• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Future MML services post HS2 and capacity through Trent junctions

Status
Not open for further replies.

CdBrux

Member
Joined
4 Mar 2014
Messages
855
Location
Munich
As for adding a third bridge over the Trent and/or a freight viaduct from the Castle Donington Line to the High Level line to Toton, would it perhaps be better to build any new viaducts to serve high speed services? I'd extend the HS2 alignment to link straight into the route to Nottingham, like this:

You'd still need the blue spur to serve Derby and Sheffield (built with grade separation already in place); and I'd build the main line to Nottingham with height separation north of the river to allow the HS2 mainline to continue through Long Eaton towards Leeds if that was ever decided. We could run closer to EMD station, though, to allow for the possibilty of HS platforms there in future, as part of the station. Note that this alignment does not conflict with @Western Sunset 's freight viaduct proposal.
I see 2 issues with this:
1. You have quite a bit of infrastructure just to serve Nottingham, hard to see that could be justified
2. Nottingham trains would not be able to call at EMP, that would then need to be the Sheffield / Derby trains. I would guess the thinking could be the other way round for two reasons, one to better balance passenger numbers and two to avoid adding an extra stop to Sheffield originating trains
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Nottingham59

Established Member
Joined
10 Dec 2019
Messages
2,677
Location
Nottingham
You have quite a bit of infrastructure just to serve Nottingham,
Yes, it probably only works if they / a future government decides to extend HS2 further north after all. Which rather means that local services in the East Midlands are going to be constrained by HS2's presence for years to come.
 

MarkyT

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2012
Messages
6,968
Location
Torbay
I see 2 issues with this:
1. You have quite a bit of infrastructure just to serve Nottingham, hard to see that could be justified
2. Nottingham trains would not be able to call at EMP, that would then need to be the Sheffield / Derby trains. I would guess the thinking could be the other way round for two reasons, one to better balance passenger numbers and two to avoid adding an extra stop to Sheffield originating trains
Add new independent platforms at EMP for Nottingham HS2 trains.
For Derby I'd diverge from HS2 earlier, near Tonge and build a more direct spur into Derby using the Sinfin branch and Burton line for entry into the city from the south. Might be possible to ease the curve at the branch junction a little, although it's no worse than the MML curve into the station from Trent, albeit further out. A more direct route and missing out EMP should do wonders for journey times to Derby and north thereof.
For the Nottingham spur I'd avoid the Attenborough squeeze by following Remembrance Way to Barton then swinging over the river to Beeston, avoiding most of the wetlands. From Beeston it should be possible to provide a largely independent pair into Nottingham within existing boundaries.
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
15,302
Location
Bristol
Some more crayoning...
Tbh, for a pure blue-sky exercise, it's not impossible.
- Losing the low-level line would be tricky unless DBC are being kicked out of Toton, although as it's only Yard access a link could be provided to the HL line.
- Losing the EMP-Castle Donington link will be operationally painful, as trains for the WCML would be forced through Leicester.
- HS2 taking the secondary alignment to the MML is somewhat odd - land take may be better if the MML were to accept a hit and the Down Line swerve out to give HS2 the cleaner line.
- the alignment of some of your single-track connections is likely to be very tight, probably to the point of no improvement over today's speeds through the junctions. Again, for local trains this isn't the end of the world.
But overall a top effort.
 

MarkyT

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2012
Messages
6,968
Location
Torbay
Some more crayoning...
I see your excellent crayons and raise you my independent spurs as far as possible towards Derby (orange) and Nottingham (blue) centres. My route via Sinfin saves 14km to Derby versus via EMP. No track changes are required at all around Trent. Split level station at East Midlands Hub with dedicated new high-level platforms for HS2.
eastmidlands.jpg
 

Nottingham59

Established Member
Joined
10 Dec 2019
Messages
2,677
Location
Nottingham
My route via Sinfin saves 14km to Derby versus via EMP.
Taking out the requirement to serve Derby via EMD certainly makes the track layouts easier there. And the existing Sinfin siding and the old line through Melbourne give a natural route to Derby which seems to be relatively clear of new obstructions. I like it! What do we think the chances are of them taking up this option?
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
15,302
Location
Bristol
I see your excellent crayons and raise you my independent spurs as far as possible towards Derby (orange) and Nottingham (blue) centres. My route via Sinfin saves 14km to Derby versus via EMP. No track changes are required at all around Trent. Split level station at East Midlands Hub with dedicated new high-level platforms for HS2.
Very good! Although there's no option to split your trains for Derby/Nottingham/Sheffield portions, so would this require 200m trains into Euston?
Taking out the requirement to serve Derby via EMD certainly makes the track layouts easier there. And the existing Sinfin siding and the old line through Melbourne give a natural route to Derby which seems to be relatively clear of new obstructions. I like it! What do we think the chances are of them taking up this option?
If by 'them' you mean HS2 ltd/DfT then 0. Derby will not be getting track that wasn't proposed when the stuff that was proposed is being cut back for costs.
 

MarkyT

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2012
Messages
6,968
Location
Torbay
Very good! Although there's no option to split your trains for Derby/Nottingham/Sheffield portions, so would this require 200m trains into Euston?
At Derby, I think platforms #1 and #2 would be capable of lengthening from approx 330m today to 400m standage without any track changes, although signals would need moving. Chesterfield could be extended to 400m fairly easily at the south end, with removal of some sidings. A remodelling of Sheffield in connection with electrification and resignalling could probably achieve 400m on at least some platforms. East Midlands high-level platforms could be 400m from new, leaving only Nottingham to deal with, where platforms #6 and #7 could probably achieve 400m clear of the A60 bridge, which has some spare openings for a remodelled east end throat junction further east, probably at the cost of the depot to the east, whose land might make a useful small stabling yard for HS trains. Alternatively, Nottingham portions might be split from (say) Macclesfields or Liverpools at Birmingham Interchange.
 
Joined
5 Aug 2011
Messages
789
My attempt based on Western Sunset's contributions. My attempt to colour code shows Leicester to Nottingham or Derby/Sheffield services in green, HS2 services in pink, Derby-Nottingham in orange and MML slows and fright lines in Blue.

Essentially the MML is increased to 5 tracks South of the station until HS2 branches off and is 6 tracked over the Tent via a new bore and bride so Fright is kept separate from passenger services.

I have tried to keep conflicts at Tent South to a minimum with only the Sheffield/Derby to Leicester services having to cross to access platform 4 and the hourly Ivanhoe stopper crossing from the new lines over the Trent to access the Nottingham lines.

Thoughts?
 

Attachments

  • IMG_0454.JPG
    IMG_0454.JPG
    1.1 MB · Views: 54
Last edited:

Western Sunset

Established Member
Joined
23 Dec 2014
Messages
2,832
Location
Wimborne, Dorset
I don't think the suggestion of a separate HS2 link to Derby will ever progress, though the idea is an interesting one.

Pros
Shorter direct route to Derby (and Sheffield)
Reduces conflicts/movements around Trent
Avoids the two-track Trent - Derby line

Cons
A substantial amount of new construction
New alignment needed around Chellaston itself as trackbed now covered with housing
The railway would pass through the centre of the Rolls-Royce complex
Sharp curve at Melbourne Jn onto line from B'ham, with no space for grade separation
Line misses East Midlands Hub, which I see as a growing development
£££ as ever
 

MarkyT

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2012
Messages
6,968
Location
Torbay
Cons
New alignment needed around Chellaston itself as trackbed now covered with housing
New alignment needed anyway to maintain grade separation from Castle Donnington freight line
Sharp curve at Melbourne Jn onto line from B'ham, with no space for grade separation
Around 500m radius which should allow a speed of around 60mph speed. Might be eased a little to around 600m radius for a small speed gain if some adjacent property purchased. Grade separation not really relevant as the HS2 spur would become the 'main line' around which other services would be planned and regulated. Melbourne Jn curve is a lot wider than the MML curve in from Spondon just south of Derby station which is approx 170m radius.
Line misses East Midlands Hub, which I see as a growing development
That can be served by Nottingham trains. I don't think it needs more than 2 London HS2 trains per hour.
hs2derbyspur.jpg
 

WideRanger

Member
Joined
15 Jun 2016
Messages
358
I see your excellent crayons and raise you my independent spurs as far as possible towards Derby (orange) and Nottingham (blue) centres. My route via Sinfin saves 14km to Derby versus via EMP. No track changes are required at all around Trent. Split level station at East Midlands Hub with dedicated new high-level platforms for HS2.
View attachment 106241
Your blue line into Nottingham would have to go over or through some significant hills, then across a very wide flood-plain - presumably on stilts, and then over some very deep ex gravel pits in Attenborough nature reserve. Looks expensive...
 

MarkyT

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2012
Messages
6,968
Location
Torbay
Your blue line into Nottingham would have to go over or through some significant hills, then across a very wide flood-plain - presumably on stilts, and then over some very deep ex gravel pits in Attenborough nature reserve. Looks expensive...
Crossing the valley as close to Beeston as possible should limit impact on the sensitive nature reserve. If technically feasible it is perhaps the only realistic way of widening through Attenborough, as houses have been built very close to the existing double-track railway and you can't create a new alignment on the north side of the river clear of the houses, as that would destroy most of the wetland reserve. From Ashby-de-la-Zouch dropping down to Kegworth is following the original HS2 design anyway:
hs2original.jpg
From Kegworth to Beeston my alignment looks like this:
hs2nottinghamspur.jpg
Assuming what HS2 have already designed, dropping down from Kegworth to the valley floor, is practical, the only major new hill to penetrate is highlighted above in the elevation view, most likely needing a tunnel, also handy for passing beneath a major road junction on Remembrance Way. I'm assuming the Power station will have closed before construction as intended in 2024 so the new railway has some freedom for flexibility in the detailed design of the alignment.
 

InTheEastMids

Member
Joined
31 Jan 2016
Messages
999
There's some good ideas been proposed...

However, I think if HS2 cancellation is primarily to save money, then I find it a bit hard to believe that a new railway into Nottingham will be funded, and if they were proposing it (or even investigating it), I am *sure* a huge song & dance would be made about it.

I think the very best we can hope for is 2 new HS2 platforms at East Midlands Parkway, and then a package of interventions to improve capacity at Trent/Sheet Stores.
Again, hard to believe that NR's concept of removing Sheet Stores and building a new railway to South of East Mids Parkway (as mentioned in earlier posts and the 2016 & 2019 studies will get backing in the current climate.

However, it feels entirely possible that it'll be a bare minimum.

Presumably the be downsized Toton will get service from Nottingham to Leeds & Liverpool services, but I guess that's only going to further impact journey times and congestion around Beeston?
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
26,781
Location
Nottingham
Presumably the be downsized Toton will get service from Nottingham to Leeds & Liverpool services, but I guess that's only going to further impact journey times and congestion around Beeston?
It's far more likely to be a service to EM Parkway (for HS2 connections and to link two potential development sites) and on to Leicester, which would add very little to congestion at Trent. The tram provides service from Toton into Nottingham, and the Liverpool and Leeds trains are slow enough already without diverting them.
 

adrock1976

Established Member
Joined
10 Dec 2013
Messages
4,450
Location
What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
Regarding the HS2 service level for the East Midlands Region, is it intended for there to be:

2x Euston - Sheffield via Derby
2x Euston - Nottingham
2x Birmingham Curzon Street - Nottingham?

Also, is it also intended for the classic InterCity services from St Pancras to reduce to every 60 minutes to each of Nottingham and Sheffield via Derby (providing a combined frequency of every 30 minutes between St Pancras and East Mids Parkway)?

Although Leicester has 4tph InterCity, northbound departures are 3 minutes apart with arrival at Leicester 8-9 minutes apart from each other, and southbound they depart Leicester 8-9 minutes apart and arrive at St Pancras broadly 15 minutes apart from each other in every half hour period. Because the St Pancras - Bedford Midland section is shared with Thameslink, there is very little flexibility to radically alter the timetable without having to alter almost everything south of the Thames as well. Perhaps the xx02 and xx32 (present day Sheffield non stop Leicester) could be left vacant for additional relief trains and recovery purposes?

If the frequency is reduced to 60 minutes to each of Nottingham and Sheffield, I would have these running in double formation so as to compensate for the reduction in frequency in particular on the Leicester - St Pancras section. Also, if the maths regarding the number of 810s work out, I would suggest sending the St Pancras - Sheffield to York via Pontefract Baghill as that is the shortest route (and sends it out of the way to a station with a long enough south facing bay platform), and there only being one south facing terminating platform at Sheffield Midland which would obviously be dedicated to the HS2 services.

I think I may have mentioned in a previous post that the reduction in frequency on the Derby - Leicester section could be compensated by running a Leicester local calling at the Ivanhoe Project Phase I stations, which would double the frequency at them to every 30 minutes. I am unsure if it would also be worthwhile doubling the frequency to every 30 minutes on the Matlock branch - obviously this would require a passing loop or dynamic loop somewhere (to save clogging up Derby station with a terminating train, I have thought starting from and sending it to Matlock so as it is out of the way).
 

Nottingham59

Established Member
Joined
10 Dec 2019
Messages
2,677
Location
Nottingham
The government has published "Strategic Alternatives to High Speed 2 Phase 2b: MML, ECML and Eastern Leg Combined Options". It's dated 13th October 2021, but I think it's only just been made public.

The current proposal to address the capacity constraints of the Trent Triangle is grade separation at Trent East junction. And merging HS2 onto the MML slows south of East Midlands Parkway. I don't understand how those will work, but we will see.

See section 4.4.3, page 40:
https://assets.publishing.service.g...gic-alternatives-to-high-speed-2-phase-2b.pdf

The proposed intervention is the same as under the MML Strategic Alternative. Namely, grade
separation of Trent East Junction and an improvement of the line speed over Sheet Stores
Junction. Unlike in the MML alternative where the Sheet Stores Junction work is desirable, in
this Hybrid option the work is a key requirement.
 

Western Sunset

Established Member
Joined
23 Dec 2014
Messages
2,832
Location
Wimborne, Dorset
A very interesting read. Pity some maps/track layout diagram ideas weren't included to aid clarity. Also, the writer doesn't seem to appreciate the difference between the meanings of IEP and IET.
 

Glenn1969

Established Member
Joined
22 Jan 2019
Messages
1,983
Location
Halifax, Yorks
The government has published "Strategic Alternatives to High Speed 2 Phase 2b: MML, ECML and Eastern Leg Combined Options". It's dated 13th October 2021, but I think it's only just been made public.

The current proposal to address the capacity constraints of the Trent Triangle is grade separation at Trent East junction. And merging HS2 onto the MML slows south of East Midlands Parkway. I don't understand how those will work, but we will see.

See section 4.4.3, page 40:
https://assets.publishing.service.g...gic-alternatives-to-high-speed-2-phase-2b.pdf
Why do I read this and think there's nothing at all in it for Leeds?
 

Nottingham59

Established Member
Joined
10 Dec 2019
Messages
2,677
Location
Nottingham
Pity some maps/track layout diagram ideas weren't included to aid clarity.
I don't think they got that far. They recognise that trains from HS2 to Nottingham have to pass over Nottingham to Derby flows. But I don't think there's enough distance to get HS2 trains over the Derby line and then under the high-level freight line. And you can't lower the Nottingham-Derby chord without cutting the low-level access to Toton.
 

Glenn1969

Established Member
Joined
22 Jan 2019
Messages
1,983
Location
Halifax, Yorks
The government has published "Strategic Alternatives to High Speed 2 Phase 2b: MML, ECML and Eastern Leg Combined Options". It's dated 13th October 2021, but I think it's only just been made public.

The current proposal to address the capacity constraints of the Trent Triangle is grade separation at Trent East junction. And merging HS2 onto the MML slows south of East Midlands Parkway. I don't understand how those will work, but we will see.

See section 4.4.3, page 40:
https://assets.publishing.service.g...gic-alternatives-to-high-speed-2-phase-2b.pdf
Now I have read the full document is there any chance of "First Phase to Leeds" plus either the Newark or Erewash alignments being selected? Or will end up with barely more than the Do Minimum ?
 

Nottingham59

Established Member
Joined
10 Dec 2019
Messages
2,677
Location
Nottingham

Glenn1969

Established Member
Joined
22 Jan 2019
Messages
1,983
Location
Halifax, Yorks
I don't think so. The decision was announced in November with the Integrated Rail Plan. The above paper just gives more details behind that decision. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/integrated-rail-plan-for-the-north-and-the-midlands
There is zero benefit in that for us in Yorkshire, apart of course from NPR. Which might open when I'm 70 (Sept 2039) if I'm lucky. Thought Shapps said the IRP would bring benefits 15 years earlier than the Eastern leg in full to the North? I can't see many benefits in those timescales
 

cle

Established Member
Joined
17 Nov 2010
Messages
4,675
So St Pancras will have the 2tph to Corby per 'today', 2tph semi-fast to Derby/Nottingham and then 2tph non-stop to Leicester, correct?

It's still 6tph, but will lose most Notts and Derby passengers to Euston, I would expect. Might get a bit sad again in there. A shame there isn't a north-facing platform somewhere to start back from - like Moorgate could have been perfect for 3-4tph EMUS to Leicester and Notts/Derby. Corby to TL. Do some platform shuffling at St P!

Back to reality, at least Luton, Luton AP and Bedford gain some regional services (and fasts to London).

There is also the Bedford-Leeds in the plan (which will also call Wellingborough, Kettering, MH and so on) - so local MML services and station pairs are further covered there - presumably enabling said Leicester expresses. So it's good for Bedford, and their designs on that mega-station - and EWR having more options north and south. They'd have 4 MML service per hour (2 x Corby, 1 x Nott, 1 x Leeds) and 3tph to London, with one terminating.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
26,781
Location
Nottingham
Bedford Leeds is no more than a Midlands aspiration. I haven’t seen it favoured in any of the IRP documents (unlike Birmingham Nottingham) and I doubt it is the best use of a path through Trent.
 

cle

Established Member
Joined
17 Nov 2010
Messages
4,675
Bedford Leeds is no more than a Midlands aspiration. I haven’t seen it favoured in any of the IRP documents (unlike Birmingham Nottingham) and I doubt it is the best use of a path through Trent.
If there are no possible paths south of Bedford (towards Luton) - then surely there aren't too many choices.

I see it as an evolution of the current Leeds-Nottingham service (it appears to route via Nottingham) - and so more regional in nature. I doubt there is too much Bedford-Leeds demand in itself, but many many pairs along the route, per XC.

Perhaps it could run on towards Bletchley and Oxford instead, if Bedford is underwhelming as a terminus?
 

HST43257

Established Member
Joined
10 Apr 2020
Messages
1,645
Location
York
This is what I’d do for EMR Intercity post HS2

  • 1tph London to Corby calling at Luton Airport Parkway, Luton, Bedford, Wellingborough, Kettering and Corby.
  • 1tph London to Leeds calling at Luton Airport Parkway, Luton, Bedford, Wellingborough, Kettering, Market Harborough, Leicester, Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield Wakefield Westgate and Leeds.
  • 1tph London to Nottingham calling at Kettering, Market Harborough, Leicester, Loughborough, Beeston and Nottingham.
  • 1tph London to Matlock calling at Kettering, Market Harborough, Leicester, Loughborough, Long Eaton, Derby and Matlock.
  • 1tph London to Mansfield calling at Leicester, Loughborough, Toton and Mansfield.
  • 1tph London to Leicester calling at Leicester only.

That final Leicester service could extend to Melton Mowbray perhaps, or it could just be cut.

The Matlock service would require an upgrade of that branch which, I think, is needed.

I don’t believe Corby justifies 2tph, so I decided to divert one to Leeds to cater for the Bedford to Leeds proposal, plus the keeping of the Leicester to Derby+Sheffield proper fast service.

I think there is a market at Toton, and I’d like to see Alfreton or Mansfield with a decent intercity service. Would there be any reason to extend it to Worksop and potentially Grimsby or Lincoln?

I’ve tried to largely go with the service patterns coming out of London (2 nonstop to Luton AP then all EMR stops, 2 first stop Kettering and 2 first stop Leicester).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top