Future automatic train discussion

[Italiandriver]

Hello everyone, I am an Italian train driver who works on regional transport. I have read from articles that Thameslink has implemented the ATO system with ETCS L2. In Italy we have the M1 and M3 meters of Milan that work in ATO: the driver closes the doors and presses start button. But how does driving on a mainline train in ATO work? Can the driver manually drive or be obliged to proceed with the active ATO? Does the throttle/brake lever have to be 0? Can the value of acceleration be decided?

On the M1 and M3 meters of Milan, with automatic driving, the driver, if he moves the controls, deactivates the ATO which can only be activated when the train is stationary. it is strictly forbidden to drive manually, it can only be degraded.

I do not really like that on a mainline train you can not do work on the controls.

 

[D365]

No idea whether the controls are fully locked out or not, but obviously the emergency brake is always available.

I believe the basic principle of ATO in the UK (whether it be London Underground or mainline), is that the driver closes the doors and gives the order to start. The computers then take the train to the next station.

 

[Italiandriver]

No idea whether the controls are fully locked out or not, but obviously the emergency brake is always available.

I believe the basic principle of ATO in the UK (whether it be London Underground or mainline), is that the driver closes the doors and gives the order to start. The computers then take the train to the next station.

I hope that this system is limited only in urban areas and for EMU / DMU trains, on ordinary trains and especially on freight trains, I think it is counterproductive.

Also in Switzerland there is a similar project but to be extended over the whole SBB network (where there is ETCS), however the driver is always responsible and can decide braking or acceleration, the controls are always active and working like manual driving, the information arrives on the cruiser controll unit. Serve only to improve traffic and energy consumption but it is not considered a real automatic driving, due to the fact that the driver has full responsibility on the train and the controls are always available.

 

[Mordac]

I hope that this system is limited only in urban areas and for EMU / DMU trains, on ordinary trains and especially on freight trains, I think it is counterproductive.

Also in Switzerland there is a similar project but to be extended over the whole SBB network (where there is ETCS), however the driver is always responsible and can decide braking or acceleration, the controls are always active and working like manual driving, the information arrives on the cruiser controll unit. Serve only to improve traffic and energy consumption but it is not considered a real automatic driving, due to the fact that the driver has full responsibility on the train and the controls are always available.

Keep in mind ATO is only used on the "core" of the Thameslink network, the short section between St. Pancras Thameslink and Blackfriars. This route is pretty much all in tunnel or otherwise isolated from its urban surroundings, and the loads and stopping patterns are very much metro-like. The trains use conventional signalling on the rest of their duties. The reason for introducing ATO in this section is that it will need to handle 24 trains per hour when the full Thameslink programme upgrade programme is concluded in 2019, and for this to be possible, driving patterns need to be made as identical as possible between each train.

 

[FlippyFF]

Keep in mind ATO is only used on the "core" of the Thameslink network, the short section between St. Pancras Thameslink and Blackfriars. This route is pretty much all in tunnel or otherwise isolated from its urban surroundings, and the loads and stopping patterns are very much metro-like. The trains use conventional signalling on the rest of their duties. The reason for introducing ATO in this section is that it will need to handle 24 trains per hour when the full Thameslink programme upgrade programme is concluded in 2019, and for this to be possible, driving patterns need to be made as identical as possible between each train.

I thought the ATO section extended to somewhere east of London Bridge?

Simon

 

[Italiandriver]

Can the driver manually drive if he wishes? I thought that thameslink, crossrail etc. they wanted to extend the application of the ATO over their entire network.
In Italy we have very similar routes to the subway on the suburban network of Milan: the problem is that there are many trains, all different from each other. But there is a study called ETCS HD, just for the nodes, I think very similar to that of Thameslink.

The ATO systems that I know are deactivated when the controls are moved, it is possible to return to ATO only when the train is stationary, driving only with the controls at 0, any correction made by the driver deactivates the ATO and can be reactivated with a stationary train. It is not possible to start from a station with the throttle lever to a value other than 0 (for example to 150 Kn) with the active ATO.

I would be curious to know how the ATO driving of the Class 700 takes place, what the train driver can or can not do. If it is the same as that of Metro GoA2, I find it very limiting, I prefer a system like in Switzerland where there is an automatic drive but the throttle value is decided by the driver who, taking the lever to the end of the race, the system will then decide how much current give to the engines, but never exceed the value of the lever.

 

[hwl]

Can the driver manually drive if he wishes? I thought that thameslink, crossrail etc. they wanted to extend the application of the ATO over their entire network.
In Italy we have very similar routes to the subway on the suburban network of Milan: the problem is that there are many trains, all different from each other. But there is a study called ETCS HD, just for the nodes, I think very similar to that of Thameslink.

The ATO systems that I know are deactivated when the controls are moved, it is possible to return to ATO only when the train is stationary, driving only with the controls at 0, any correction made by the driver deactivates the ATO and can be reactivated with a stationary train. It is not possible to start from a station with the throttle lever to a value other than 0 (for example to 150 Kn) with the active ATO.

I would be curious to know how the ATO driving of the Class 700 takes place, what the train driver can or can not do. If it is the same as that of Metro GoA2, I find it very limiting, I prefer a system like in Switzerland where there is an automatic drive but the throttle value is decided by the driver who, taking the lever to the end of the race, the system will then decide how much current give to the engines, but never exceed the value of the lever.

1. ATO will initially only be available on the core section of both of those routes with only a single type of rolling stock designed and built for ATO.
2. Metro GoA2 with automatic door opening and driver controlled door closing

 

[Italiandriver]

1. ATO will initially only be available on the core section of both of those routes with only a single type of rolling stock designed and built for ATO.
2. Metro GoA2 with automatic door opening and driver controlled door closing

Of course, but when the ATO will be spread over the main line it will also need to consider the distraction aspect, especially on intercity trains and freights. Imagine being hours and hours doing nothing, maybe do some shunting, the attention decreases.

 

[D365]

Of course, but when the ATO will be spread over the main line...

Who says it will be?

Not cost effective unless you've got high frequency (>18tph) services with similar/identical stopping patterns.

 

[jellybaby]

Of course, but when the ATO will be spread over the main line it will also need to consider the distraction aspect, especially on intercity trains and freights. Imagine being hours and hours doing nothing, maybe do some shunting, the attention decreases.

What does a driver of a moving high speed intercity train do if there aren't any signals to watch for or speed limits to adjust for (because the train is doing that itself)? I assume at 125mph by the time you spot an obstruction you are going to hit it anyway?

 

[Italiandriver]

What does a driver of a moving high speed intercity train do if there aren't any signals to watch for or speed limits to adjust for (because the train is doing that itself)? I assume at 125mph by the time you spot an obstruction you are going to hit it anyway?

I do not speak of ordinariness, I speak of extraordinary events: the ATO that does not work, a collision with an obstacle, problems with the block and much more. How can a driver solve a problem if he sleeps with a bubble nose? Or if he plays the whole trip on his phone and does not even know where he is? If the ATO requires the driver to remain on alert, the driver must be on alert.

The ATO is automatic, but not without human assistance.

Otherwise you invest on the DTO or UTO on the main line and the problem is solved.

 

[jellybaby]

the ATO that does not work

Then the train stops. That doesn't require a driver to be especially alert.

If the ATO requires the driver to remain on alert, the driver must be on alert.

Does the ATO require the driver to be alert? I assume it doesn't. Once the driver has closed the doors and instructed the ATO to begin I assume the driver doesn't need to do anything until the next station stop.

There are ATO systems which don't have a driver such as the DLR and don't appear any more or less protected from things like trespassers than routes like HS1.

 

[carriageline]

Then the train stops. That doesn't require a driver to be especially alert.


Does the ATO require the driver to be alert? I assume it doesn't. Once the driver has closed the doors and instructed the ATO to begin I assume the driver doesn't need to do anything until the next station stop.

There are ATO systems which don't have a driver such as the DLR and don't appear any more or less protected from things like trespassers than routes like HS1.

ATO requires the driver to be alert. All the ATO does is start,stop at a location it’s told to, then open the doors. You could have a car in front of the train with 10 people standing around it and the ATO will not know

 

[jellybaby]

You could have a car in front of the train with 10 people standing around it and the ATO will not know

Would a driver of a high speed train know before it was too late to do anything apart from be the first person on the train to hit it?

 

[D365]

Would a driver of a high speed train know before it was too late to do anything apart from be the first person on the train to hit it?

ATO or not, the driver has control of the emergency stop. I don’t know if you’re asking if ATO can predict the future?

Not that high speed ATO has anything to do with the Class 700s, mind.

 

[Italiandriver]

On the M1 and M3 subway of Milano, even if they operate in ATO, the driver is absolutely responsible for the train. ATO or not ATO, Goa1 or Goa2, the driver is fully responsible for his assigned train.

On a high-speed train, ATO or manual you can not do much to avoid an obstacle, but do not even pretend anything, you need to mitigate as much as possible an impact, use the GSM-R alarm and make a series of planned interventions. Most high-speed trains use instrumental systems (TVM-LZB-ETCS etc.) that do not need to look outside, but the driver can not drive with the curtain down on the windshield. Also there are other unplanned contingencies ...

For example, a long time ago, on the M3 of Milano, a slowdown was installed for a flooded track, of 20 mph, not managed by block programming, so in the first station a driver-tutor goes on board to make the slowing down manually, because the drivers no longer knew how to drive in manual mode, exception of the shunting, after the slowdown, the driver-tutor gets off the train and goes on board the other train to make the slow down in other direction . Or I can tell people invested because they fell on the tracks without the driver noticing, because he looked at his smartphone. So, if you want to commit suicide ... throw yourself on the M1 or M3 of Milan, guaranteed death.

The DLR is a slightly different system, similar to an automatic subway, with a simple management. DTO and UTO have a very different management of an ATO, they must have many more things: sensors, cameras, real-time alerts to the control room on all the characteristics of the trains (voltage, engine failures, temperature axes etc.), you do not have need to maintain driving skills because in case of system failures in DTOs proceed at low speed to the first station in order to free the track (a simulator is sufficient to guarantee a minimum of driving skills), do not even have a signaling or another way of guaranteeing full service with an operator all the time, because they are very different lines from those GoA1 and Goa2 where if the ATO does not work then you can continue to drive manually. On DTO and UTO if the automatic driving does not work you can only free the track up to the first station, there is no ordinary service with the driver that drives, even the train dashboard is very simplified, without too much information, quite different instead dashboard of an ordinary train (ATO or not ATO).

With this I do not want to say that in the future also the main line will not be DTO or UTO (this I think improbable), I just want to say that ATO-DTO-UTO are not the same thing, especially in the main line is very difficult, but not impossible.