matches for the word "Freedom" on SN's website, but none are relevant. I can find a few matches for the word "Severn" on SN's website, but none are relevant. I can find a few matches for the word "Solent" on SN's website, but none are relevant.

I can find only one match for the word "Freedom" on LM's website, which relates to a different Rover. I can find a few matches for the word "Severn" on LM's website, but none are relevant. I cannot find any matches for the word "Solent" on LM's website.
 

Brucey

Member
Joined
7 Jan 2010
Messages
670
If you can pick up a FGW branded leaflet, it says "Valid on all services within the area shown on the map", or words to that effect. It does not state which TOCs it is valid on.

After enquiring myself at a FGW station, the clerk checked The Manual and also looked at the leaflet. They agreed it was ambiguous, but told me to err on the side of caution and just stick to AW, SW, GW and XC.
 

jkdd77

Member
Joined
16 Nov 2008
Messages
557
If you can pick up a FGW branded leaflet, it says "Valid on all services within the area shown on the map", or words to that effect. It does not state which TOCs it is valid on.

After enquiring myself at a FGW station, the clerk checked The Manual and also looked at the leaflet. They agreed it was ambiguous, but told me to err on the side of caution and just stick to AW, SW, GW and XC.

Surely, NRCoC condition 10 applies here:
10. Tickets valid only in trains of particular Train Companies
The validity of a ticket may:
a) be restricted to; or
b) prohibit
travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies. Any such restriction or prohibition will be shown on the ticket. ...

In the absence of any such restriction shown on the ticket, I would say it is valid on all scheduled operators.
 

Brucey

Member
Joined
7 Jan 2010
Messages
670
Surely, NRCoC condition 10 applies here:
10. Tickets valid only in trains of particular Train Companies
The validity of a ticket may:
a) be restricted to; or
b) prohibit
travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies. Any such restriction or prohibition will be shown on the ticket. ...

In the absence of any such restriction shown on the ticket, I would say it is valid on all scheduled operators.
The ticket says "Validity: As Advertised". I therefore believe it is reasonable for condition 10 to be extended to include any such advertisements for said ticket.
 

ian13

Member
Joined
17 Jul 2008
Messages
166
The ticket says "Validity: As Advertised". I therefore believe it is reasonable for condition 10 to be extended to include any such advertisements for said ticket.

"unlimited use of all National Rail services on the map in the validity section" (ie. the mapped area)

Pretty much covers it. It's advertised as being on all services on the mapped area - therefore it is. Whether other TOCs have agreed or get a share of the revenue is irrelevant - both SN and LM are part of the RSP.
 

SWTCommuter

Member
Joined
17 Oct 2009
Messages
318
For what it's worth, I have used the Freedom of South West rover on London Midland services between Great Malvern and Worcester a few times without any problems.

Here's a link to a PDF the Great Western rovers leaflet.
http://fgw.2020apps.co.uk/Documents...Rovers - Devon CornwallL_107_0410 FOR WEB.pdf

The terms and conditions on the FGW website
http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Terms-and-conditions/South-West-Rover-terms-and-conditions
state that the rovers are valid on
0849 Hereford to Worcester Foregate Street (train continues to Birmingham New Street)
0858 Great Malvern to Worcester Shrub Hill (train continues to Birmingham New Street)

The 0849 is a London Midland service, though it's odd that it's mentioned as Hereford is outside the area and it doesn't get to into the area until after 0900.
The 0858 is also mentioned in the leaflet though it doesn't seem to run any more but, as it continued to Birmingham, it was presumably also a London Midland service.


I hope this is of some help and hasn't just added to the confusion.
 

TEW

Established Member
Joined
16 May 2008
Messages
5,412
I've used the ticket before on both LM and SN, asking the guards just to check and have never had any problems.
 

CC 72100

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2012
Messages
3,636
Thanks all for your help, all duly noted. :)

It is ambigously written, which would suggest that it is more likely to be an oversight, as on second thoughts, if you were distinctly not allowed to use Southern and LM would it say so? As it's been pointed out, it's after 9 am, it's in the area marked out on the map, and nobody as yet has come on here with a story of it not being accepted on either of the TOCs in question.
 

Paul Kelly

Verified Rep - BR Fares
Joined
16 Apr 2010
Messages
3,768
Location
Reading
The ticket says "Validity: As Advertised". I therefore believe it is reasonable for condition 10 to be extended to include any such advertisements for said ticket.

I don't agree! It says any restriction or prohibition will be shown on the ticket. I don't think that indicating that there may or may not be a restriction advertised elsewhere, counts as showing that restriction on the ticket. It certainly doesn't seem to be the intended meaning anyway.
 

ian13

Member
Joined
17 Jul 2008
Messages
166
I don't agree! It says any restriction or prohibition will be shown on the ticket. I don't think that indicating that there may or may not be a restriction advertised elsewhere, counts as showing that restriction on the ticket. It certainly doesn't seem to be the intended meaning anyway.

Then one could argue that the ticket is valid across the network. There has to be some reasonable boundary drawn.
 

wintonian

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2010
Messages
4,889
Location
Hampshire
I'm pretty sure that this is another mistake on NRE (a lot of the prices listed seem to be last years for example) and it is valid on both SN & LM - why wouldn't it be?

The only 'gotcha' to watch out for is that it is not valid from Eastleigh to Fareham.
 

TEW

Established Member
Joined
16 May 2008
Messages
5,412
Not having LM and SN listed does seem to be intentional, I can't remember anywhere that has listed valid TOCs listing those two.
 

GadgetMan

Member
Joined
9 Jan 2012
Messages
892
According to the manual;

Monday to Friday: Valid from 09:00*, plus the following additional trains:

07:22 Axminster - Sailsbury (train continues to London Waterloo)

08:00 Axminster - Sailsbury (train continues to London Waterloo)

08:27 Swindon to Exeter St Davids (train continues to Penzance)

08:36 Taunton to Bristol Parkway

08:39 Patchway to Paignton

08:49 Hereford to Worcester Foregate Street (train continues to Birmingham New Street)

08:53 Weymouth to Gloucester

08:54 Swindon to Cheltenham Spa

08:50 Great Malvern to Westbury

*This restriction is lifted on First Great Western services from 24 December 2012 to 1 January 2013 inclusive.

The bit in bold is a LM service as mentioned by a post further up.
 

jkdd77

Member
Joined
16 Nov 2008
Messages
557
Then one could argue that the ticket is valid across the network. There has to be some reasonable boundary drawn.

The boundary is, of course, the Severn and Solent area. No-one is suggesting that the rover ticket is valid outside of that area.

In any case, case and statute law provides that any ambiguity in a contract set by a business between a business and a consumer must be read in favour of the consumer.
 

TEW

Established Member
Joined
16 May 2008
Messages
5,412
Do you mean unintentional?

Your post seems a bit unclear to me.

No, wherever I have seen a list of TOCs that the Rover may be valid on, LM and SN have been omitted, it seems intentional to me. I know the National Rail site did have a few errors regarding the maps before and nowhere seems to agree on the time restrictions.
 

wintonian

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2010
Messages
4,889
Location
Hampshire
Has anyone tried, I don't know, contacting Southern or LM and asking them? :P

Well southern's guards always seem quite happy to me, no idea about LM that's far too much a slog to endure just to find out but on the 1 or 2 occasions I have FoSSed it on that stretch I don't recall seeing a guard, however they do like WMDR's.

I still think they do accept them and its just an error, but clarification would be nice.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top