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Freight Electrification for North Scrapped

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Bevan Price

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Even if the Pennine route was electrified I cannot think of any existing freight flows ** via Huddersfield, or via Calder Valley that would not still need to use diesel power at either end of their routes. Only if their entire routes were electrified would it not make sense to ensure that Trans Pennine electrification was freight-compatible.

** e,g. Immingham / Ribble (Preston); Leeds /Tunstead; Knowsley /Wilton (waste); Liverpool /Drax (biomass); Redcar /Fiddlers Ferry (coal), etc.

The only total nonsense would be failure to electrify the steepest section of the route (Stalybridge / Huddersfield), where the most performance would be gained by using electric traction.
 
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DarloRich

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Nonsense. The government has the authority to create as much new money as it likes if it so chooses. All things in the wish list could be paid for tomorrow if the will was there, the price we all would pay would be increased prices due to inflation, which is why you don't do it willy-nilly. If there is sufficient return on the investment then it would be foolish not to do so if possible, all other factors considered. Pretending the country's finances are anything remotely like managing the budget of a household or business is extremely disingenuous technique used to great effect by certain politicians over the years.

Let's join the real world shall we.

While in theory the government could magic money out of thin air they are simply not going to do that. Therefore you must deliver what you can with the money you are granted.

Pie in the sky thinking wont change that. You are welcome to think otherwise but personally I will stay in the real world rather than the fantasy world many posters here choose. Each must make his own choice.
 

deltic08

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what upgrades have been scrapped? Where is this northern freight network? What provision has been removed?
Your usual negativity. An upgrade should have been done already and is needed now for growth of the economy. Even my grandchildren could answer that one. That is why we have the Dept for the North to fight for our share of the budget.
But where is the money going to come form for devolved rail? I doubt the local authorities of the north have the funds to pay for the enhancement works. I think cutting parts of the electrification scheme are bonkers frankly!
From the same place £2bllion was found to bribe the DUP and the £zillions found from outside the Defence budget to drop smart bombs on Arabs in the Middle East at £350,000 a time.
 

mwmbwls

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The Guardian carried this report yesterday under a somewhat unclear head-line

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...-considering-flawed-transpennine-rail-upgrade

“The transport secretary is seriously considering a recommendation to spend almost £3bn on a “flawed” and “detrimental” rail upgrade in the north of England that will do nothing to improve reliability or air pollution on a slow and delay-plagued line, sources have told the Guardian.

In recent briefings, Department for Transport officials have told stakeholders that its Board Investment and Commercial Committee (BICC) has recommended to Chris Grayling that the 76-mile TransPennine route between Leeds and Manchester should not be fully electrified.

If the plan is put in place, tunnels will not be made big enough to carry modern freight trains and not enough additional track will be laid to allow fast trains to overtake slow services. “It will be a downgrade of another downgrade,” according to the shadow rail minister, Rachael Maskell, who said shewas passed information from “well-placed” sources.

“Reliability and capacity has been taken off the table,” she said, accusing Grayling of “ruining all of the TransPennine ambition.”

If Grayling follows the advice, critics warn it would undermine the government’s oft-stated claim that the £2.9bn upgrade would “deliver faster, longer, more frequent and more reliable services across the north of England, from Newcastle, Hull and York towards Manchester and Liverpool via Leeds”.

Millions of passengers use the key northern route across the Pennines and passenger numbers are expected to double over the next 20 years. Demand for northern freight transport is also expected to increase, particularly if Brexit pushes ships away from the Dover crossing and up to ports on the Humber and in north-east England.

Maskell said: “[Grayling’s option] is seriously flawed. It is seriously detrimental, to the northern economy and to the ports, not having the option to transport freight across the country by rail. It is also detrimental to passengers at a time when reliability has hardly been on people’s lips.” New, longer trains would be introduced but without the infrastructure to ensure they ran on time, she added. The core of the route between Stalybridge in Greater Manchester and Huddersfield in West Yorkshire will now not be electrified, along with 12 miles east of Leeds according to the Rail Freight Group, which said the Department of Transport’s committee had made the recommendation to Grayling.

Trains using the route will have to be “bi-modal”, switching to environmentally unfriendly diesel engines during key, hilly sections.

The advice contradicts recommendations from Transport for the North (TfN), a statutory body set up to advise the government. In September, it asked the DfT for assurance that “any upgrades are environmentally sustainable and do not have a negative impact on air quality”. It also demanded provision for freight, with the option to transport containers by rail, which is currently not possible because the tunnels are too low.

The Guardian understands the DfT did not respond to the letter and that the TfN board met on Thursday and repeatedly asked a senior DfT official if it was true that Grayling preferred the one upgrade option TfN specifically asked him not to choose, without receiving a satisfactory answer.

Barry White, TfN’s chief executive, suggested he was not ready to give in without a fight. “We continue to seek the journey time improvements, capacity, reliability and freight access that were first set out. We must push for the best solution for the north and will continue to do so,” he said. “This major investment must secure sustained improvement in our railway that delivers on ambitions.”

Mike Hogg of the Rail Freight Group said that if Grayling’s plans went ahead, freight would continue to be transported by road, adding to the already congested motorways and increasing air pollution. “It means that the members of our trade body won’t have the opportunity to put containers on railway wagons and take them over the Pennines. They can’t now, because of capacity and height clearance, and they aren’t going to be able to in the future either. It will go by road, on the M62 instead,” he said.

He said he had known since 18 November that the line was not going to be electrified fully and waas not going to be able to take freight, ignoring the business case made by shippers, port groups and rail hauliers for better freight lines across the Pennines. “We are disappointed and frustrated at the recommendation made by the Department of Transport’s BIC committee and apparently accepted by Chris Grayling,” he said.

Just six freight trains a day run along the TransPennine mainline, but the freight industry submitted plans to increase that to 48 trains a day, six days a week, according to Hogg. He said that very significant investments had been made by major ports at Liverpool, in the Humber and in the north-east for the handling and transfer to rail of containers brought in by sea and that demand for rail freight was likely to continue to rise at 6% per year.

The fastest passenger trains between Manchester Piccadilly and Leeds take 58 minutes. The proposed upgrade would shave between seven and eight minutes off the journey time, according to Hogg. Commuters from Ashford in Kent can get to Stratford International in east London in half an hour, despite the journey being 10 miles longer.

In response to questions from the Guardian about which sections of the TransPennine route would be electrified and whether it would be able to carry freight, a DfT spokeswoman said claims from Maskell and the Rail Freight Group were “completely unfounded”.

She declined to set out the specific plan for TransPennine, saying instead: “The first phase of the upgrade, starting in the spring, will be the biggest investment in our existing railway in the next five years. The department will continue to work with stakeholders to determine how best to deliver all phases of the upgrade”.

Now it is improbable that any junior “DfT spokeswoman” would release this level of detail which leads me to think that it might be the most senior DfT official on the Rail North Partnership Board – Jane Cornthwaite.

Modern Railways Rail in the North Conference April 2018 York by Mwmbwls, on Flickr

If this is true it is yet another demonstration of the failure of the DfT and the Secretary of State to understand the nature of railways in the North.
 

matacaster

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It may have been said but it isn't necessarily true.

For example, there are a number of freight trains daily from Manchester to Runcorn which is a distance well below the oft quoted 150 miles or whatever. There are other such examples.

In the case of transpennine though, one could argue that reducing accidents on M62 involving lorries, reducing pollution and reducing the possibility of spending hundreds of billions on a M62-2 might make UIC gauge upgrade for transpennine route a bargain! Please note as well that Hull to Liverpool is effectively an end to end service, with delays due to loading unloading at port built in - the extra time involved in moving containers road to rail and back would be easily absorbed, particularly as the M62 has had at least 1 accident every 2 days for many months now which cause significant delay to all traffic and frequently gridlock. There is potentially very substantial traffic available for a 24/7 service but lack of suitable infrastructure makes it a remain a dream.
 

Iskra

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Your usual negativity. An upgrade should have been done already and is needed now for growth of the economy. Even my grandchildren could answer that one. That is why we have the Dept for the North to fight for our share of the budget.

From the same place £2bllion was found to bribe the DUP and the £zillions found from outside the Defence budget to drop smart bombs on Arabs in the Middle East at £350,000 a time.

Bombs go out of date, so you if you don’t use them you lose them and replace them anyway.

You’re already paying the pilot and support crews and for the plane so the cost isn’t that great. It’s also good experience, which replaces paying them to do training missions instead. Main cost is in logistics.

And yes, the M62 is a nightmare, anything to take HGV’s off it should be done.

Seems mad not to electrify the whole route for passenger services. Even without additional loops it would allow them to run lots of electric freight overnight. But the freight market is volatile, so you can see why they might not want to do a huge freight upgrade.
 
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furnessvale

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In the case of transpennine though, one could argue that reducing accidents on M62 involving lorries, reducing pollution and reducing the possibility of spending hundreds of billions on a M62-2 might make UIC gauge upgrade for transpennine route a bargain! Please note as well that Hull to Liverpool is effectively an end to end service, with delays due to loading unloading at port built in - the extra time involved in moving containers road to rail and back would be easily absorbed, particularly as the M62 has had at least 1 accident every 2 days for many months now which cause significant delay to all traffic and frequently gridlock. There is potentially very substantial traffic available for a 24/7 service but lack of suitable infrastructure makes it a remain a dream.
We seem to be arguing FOR similar things, although I am not certain a full UIC gauge is required. Perhaps you have not read the post I was responding to?
 

deltic08

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Bombs go out of date, so you if you don’t use them you lose them and replace them anyway.

You’re already paying the pilot and support crews and for the plane so the cost isn’t that great. It’s also good experience, which replaces paying them to do training missions instead. Main cost is in logistics.

And yes, the M62 is a nightmare, anything to take HGV’s off it should be done.

Seems mad not to electrify the whole route for passenger services. Even without additional loops it would allow them to run lots of electric freight overnight. But the freight market is volatile, so you can see why they might not want to do a huge freight upgrade.
Yes, after a couple of years and can be repacked after then.

Bombs dropped in Vietnam in the late 1960s were made for dropping on Dresden in WW2.

Maybe it wasn't the best example I could use for the use of diving into the reserves piggy bank.
 

Meerkat

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Yes, after a couple of years and can be repacked after then.

Bombs dropped in Vietnam in the late 1960s were made for dropping on Dresden in WW2.

Not sure that is true any more - the expensive bit is the electronics, which have a shelf life before needing refurbishing, and the rules on storing explosives are a bit tighter now......blimmin’ elfin safety Nazis innit!!
 

158756

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In the case of transpennine though, one could argue that reducing accidents on M62 involving lorries, reducing pollution and reducing the possibility of spending hundreds of billions on a M62-2 might make UIC gauge upgrade for transpennine route a bargain! Please note as well that Hull to Liverpool is effectively an end to end service, with delays due to loading unloading at port built in - the extra time involved in moving containers road to rail and back would be easily absorbed, particularly as the M62 has had at least 1 accident every 2 days for many months now which cause significant delay to all traffic and frequently gridlock. There is potentially very substantial traffic available for a 24/7 service but lack of suitable infrastructure makes it a remain a dream.

The M62 is a joke. 1 accident every 2 days is being generous. But... You need a big volume of traffic to make container trains viable. Hull is not a massive port - it's not in the UK top 10 - and only around a fifth of tonnage is Lolo. Transferring from road to rail and back again coordinating with rail and ship timetables would probably still add hours to the journey. Most containers won't be going to Ireland, and many that are would always stay on the roads for such a short distance.

I don't know, maybe what's left would support some trains, but enough to justify billions of spending? There'd also be a major risk that the withdrawal of just one shipping route from Hull might render the whole investment worthless.

Clearance of the route for container trains seems the easiest option to get freight running overnight if there is indeed demand for it. Short loops I think would be pointless - there aren't big enough gaps in the passenger service for freight to get anywhere from a standing start. Electrification only matters if the FOCs are interested in the hassle of it.
 

DarloRich

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Your usual negativity. An upgrade should have been done already and is needed now for growth of the economy. Even my grandchildren could answer that one. That is why we have the Dept for the North to fight for our share of the budget.

From the same place £2bllion was found to bribe the DUP and the £zillions found from outside the Defence budget to drop smart bombs on Arabs in the Middle East at £350,000 a time.

Personally I would rather avoid the silly whataboutery and focus on reality. I know that is a stranger to you but for some of us it is not.

The reality here is that there is not enough money to deliver "nice to haves" for freight services that don't exit. Taking Huddersfield last Thursday as an example there were 5 freight trains ( for comparison Bletchley beat that number by 02:00!) and I doubt very much any of them would have benefited from electric traction. Liverpool port and Drax aren't going to get wired up. I repeat: If the government are only prepared to allocate £7.50 for a £10 project you either have to find alternative funding or cut the scope. The first thing to go are the non core requirements such a extra loops for non existent freight. I would rather that than bin the whole project.

As an aside I agree entirely that this electrification should have happened long ago. Furthermore the idea that this electrification should have a gap in the middle is preposterous. The government should be releasing funds for a proper job not the half arsed ideas they seem to be supporting.
 

Legolash2o

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I hoped that they would have upgraded a line to W10 through the transpennines from Hull/Immingham to Liverpool as there isn't even a fully published W8 route.
 
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Legolash2o

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My map of loading gauges shows the lack of freight opportunity. It shows W8 or higher as I've removed W6, W7.

Maybe more freight will run through the area if the gauge clearance officially allow standard containers W8 without specialised wagons. By 2020, 50% of the containers on the network will be high-cube (W10).
 

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DarloRich

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My map of loading gauges shows the lack of freight opportunity. It shows W8 or higher as I've removed W6, W7.

Maybe more freight will run through the area if the gauge clearance officially allow standard containers W8 without specialised wagons. By 2020, 50% of the containers on the network will be high-cube (W10).

but is there a demand for such services between Hull and Liverpool? There is lots of lovely port based information here: https://assets.publishing.service.g.../file/762200/port-freight-statistics-2017.pdf
 

furnessvale

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AndrewE

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My map of loading gauges shows the lack of freight opportunity. It shows W8 or higher as I've removed W6, W7.

Maybe more freight will run through the area if the gauge clearance officially allow standard containers W8 without specialised wagons. By 2020, 50% of the containers on the network will be high-cube (W10).
The longer this drags on (and the more we learn about the genuine difficulties - as opposed to politicians' excuses) the more convinced I am that we should bore a Pennine base tunnel and sidestep lots of the issues - and benefit freight and long-distance passenger trains a lot sooner than waiting for Standedge to get done..
 

Legolash2o

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but is there a demand for such services between Hull and Liverpool? There is lots of lovely port based information here: https://assets.publishing.service.g.../file/762200/port-freight-statistics-2017.pdf

Chicken and egg scenario as it happened with broadband. ISPs didn't see any demand for faster internet. When faster internet speeds became available, more services such as Netflix, YouTube, Internet of Things drove up demand and now they don't have enough engineers to install it quick enough.

My map with maximum lengths allows trains ~500m whereas north-south bound can have ~680m (via Lincoln). So to make it more profitable, they'd have to allow longer trains.
 

DarloRich

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Chicken and egg scenario as it happened with broadband. ISPs didn't see any demand for faster internet. When faster internet speeds became available, more services such as Netflix, YouTube, Internet of Things drove up demand and now they don't have enough engineers to install it quick enough.

My map with maximum lengths allows trains ~500m whereas north-south bound can have ~680m (via Lincoln). So to make it more profitable, they'd have to allow longer trains.

several billion pounds is a big risk on "chicken and egg"! What happens if the economy tanks post brexit? if someone can prove latent demand then the case is made better. Build it and they will come wont wash.
 

furnessvale

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several billion pounds is a big risk on "chicken and egg"! What happens if the economy tanks post brexit? if someone can prove latent demand then the case is made better. Build it and they will come wont wash.
I saw a report just the other day where the FOCs had plans for over 40 freights a day over the pennines, if only paths and loading gauge would allow it.
 

DarloRich

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I saw a report just the other day where the FOCs had plans for over 40 freights a day over the pennines, if only paths and loading gauge would allow it.

Ok - I have plans to go to Tahiti. Will you sort me out a flight and pay for my trip?

if the FOC's can show contracts lost and services they are having to turn away they will have a better chance of securing funding. They have to have more than ideas or suggestions.

Personally i am more worried about electrification happening. We are talking here about nice to haves. I am not confident we will get the must haves!
 

furnessvale

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Ok - I have plans to go to Tahiti. Will you sort me out a flight and pay for my trip?

if the FOC's can show contracts lost and services they are having to turn away they will have a better chance of securing funding. They have to have more than ideas or suggestions.

Personally i am more worried about electrification happening. We are talking here about nice to haves. I am not confident we will get the must haves!

You can mock crayonistas all you want but I am sure the INDUSTRY has put serious proposals to government and others but commercial sensitivity means they cannot be publicised.

I have already quoted one lost traffic and there are plenty more. The fact that HMG prefers not to back its own environmental policy is a cause of regret.
 

DarloRich

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You can mock crayonistas all you want but I am sure the INDUSTRY has put serious proposals to government and others but commercial sensitivity means they cannot be publicised.

I have already quoted one lost traffic and there are plenty more. The fact that HMG prefers not to back its own environmental policy is a cause of regret.

but while my comment about Thati is deliberately factious that is exactly what you and others are asking the government to do. You are asking them to spend lots of our money on a wish. What if they feel that money can be better used by the INDUSTRY (?) in a different way? What if they think the money is better spent on a new motorway? There is only so much money available and the government must spend it int the way they think is best.

As I have now said several times: I think this is a debate about nice to haves. I am more worried about the must haves which are also at risk.
 

AndrewE

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but while my comment about Thati is deliberately factious that is exactly what you and others are asking the government to do. You are asking them to spend lots of our money on a wish. What if they feel that money can be better used by the INDUSTRY (?) in a different way? What if they think the money is better spent on a new motorway? There is only so much money available and the government must spend it int the way they think is best.

As I have now said several times: I think this is a debate about nice to haves. I am more worried about the must haves which are also at risk.
I partly agree with you here, but given the real need to decarbonise the economy, reduce energy consumption wherever we can and get diesel-powered traffic (road and rail, passenger and freight) out of our cities and towns too, then electrification of rail routes throughout has got to be a very high priority (i.e. it's not a nice-to-have.)
It may well be that the best use of money would be to bore a pair of large diameter tunnels from Huddersfield to somewhere east of Manchester. It would address lots of needs and be a lot less complicated than trusting computer signalling to increase capacity over the Pennines. How well have other big IT projects gone? Quite a few have been abandoned after spending lots of millions on them.
 

BigCj34

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I like how HS3 has devolved into partial electrification of an existing railway line. The only possible saving grace will be if battery power will compensate for the unelectrified parts. Even the DfT's announcement that said the line "will include electrification" sounded ominous, as if to say it was only partial. That fear has come true.
 

deltic08

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Personally I would rather avoid the silly whataboutery and focus on reality. I know that is a stranger to you but for some of us it is not.

The reality here is that there is not enough money to deliver "nice to haves" for freight services that don't exit. Taking Huddersfield last Thursday as an example there were 5 freight trains ( for comparison Bletchley beat that number by 02:00!) and I doubt very much any of them would have benefited from electric traction. Liverpool port and Drax aren't going to get wired up. I repeat: If the government are only prepared to allocate £7.50 for a £10 project you either have to find alternative funding or cut the scope. The first thing to go are the non core requirements such a extra loops for non existent freight. I would rather that than bin the whole project.

As an aside I agree entirely that this electrification should have happened long ago. Furthermore the idea that this electrification should have a gap in the middle is preposterous. The government should be releasing funds for a proper job not the half arsed ideas they seem to be supporting.
Well you would say that living in the southern half. Only today I heard Crossrail have been given another £billion bailout. When are we getting our fair shares for the north?

£3billion for Transpennine is spread over three years or possibly longer and nowhere near the £5billion we should be getting annually to be on a par with London and the southeast spending per capita.

I rest my case M'lud.

Ok - I have plans to go to Tahiti. Will you sort me out a flight and pay for my trip?
I will contribute towards a one way ticket. Anyone join me? Perhaps we could charter a flight and fill it with naysayers?
You can mock crayonistas all you want but I am sure the INDUSTRY has put serious proposals to government and others but commercial sensitivity means they cannot be publicised.

I have already quoted one lost traffic and there are plenty more. The fact that HMG prefers not to back its own environmental policy is a cause of regret.

The Widnes to Teesport container service for P&O was lost because the train had to go on a long circuitous route because of loading gauge issues.

Fortunately biomass is not quite so time sensitive.
It is still time sensitive as it has to be kept dry and Drax has very little dry storage facility. And when is Graylings study on Skipton=Colne going to be published? It is already months late. Is he sitting on another important decision and doing nothing about it.
 

DarloRich

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Well you would say that living in the southern half. Only today I heard Crossrail have been given another £billion bailout. When are we getting our fair shares for the north?

£3billion for Transpennine is spread over three years or possibly longer and nowhere near the £5billion we should be getting annually to be on a par with London and the southeast spending per capita.

I rest my case M'lud.

Please stop if you have nothing mature and sensible to offer. You are simply making yourself look even more silly.

I will contribute towards a one way ticket. Anyone join me? Perhaps we could charter a flight and fill it with naysayers?

Will that suddenly remove inconvenient truths, produce a change of government policy or magic up extra cash? Or is that you cant abide anyone daring to challenge or disagree with you? I suspect it is the latter.

That is the end of my contribution to this thread. I will leave you to your fantasy world.
 

deltic08

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Please stop if you have nothing mature and sensible to offer. You are simply making yourself look even more silly.

Will that suddenly remove inconvenient truths, produce a change of government policy or magic up extra cash? Or is that you cant abide anyone daring to challenge or disagree with you? I suspect it is the latter.

That is the end of my contribution to this thread. I will leave you to your fantasy world.
So are you denying there is north/south divide on transport spend?

You invited the second comment. It was tongue in cheek throw away comment.
 

Legolash2o

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But surely if they move freight east-west instead of south-north, they'd be less transport miles for emissions but also free up capacity on the southern lines for more passengers. They'd also be less freight trains to break down in the south.
 
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