Future Metrolink Expansion

[edwin_m]

The problem is detecting accurately where another tram ends - e.g. so that you can switch points after it has passed; In the city centre, Metrolink does this by line of sight; but it doubt whether you could ever do it reliably by line of sight in a tunnelled system.

Points are fitted with detectors to make sure there is no tram on top of them before they change. This is true in either a line of sight or a signalled system.

 

[nerd]

Points are fitted with detectors to make sure there is no tram on top of them before they change. This is true in either a line of sight or a signalled system.

But detectors fail - as Metrolink know only too well. Being able to see other trams going through the Piccadilly delta junction, is a precondition to assuring safety in the central section of the system. If that central area junction were sunk in a tunnel, it would lack that degree of assurance; which is one reason why line of sight cannot be considered to provide assured safety for signal control underground.

 

[edwin_m]

But detectors fail - as Metrolink know only too well. Being able to see other trams going through the Piccadilly delta junction, is a precondition to assuring safety in the central section of the system. If that central area junction were sunk in a tunnel, it would lack that degree of assurance; which is one reason why line of sight cannot be considered to provide assured safety for signal control underground.

The detectors aren't used to stop the trams colliding, just to prevent the points changing under a tram and derailing it (yes that has happened but it wasn't due to problems with the detectors). I agree if there was a junction in the tunnel the lack of sightlines would be a potential concern, as it might be in a curved tunnel with limited forward view, and either might be another reason to have railway-type signalling in a tunnel rather than line of sight supported by tramway junction signals.

There are two tunnels on the Bury line and one in Didsbury that operate on line of sight. The one at Collyhurst is tightly curved and I think speed-restricted due to limited sightlines.

 

[Greybeard33]

The detectors aren't used to stop the trams colliding, just to prevent the points changing under a tram and derailing it (yes that has happened but it wasn't due to problems with the detectors). I agree if there was a junction in the tunnel the lack of sightlines would be a potential concern, as it might be in a curved tunnel with limited forward view, and either might be another reason to have railway-type signalling in a tunnel rather than line of sight supported by tramway junction signals.

There are two tunnels on the Bury line and one in Didsbury that operate on line of sight. The one at Collyhurst is tightly curved and I think speed-restricted due to limited sightlines.

Collyhurst tunnel has variable speed restrictions, indicated to the driver by TMS-controlled illuminated signs. I believe it is 30mph when the line ahead is clear, reducing to 20mph outbound or 25mph inbound if there is a tram ahead. Variable restrictions are also implemented at some surface locations on the Bury line where sightlines are limited. I guess this system is a sort of compromise between pure line of sight and metro-type block signalling, and could be used on a curved underground tram line.

Metrolink junctions on segregated track have high integrity signalling anyway to prevent conflicting moves, with Signal Passed At Stop (SPAS) detection and flashing blue beacons.

 

[Busaholic]

Noooooo!!!!!!

Manchester does not want an underground system, keep them on the streets where you can see them and easily board them.
3CC may be needed and should probably go at right angles to 1CC and 2CC sort of University to Salford ish

I just wondered whether there is an appetite in Manc to create another central cross-city line on public roads. If there is, great.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I just wondered whether there is an appetite in Manc to create another central cross-city line on public roads. If there is, great.

After the disruption to the city caused by the 2CC, including the loss of the excellently placed St Peter's Square stop for so long, the appetite that you make reference to, is surely only in the eyes of tram enthusiasts rather than those who actually use the city centre for tourism, work and shopping.

Corporation Street and Cross Street areas are good examples of where a very large disruption of the city centre has so occurred.

 

[Altfish]

After the disruption to the city caused by the 2CC, including the loss of the excellently placed St Peter's Square stop for so long, the appetite that you make reference to, is surely only in the eyes of tram enthusiasts rather than those who actually use the city centre for tourism, work and shopping.

Corporation Street and Cross Street areas are good examples of where a very large disruption of the city centre has so occurred.

Paul, I think that is an aversion to construction rather than trams. OK I'm pro Tram, but I do believe most people in Manchester like Metrolink and despite the disruption would put up with more for an improved transport system.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Paul, I think that is an aversion to construction rather than trams. OK I'm pro Tram, but I do believe most people in Manchester like Metrolink and despite the disruption would put up with more for an improved transport system.

I did assist with an independant survey of visitors, workers and shoppers about the disruption caused by the 2CC line and on learning the amount of time since inception and then still required to complete this project, plus the disruption to travel to work plans caused by the St Peter's Square decommissioning during the time period of those works, I assure you that your statement of "most people" did NOT reflect itself in the findings of those surveyed.

An associated survey of businesses affected by the 2CC did see one point being somewhat forcibly made was the time period involved in which their businesses were so affected, so I can see another long-period time disruption of business by the aspirational 3CC line being received with horror by the business community. Of course, the lovers of trams will not see that in the same light as the businesses whose trade can be affected.

 

[Altfish]

Fair enough, it is short-sighted though

 

[edwin_m]

Manchester is extremely disrupted at the moment, not only for 2CC but also for the bus priority works that have totally messed up Portland Street for several months. A 3CC route might potentially confict with the other bus corridor on Princess Street, and a route that was practicable on engineering/traffic grounds might end up not taking people to the parts of the central area they mainly want to visit.

 

[Altfish]

Manchester is extremely disrupted at the moment, not only for 2CC but also for the bus priority works that have totally messed up Portland Street for several months. A 3CC route might potentially confict with the other bus corridor on Princess Street, and a route that was practicable on engineering/traffic grounds might end up not taking people to the parts of the central area they mainly want to visit.

Don't forget the problems on the Mancunian Way as well

 

[nerd]

I did assist with an independant survey of visitors, workers and shoppers about the disruption caused by the 2CC line and on learning the amount of time since inception and then still required to complete this project, plus the disruption to travel to work plans caused by the St Peter's Square decommissioning during the time period of those works, I assure you that your statement of "most people" did NOT reflect itself in the findings of those surveyed.

An associated survey of businesses affected by the 2CC did see one point being somewhat forcibly made was the time period involved in which their businesses were so affected, so I can see another long-period time disruption of business by the aspirational 3CC line being received with horror by the business community. Of course, the lovers of trams will not see that in the same light as the businesses whose trade can be affected.

Mybe so PS;

- but were a city centre tunnel to be constructed - with consequent excavation of underground stops - the disruption would be both more protracted and more severe.

- and were the alternative to be be construction of new roads; or of segregated junctions on the Inner Ring Road; then the disruption would be an order of manitude greater again.

Manchester city centre is experiencing an inwards shift of jobs, residences and economic activity from out-of-town sites. This is happening in most major urban centres - but more so in Manchester than anywhere outside London. But the consequence is that the total peak commuter flow into the centre will increase from 80,000 ten years ago; to something more like 150,000 by 2020. That has to be accommodated somehow; and the works to do so will be prolonged and highly disruptive.

But it has to be done; and once its over, most commuters and businesses can rapidly adjust to the new potential extensions of access.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Manchester city centre is experiencing an inwards shift of jobs, residences and economic activity from out-of-town sites. This is happening in most major urban centres - but more so in Manchester than anywhere outside London. But the consequence is that the total peak commuter flow into the centre will increase from 80,000 ten years ago; to something more like 150,000 by 2020. That has to be accommodated somehow; and the works to do so will be prolonged and highly disruptive. But it has to be done; and once its over, most commuters and businesses can rapidly adjust to the new potential extensions of access.

I was well aware of how the 2CC line was a required Metrolink north/south lines connectional link, but with regards to the disruption of trade for businesses, the amount of construction time required for such a short distance of line construction that passes through the major commercial inner-city was a cross that those businesses have had to bear for far too long and the associated disruption to traffic flows has been most noticeable considering the situation that Deansgate endures, not at all helped by the singling at that thoroughfare outside Kendal Milne.

All that said, we are now talking of an aspirational 3CC line and if this were to have a same period of construction through the inner-city core as the 2CC line, noting my comments what that actually has so entailed so far and still to entail in the months to come, the city will be once again be disrupted in terms of businesses, visitors, shoppers and workers, solely so one mode of transport that is so beloved of TfGM can be boasted of how they are the leading light of tramway systems of Britain.

 

[Altfish]

How badly has it been affected Paul?
Are there any figures showing a dip in visitors/trade?
Every time I'm in the city centre it is rammed. Last Friday night it was chucking it down but all pubs and restaurants were full, as was HOME where I went to the cinema.

 

[pemma]

I was well aware of how the 2CC line was a required Metrolink north/south lines connectional link, but with regards to the disruption of trade for businesses, the amount of construction time required for such a short distance of line construction that passes through the major commercial inner-city was a cross that those businesses have had to bear for far too long and the associated disruption to traffic flows has been most noticeable considering the situation that Deansgate endures, not at all helped by the singling at that thoroughfare outside Kendal Milne.

It sounds like Manchester is the opposite extreme to Cheshire. In Knutsford Cheshire East have pulled a King Street redevelopment scheme because businesses were concerned about lost trade for 3 months, even though after it the street would be more accessible and it would be easier for disabled people and families to visit the town centre. Yet a short distance away it seems a new Metrolink line can mean they can close the roads for as long as they need to. Neither is the right approach.

I recall last October visiting somewhere in the Corn Exchange for the 1st time but went in by the wrong entrance for the place I was going to and it took a while for me to find how to get to the right entrance with all the work going on and some pavements being blocked off.

 

[nerd]

I was well aware of how the 2CC line was a required Metrolink north/south lines connectional link, but with regards to the disruption of trade for businesses, the amount of construction time required for such a short distance of line construction that passes through the major commercial inner-city was a cross that those businesses have had to bear for far too long and the associated disruption to traffic flows has been most noticeable considering the situation that Deansgate endures, not at all helped by the singling at that thoroughfare outside Kendal Milne.

All that said, we are now talking of an aspirational 3CC line and if this were to have a same period of construction through the inner-city core as the 2CC line, noting my comments what that actually has so entailed so far and still to entail in the months to come, the city will be once again be disrupted in terms of businesses, visitors, shoppers and workers, solely so one mode of transport that is so beloved of TfGM can be boasted of how they are the leading light of tramway systems of Britain.

How long is 'far too long' PS? I confess I have no comparative timelines to hand; but I am pretty certain that 2CC is being completed much quicker (crosssing fingers and toes) than Princes Street/Shandwick Place. There were special circumstances there; but what are your comparators that indicate substantially quicker progress could otherwise have been made; Nottingham, Birmingham, Sheffield? My own impression is of continued good progress on 2CC - certainly as compared with the sewer replacement works on Deansagate a few years back. Continual disruptions of access are a feature of street-facing retail everywhere; some years of gain, interspersed with occasional years of loss.

Maybe all of them took 'far too long'; maybe trams as such are too disruptive? But how otherwise do you double the transpsort user capacity of the city centre in 20 years, without creating prolonged disruption to city centre businesses. Relocating all general traffic access into car parks along the Inner Ring Road perhaps, with shuttle-buses into the centre; or maybe switch central roads over largely to bikes? Strategies that seem to have worked OK in Oxford and Cambridge; but can this approach translate to Manchester?

We don't know what alignment a 3CC would take; though as it most likely would not run over a historic graveyard; the chief factor creating uncertainty in the 2CC timescale might be expected not to apply. If it took the route I would consider most likely - Portland Street, Princess Street, Albert Square, Peter Street - then there would likely be less impact on retail businesss, but perhaps more on offices and hotels. But then offices and hotels are likely the categories of business that would have the most to gain from a tramline running alongside, once it is open.

 

[Busaholic]

I did assist with an independant survey of visitors, workers and shoppers about the disruption caused by the 2CC line and on learning the amount of time since inception and then still required to complete this project, plus the disruption to travel to work plans caused by the St Peter's Square decommissioning during the time period of those works, I assure you that your statement of "most people" did NOT reflect itself in the findings of those surveyed.

An associated survey of businesses affected by the 2CC did see one point being somewhat forcibly made was the time period involved in which their businesses were so affected, so I can see another long-period time disruption of business by the aspirational 3CC line being received with horror by the business community. Of course, the lovers of trams will not see that in the same light as the businesses whose trade can be affected.

I hardly know Manchester, as I've already said, but I do know Croydon quite well and saw the appalling effect the works in George Street in particular had on local shops and businesses there. My sympathy with them is not only because I've owned a small shop for 28 years and know how matters out of your control can have a devastating effect on your business.

A one mile long tunnel is a feat of engineering not to be undertaken lightly but the above-surface disruption over one mile of city streets would be far greater in the short and medium term and can lead to reasonably prosperous areas becoming wastelands of boarded-up shops, with all the consequent loss of income to the authorities. That said, I am a proponent of trams in the right places,using the right construction methods.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

But then offices and hotels are likely the categories of business that would have the most to gain from a tramline running alongside, once it is open.

I shall hold my peace over the "offices" part of your posting, but would most certainly not agree with the "hotels" part. How many trams do you see with passengers and luggage at present on trams heading to the hotels in the inner-core of Manchester? Are you honestly expecting me to believe that the 3CC line would take a route past the frontages of all the quality hotels in inner-city Manchester?

People arriving in Manchester at a railway station or coach station would normally use a taxi to transport them and their luggage direct to the hotel, where hotel staff are there to deal with the luggage.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Maybe all of them took 'far too long'; maybe trams as such are too disruptive? But how otherwise do you double the transpsort user capacity of the city centre in 20 years, without creating prolonged disruption to city centre businesses. Relocating all general traffic access into car parks along the Inner Ring Road perhaps, with shuttle-buses into the centre; or maybe switch central roads over largely to bikes? Strategies that seem to have worked OK in Oxford and Cambridge; but can this approach translate to Manchester?

Despite the seemingly believed view that TfGM worship before the God called "Tram", have you made yourself familiar with the TfGM road plans for high=frequency bus corridors currently in progress, one of which comes from Middleton to Manchester if my memory serves me true and then, whether you like it or not, there is the Leigh Guided Busway that April seems to be spoken of.

Being seventy years of age and having always to be careful since the stroke suffered in July 2012 and the two subsequent mini-strokes, I would also add that I am personally resident external to the borders of the TfGM empire and not being one who visits Manchester on a daily basis, I speak to those who actually do. I also endeavour to ensure that TfGM keep[ me on their e-mailing databases for all transport related projects.

 

[nerd]

I shall hold my peace over the "offices" part of your posting, but would most certainly not agree with the "hotels" part. How many trams do you see with passengers and luggage at present on trams heading to the hotels in the inner-core of Manchester? Are you honestly expecting me to believe that the 3CC line would take a route past the frontages of all the quality hotels in inner-city Manchester?

People arriving in Manchester at a railway station or coach station would normally use a taxi to transport them and their luggage direct to the hotel, where hotel staff are there to deal with the luggage.

It's not the guests who mostly use the tram, PS; its the staff. Hotels have been a boom industry in central Manchester in recent years; and all rely heavily on being able to attract low-paid staff for shifts outside of normal working hours. Very few hotel employees can afford to run a car; so the availability of public transport into the city centre early and late has strongly supported the tendency for budget hotels to concentrate on central sites.

Despite the seemingly believed view that TfGM worship before the God called "Tram", have you made yourself familiar with the TfGM road plans for high=frequency bus corridors currently in progress, one of which comes from Middleton to Manchester if my memory serves me true and then, whether you like it or not, there is the Leigh Guided Busway that April seems to be spoken of.

Being seventy years of age and having always to be careful since the stroke suffered in July 2012 and the two subsequent mini-strokes, I would also add that I am personally resident external to the borders of the TfGM empire and not being one who visits Manchester on a daily basis, I speak to those who actually do. I also endeavour to ensure that TfGM keep[ me on their e-mailing databases for all transport related projects.

I am most interested in proposals for enhanced bus services; a subject dear to my heart; and if you can point me to good sources of information and positive examples of successful application, I would be most grateful. Even more if you have your own personal experiences and reflections to add.

The proposal for a cross-city bus route from Central Manchester Hospitals to Middleton seems to have gone strangely quiet; all the attention has been on the Leigh busway. First are running their extended 42 service linking the two - but not for the most part using the new bus lanes so far as I can see. In part the current works on Portland Street support this scheme; as it is intended to run from Princess Street through Piccadilly, and up Rochdale Road. Maybe when these works are completed, a rapid cross-city bus service along this route will be announced. Do you have more recent info?

The busway is looking more tangible; and I have great hopes for it. My concern is that - within the constraints of current dergulated bus operation - the busway will prove a lot less ambitious (and carry many fewer passengers) than could otherwise have been. Ideally, I would like to see the busway on the tram maps, and with through tickets purchasable from the tram-stop to busway destinations, and vice versa. But instead it appears that it might be run as a proprietaray 'First' operation. Which would be a shame, but we will soon see.

But on the general point; your implication that busway services might be less disruptive to current travellers and fronting businesses will, I fear, ring rather hollow with commuters along the East Lancs Road, and businesses in Leigh and Tyldesley.

There is, alas, no pain-free way to deliver a radical expansion in transport capacity and access.

 

[Altfish]

I hardly know Manchester, as I've already said, but I do know Croydon quite well and saw the appalling effect the works in George Street in particular had on local shops and businesses there. My sympathy with them is not only because I've owned a small shop for 28 years and know how matters out of your control can have a devastating effect on your business.

A one mile long tunnel is a feat of engineering not to be undertaken lightly but the above-surface disruption over one mile of city streets would be far greater in the short and medium term and can lead to reasonably prosperous areas becoming wastelands of boarded-up shops, with all the consequent loss of income to the authorities. That said, I am a proponent of trams in the right places,using the right construction methods.

Alternatively the area can boom when the works are complete. There is no where on the Manchester Metrolink system that has gone downhill once the trams arrive. Most, if not all, areas have flourished by the presence of trams.

 

[daodao]

The proposal for a cross-city bus route from Central Manchester Hospitals to Middleton seems to have gone strangely quiet

There is already a frequent First bus service (route 18) from Middleton/Langley to MRI via Rochdale Rd.

 

[nerd]

thanks dd;

Not sure why I was expecting it to be the 42 - but I stand corrected.

Edit - looking back I see that First extended the 18 route to the MRI back in October 2012, well before any works had been undertaken on the Cross-City Bus route by TfGM - albeit that it had already been announced, and was under consultation. But the funny thing is that First are not promoting the 18 in their 'Cross-connect' branding, whereas they are promoting the 42.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It's not the guests who mostly use the tram, PS; its the staff. Hotels have been a boom industry in central Manchester in recent years; and all rely heavily on being able to attract low-paid staff for shifts outside of normal working hours. Very few hotel employees can afford to run a car; so the availability of public transport into the city centre early and late has strongly supported the tendency for budget hotels to concentrate on central sites.

I note your comparison to hotel staff in central Manchester being served by the 3CC aspirational system in a way that equates to that of the existing Airport Metrolink line bringing staff into Manchester Airport. Whilst it may be said that there are a number of reasons why the Manchester Airport line does indeed benefit from this, one has to consider the actual number of employees at Manchester Airport, whereas the hotel's employee population of the central Manchester core is, I am sure you will agree, insignificant in comparison.

You say that very few inner-city Manchester hotel employees can afford to run a car, to which they would also have parking costs to add to their weekly commute, but have this particular part of the poorly-paid Manchester employment population suddenly completely forgotten the bus as a mode of public transport, with far more bus stops than Metrolink stops and bus services that run to and from places such as Middleton, where Metrolink remains an aspiration too far.

I don't wish to bear the SSC cross that was oft placed upon my shoulders so repeated on this website, but reality of such a scenario to which you seem to aspire is one without any commercial and financial reasoning whatsoever. Before you know it, there will be those full of social conscience of the poorer members of the population be demanding tramway extensions in order that Big Issue sellers can arrive at their place of selling.

 

[edwin_m]

I note your comparison to hotel staff in central Manchester being served by the 3CC aspirational system in a way that equates to that of the existing Airport Metrolink line bringing staff into Manchester Airport. Whilst it may be said that there are a number of reasons why the Manchester Airport line does indeed benefit from this, one has to consider the actual number of employees at Manchester Airport, whereas the hotel's employee population of the central Manchester core is, I am sure you will agree, insignificant in comparison.

You say that very few inner-city Manchester hotel employees can afford to run a car, to which they would also have parking costs to add to their weekly commute, but have this particular part of the poorly-paid Manchester employment population suddenly completely forgotten the bus as a mode of public transport, with far more bus stops than Metrolink stops and bus services that run to and from places such as Middleton, where Metrolink remains an aspiration too far.

It's not just hotel staff, the shops also rely on bringing in employees from the suburbs.

The bus has its place but just wouldn't be able to cope with the number of people that need to come into central Manchester if it is to prosper and grow as people wish. Once a city gets above a certain size it needs something more than buses, and most continental cities the size of Manchester would have a Metro or extensive tram network as well as much more suburban rail. This tends to mean that buses are rare in the city centre, as they act as rail feeders in the suburbs.

 

[nerd]

I note your comparison to hotel staff in central Manchester being served by the 3CC aspirational system in a way that equates to that of the existing Airport Metrolink line bringing staff into Manchester Airport. Whilst it may be said that there are a number of reasons why the Manchester Airport line does indeed benefit from this, one has to consider the actual number of employees at Manchester Airport, whereas the hotel's employee population of the central Manchester core is, I am sure you will agree, insignificant in comparison.

You say that very few inner-city Manchester hotel employees can afford to run a car, to which they would also have parking costs to add to their weekly commute, but have this particular part of the poorly-paid Manchester employment population suddenly completely forgotten the bus as a mode of public transport, with far more bus stops than Metrolink stops and bus services that run to and from places such as Middleton, where Metrolink remains an aspiration too far.

I don't wish to bear the SSC cross that was oft placed upon my shoulders so repeated on this website, but reality of such a scenario to which you seem to aspire is one without any commercial and financial reasoning whatsoever. Before you know it, there will be those full of social conscience of the poorer members of the population be demanding tramway extensions in order that Big Issue sellers can arrive at their place of selling.

As it happens, the hotel and restaurant industry in the city centre employs very similar numbers to the Airport - around 20,000 at the last census. And - unlike with the airport - these employees are very largely dependent on public transport.

And I fully agree with you that bus provision ought to be seen as a high value component in a future overall public transport system. The problem is that this is a minority view. It certainly is not (currently) the view of residents of Leigh, and Tyldesley; some of whom have been most vocal in denouncing the busway as a wholly inadequate substitute for a tram.

This is part of a much wider development issue around urban public transport - which brings us back very much to the specific subject of this thread. Long-term use of private cars for urban commuting is dropping - though cars remain the largest commuting mode. But where there are good alternatives, commuters are increasingly inclined use take them in preference; trains, trams and bikes.

But not (outside London), buses - or at least not for trips much over 4-5 miles. Which is a problem; because in practice, buses are the most practicable mode for delivering alternative provision to most areas, in terms of cost-effective public investment.

So we need a form of bus transport provision, complementary to a tram, that reluctant commuting drivers - a very large number of people it would appear - will accept as a good alternative. In my view, this implies a network of enhanced rapid buses serving radial corridors not adequately serveable by trams - Middleton, Denton, Withington, Urmston, Leigh; and also counterpart inner urban destinations - Manchester Uni, Salford Uni, Christie and Central Manchester hospitals. Preferably a network that integrates with the tram both in service connection and in full through ticketing.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

So we need a form of bus transport provision, complementary to a tram, that reluctant commuting drivers - a very large number of people it would appear - will accept as a good alternative. In my view, this implies a network of enhanced rapid buses serving radial corridors not adequately serveable by trams - Middleton, Denton, Withington, Urmston, Leigh; and also counterpart inner urban destinations - Manchester Uni, Salford Uni, Christie and Central Manchester hospitals. Preferably a network that integrates with the tram both in service connection and in full through ticketing.

I do not wish to let our discussions lose their sense of friendship and equilibrium, but whilst I certainly take your point made above regarding tram-free areas such as Middleton (a settlement already noted by me in an earlier posting) and Denton, I would ask you to note the following:-
Withington....already has a Metrolink stop there on the East Didsbury Line
Urmston.......already has a heavy-rail railway station
Leigh...........soon to be served by the Leigh Guided Busway

Salford University is well served by both buses and trains, having a modern albeit narrow platform heavy rail station that has had a new ticket office built at approach road level and platform lengthenings.

One can only but hope that soon, a co-ordinated network including full through ticketing will be a concentration for the corporate mind of TfGM. This appears to cast aspersions on the old adage..."What Manchester does today, London does tomorrow"..:roll:

With regards to previous postings such as the First Manchester 18 bus service from Langley to the MRI, would I be right in thinking that Stagecoach Manchester now run an extended 50 bus service from Parrs Wood (East Didsbury) to Salford Quays that serves the MRI and Salford Shopping Centre en route.

I will end this reading for today by admitting that I feel that as an outsider to these discussions, living external to the TfGM empire, I should not really be adding "my tuppence"...

 

[snowball]

Withington....already has a Metrolink stop there on the East Didsbury Line

Thought there has been much complaint that the stop named "Withington" is not in or very near Withington.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Thought there has been much complaint that the stop named "Withington" is not in or very near Withington.

I have checked upon the name of the church opposite and have been assured that it is called St Bernadette's, Withington.

The next stop along is that of Burton Road, which is said to be in Withington.

 

[nerd]

I have checked upon the name of the church opposite and have been assured that it is called St Bernadette's, Withington.

The next stop along is that of Burton Road, which is said to be in Withington.

Withington , way back in the day, designated the whole area between Manchester and Didsbury - so Withington Hospital, Withington Town Hall, and Withington Road may all be found a fair way away from what is now Withington Village centre. As too, of course, was the original Withington railway station, and the current Withington tram stop.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I do not wish to let our discussions lose their sense of friendship and equilibrium, but whilst I certainly take your point made above regarding tram-free areas such as Middleton (a settlement already noted by me in an earlier posting) and Denton, I would ask you to note the following:-
Withington....already has a Metrolink stop there on the East Didsbury Line
Urmston.......already has a heavy-rail railway station
Leigh...........soon to be served by the Leigh Guided Busway

Salford University is well served by both buses and trains, having a modern albeit narrow platform heavy rail station that has had a new ticket office built at approach road level and platform lengthenings.

One can only but hope that soon, a co-ordinated network including full through ticketing will be a concentration for the corporate mind of TfGM. This appears to cast aspersions on the old adage..."What Manchester does today, London does tomorrow"..:roll:

With regards to previous postings such as the First Manchester 18 bus service from Langley to the MRI, would I be right in thinking that Stagecoach Manchester now run an extended 50 bus service from Parrs Wood (East Didsbury) to Salford Quays that serves the MRI and Salford Shopping Centre en route.

I will end this reading for today by admitting that I feel that as an outsider to these discussions, living external to the TfGM empire, I should not really be adding "my tuppence"...

You are entirely right about the 50 bus PS. As too about the CLC commuter rail link into Manchester from Urmston; and the mainline rail station at Salford Crescent.

The problem is that none of these are integrated into a connected transport network. In theory, you might think that you could take a tram to Deansgate Castlefield, and then a train to Salford Uni; but in practice most trains to Salford don't stop at Deansgate. Or you might think it would be possible to connect from a tram at St Peters Square tram stop(when it was still open) onto the Metroshuttle bus which passes along Peter Street; but signage to the bus stop from the tram stop was non-existent. Or you might have wanted to connect from tram to bus, so as to make a trip from Oldham to Manchester Uni - but there is no way of finding out how to do that at the Oldham tram stop; nor is it clear which ticket you would need to buy.

Partly this is simple lack of imagination from TfGM; but also inhibiting matters is the fare structure of the bus providers. In general, these structures are optimised to minimise cross-operator and cross-mode connections; and maximise single operator trips. Hence weekly ticket prices - for one operator only - are held cheap; while single trips (and hence connected trips) are overcharged. Until this is remedied, I can only see the expansion of bus patronage as being severely constricted. But the current industry structure does not encouragd operators to invest in growing the whole bus market; only in protecting their own share of that market.

 

[Sidious]

Why can't a tram tunnel operate line of sight? A tram is just a road vehicle.

It can. On Metrolink Collyhurst tunnel now operates Line of Sight and Heaton Park Tunnel will be converted from block signalling to LoS by the summer. They have variable speed limits operated by axle counters so if a tram is in the tunnel the speed limit is reduced.

The biggest obstacle to expansion is now Cornbrook.

The present timetable sees the following:
Bury - East Didsbury; Eccles - Piccadilly; Altrincham - Etihad (all run as doubles) and Airport - Cornbrook; Altrincham - Deansgate Castlefield (singles) all on a 12 minute frequency each giving 30 tph in each direction.

The bidders to run the system have been invited to consider running all services as singles on a six minute schedule.

It's likely that Bury - Altrincham will get doubles every 12 minutes as there is already Bury - Piccadilly and Altrincham - Deansgate Castlefield singles running alternately giving a 6 minute service on both ends of the route.

So that's trams from East Didsbury, Airport, Altrincham, Trafford Park/Port Salford and Eccles each passing through Cornbrook every 6 minutes which is potentially 50 tph in each direction. It's unlikely that the current layout could accommodate much more, in fact that's probably pushing the limits of what is achievable. As soon as there is a glitch or delay it will knock the system out...