Future of Class 379

[RobShipway]

The main issue with them or the 350s going to Scotrail is that the fleets being renewed in Scotland are 3 car units and the whole infrastructure is set up to accomodate that.

Yes, there are 4 car class 380s and 385s running around - but those run on very specific routes. The bulk of the service provision is 3 or 6 cars. Very few stations can cope with 8 cars - and a single 4 car would be inadequate in place of a 6 car.

Surely, that depends on the length of the carriages in the unit?

 

[Peter Sarf]

Surely, that depends on the length of the carriages in the unit?

For Scotland the argument is the current 3 x 20 metre carriage units vs the available 4 x 20 metre carriage units from else where. If coaches were longer the alternative would have to be 2 x 30 m carriage trains ! and, more likely, 5 x 24 m carriage trains.

 

[Clansman]

For Scotland the argument is the current 3 x 20 metre carriage units vs the available 4 x 20 metre carriage units from else where. If coaches were longer the alternative would have to be 2 x 30 m carriage trains ! and, more likely, 5 x 24 m carriage trains.

Not sure what you're meaning with that argument.

Most platforms in Scotland are a minimum of 6 x 23m, it's just the Glasgow and wider Strathclyde region that have platforms constrained to 6 x 20m on the suburban electrics. In most cases there's either just enough room to accomodate 6 x 23m on them, or room to be able to extend the platforms an extra few metres.

 

[Snow1964]

The latest GTR Business Plan commitments 2023-24

Per section 25.1 GTR are to procure between 84 and 120 vehicles of 4car EMUs (21-30 units)

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1174405/govia-thameslink-railway-limited-2022-business-plan-commitments-2023-2024.pdf

Could they be 379s, and if so how many ?

 

[jackot]

The latest GTR Business Plan commitments 2023-24

Per section 25.1 GTR are to procure between 84 and 120 vehicles of 4car EMUs (21-30 units)

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1174405/govia-thameslink-railway-limited-2022-business-plan-commitments-2023-2024.pdf

Could they be 379s, and if so how many ?

Sounds like it doesn't it. I've always thought that if anyone would take them on again it would be GTR; they must have upwards of 250 of the 'leccystars at this point.

If the 379s don't win the tender, then what would? I can't see them wanting to introduce a new fleet type like Aventras into the mix, same goes with the used options like 350s.

I know all sorts of internal cascades between GN and SN have been discussed on here and I haven't really been keeping up, so would it still likely be the case that if chosen GN would have these, and pass their 378s down to Southern if they do procure the 379s?

 

[Trainbike46]

Sounds like it doesn't it. I've always thought that if anyone would take them on again it would be GTR; they must have upwards of 250 of the 'leccystars at this point.

If the 379s don't win the tender, then what would? I can't see them wanting to introduce a new fleet type like Aventras into the mix, same goes with the used options like 350s.

I know all sorts of internal cascades between GN and SN have been discussed on here and I haven't really been keeping up, so would it still likely be the case that if chosen GN would have these, and pass their 378s down to Southern if they do procure the 379s?

The only other alternative I see are the 350s or new-builds, and the 379s seem like a better fit than either of those alternatives.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Not sure what you're meaning with that argument.

Most platforms in Scotland are a minimum of 6 x 23m, it's just the Glasgow and wider Strathclyde region that have platforms constrained to 6 x 20m on the suburban electrics. In most cases there's either just enough room to accomodate 6 x 23m on them, or room to be able to extend the platforms an extra few metres.

I was replying to @RobShipway asking about carriage lengths.

What I meant was a lot EMUS that Scotrail could soon replace are 3 x 20m coaches. Available units from elsewhere seem to be 4-car (379 or 350) x 20m. So modern units would have to stay as 3-car and 20m or use the longer vehicles I mention. Obviously to replace 3 x 20m with longer vehicles could be 2 x 30m but 30m is not feasible. For a 6-car train 5 cars of 23m is feasible, but only if 3 car units are never run in the future.

So Scotrail are likely to be looking at 3 x 20m units running single or in pairs. 379s or 350s would achieve that if one coach can be removed.

 

[RobShipway]

I was replying to @RobShipway asking about carriage lengths.

What I meant was a lot EMUS that Scotrail could soon replace are 3 x 20m coaches. Available units from elsewhere seem to be 4-car (379 or 350) x 20m. So modern units would have to stay as 3-car and 20m or use the longer vehicles I mention. Obviously to replace 3 x 20m with longer vehicles could be 2 x 30m but 30m is not feasible. For a 6-car train 5 cars of 23m is feasible, but only if 3 car units are never run in the future.

So Scotrail are likely to be looking at 3 x 20m units running single or in pairs. 379s or 350s would achieve that if one coach can be removed.

Thanks Guys. So Scotrail would not be interested in either the class 379 or 350, as four car units. The only way would be if the class 379 units where three car trains. Not sure if the carriage not required could be fitted within class 377 units, but if they could, then you could make the class 377/3 units 4 car and have 2 spare carriages, with the three car class 379 going to Scotrail.

 

[D365]

Not sure if the carriage not required could be fitted within class 377 units, but if they could, then you could make the class 377/3 units 4 car and have 2 spare carriages, with the three car class 379 going to Scotrail.

Not without a lot of fiddling (technically and commercially).

 

[jackot]

Not sure if the carriage not required could be fitted within class 377 units, but if they could, then you could make the class 377/3 units 4 car and have 2 spare carriages, with the three car class 379 going to Scotrail.

Not to say it's impossible from a technical standpoint, but operationally Southern really do need a few of their 377 fleet to be 3 car trains, in order to make 10 car services possible on some of their London metro routes so they can maximise their capacity where platform lengths are limited.

As discussed before, software would be an issue too, with 379s running early Aventra software, and the 377s running MITRAC.

 

[JonathanH]

Not to say it's impossible from a technical standpoint, but operationally Southern really do need a few of their 377 fleet to be 3 car trains, in order to make 10 car services possible on some of their London metro routes so they can maximise their capacity where platform lengths are limited.

Very few of the 3-car units are currently used to form 10-car trains, although clearly they have been used that way extensively in previous timetable periods. They are generally being used in 6-car formations via Tulse Hill and 3-car formations on the coast and the Tonbridge route at present.

A 379 > 387 cascade could, for example, allow the Tulse Hill services to return to 8-car, push other metro services back to 10-car, release 4-car 377s to the coast and displace the 387/2s back to allow the return of the Gatwick Express shuttles, but there are lots of other things that could happen.

 

[jackot]

Very few of the 3-car units are currently used to form 10-car trains, although clearly they have been used that way extensively in previous timetable periods. They are generally being used in 6-car formations via Tulse Hill and 3-car formations on the coast and the Tonbridge route at present.

A 379 > 387 cascade could, for example, allow the Tulse Hill services to return to 8-car, push other metro services back to 10-car, release 4-car 377s to the coast and displace the 387/2s back to allow the return of the Gatwick Express shuttles, but there are lots of other things that could happen.

Ah I see. So really more 4 car units for going via Tulse Hill (as 8 car trains) would actually be an improvement in capacity compared to the current timetable. I must have been thinking pre-covid, where many peak services were 10 car.
What you suggested about the cascades that would take place all make a lot of sense, so thank you for clarifying that. Either way then, Southern need to keep some 3 car 377s, even more so if they get some 387s and want to lengthen their existing metro services to 10 car.

 

[JonathanH]

What you suggested about the cascades that would take place all make a lot of sense, so thank you for clarifying that.

For the avoidance of doubt, I was just speculating, but it is an example of how extra units at GTR could lead to a multi route cascade rather than some 'lost' service group being restored.

As you say, the 28 3-car units do give flexibility when it comes to train lengths.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I was going to go more detailed but above posts cover it nicely.

In a nutshell
387s are more compatible with the existing Southern units so 379s would displace the Great Northern 387s to South of the Thames.
Those 387s would free a number but not all Southern 3-car 377/3s.
Incidentally consider what scope is there regarding the South Eastern 375/3s as they are 377/3s but with different couplers only ?.
Historically/Pre-Covid Southern has run 10-car 377 formations comprising 3+3+4. The 377/6s and 377/7s are used in pairs to satisfy some of that - and they are really 387s in disguise.
Note 377s and 387s are not totally compatible but more compatible than 379s iirc.

It is all very tenuous.
379s are expensive - currently.
Why would Southern bother with shuffling units ? - OK they are inviting tenders for ordering 30 odd 4-car units.
Would Scotrail want a microfleet of 20 year old units that are unlikely to satisfy the whole demand for 3-car replacement ?

 

[RobShipway]

I was going to go more detailed but above posts cover it nicely.

In a nutshell
387s are more compatible with the existing Southern units so 379s would displace the Great Northern 387s to South of the Thames.
Those 387s would free a number but not all Southern 3-car 377/3s.
Incidentally consider what scope is there regarding the South Eastern 375/3s as they are 377/3s but with different couplers only ?.
Historically/Pre-Covid Southern has run 10-car 377 formations comprising 3+3+4. The 377/6s and 377/7s are used in pairs to satisfy some of that - and they are really 387s in disguise.
Note 377s and 387s are not totally compatible but more compatible than 379s iirc.

It is all very tenuous.
379s are expensive - currently.
Why would Southern bother with shuffling units ? - OK they are inviting tenders for ordering 30 odd 4-car units.
Would Scotrail want a microfleet of 20 year old units that are unlikely to satisfy the whole demand for 3-car replacement ?

The only trains that Scotrail could possibly want are either the 377/3 or 375/3 units, with being three car units. However, the cost of converting them to be powered by OHLE may put them off. The only way that class 379 would be of interest to Scotrail is if any routes currently running 2+ Class 158/class 170 units where that line is in the process of being or has been electrified.

 

[jackot]

For the avoidance of doubt, I was just speculating, but it is an example of how extra units at GTR could lead to a multi route cascade rather than some 'lost' service group being restored.

As you say, the 28 3-car units do give flexibility when it comes to train lengths.

Yes I completely get its speculative, it just seems to be the most logical speculation I've read on the matter!

 

[Snow1964]

Thanks Guys. So Scotrail would not be interested in either the class 379 or 350, as four car units. The only way would be if the class 379 units where three car trains. .

In theory something like a 707 would work (they were tested on ac when new), but ultimately it depends on if 20m vehicles are longest than can be used

 

[Doomotron]

Incidentally consider what scope is there regarding the South Eastern 375/3s as they are 377/3s but with different couplers only ?.

No, there are more differences than just that. The CCTV system for one, as well as different software I'd assume. Plus the 375/3s are already busy, with most of them being used on the Medway Valley and Sheerness branch.

The only trains that Scotrail could possibly want are either the 377/3 or 375/3 units, with being three car units. However, the cost of converting them to be powered by OHLE may put them off. The only way that class 379 would be of interest to Scotrail is if any routes currently running 2+ Class 158/class 170 units where that line is in the process of being or has been electrified.

There is no way ScotRail would want or be able to get 375/3s or 377/3s. Neither are suitable for suburban work in Scotland, especially the 375s, and they are not AC units. It would be much more sensible to take already AC units and take a coach out, as has been suggested many times with 350/2s (which unlike the Electrostars would be suitable for the services ScotRail would want them for).

 

[Bald Rick]

379s are expensive - currently.

They‘re not expensive as they are off lease.

 

[Peter Sarf]

They‘re not expensive as they are off lease.

Yes of course, they were however expensive when last on lease. But I do wonder what sort of lease would be acceptable to the ROSCO now ?.

 

[JonathanH]

But I do wonder what sort of lease would be acceptable to the ROSCO now ?

Seemingly one which isn't as cheap as the lease on the similar 387s.

 

[Whistler40145]

Could go to Northern for use on services between Leeds and Newcastle once the missing link in the electrification has been completed

 

[Energy]

Seemingly one which isn't as cheap as the lease on the similar 387s.

The 379s would have needed 110mph modifications as well as GWR cosmetics. We don't know how much the 379s would have costed, or if Akiem bothered bidding.

Could go to Northern for use on services between Leeds and Newcastle once the missing link in the electrification has been completed

Going for the Great Northern tender seems far more likely.

 

[dk1]

Could go to Northern for use on services between Leeds and Newcastle once the missing link in the electrification has been completed

Do you mean Leeds & York? Transpennine/Cross Country/LNER operate between those two cities.

 

[Snow1964]

The only trains that Scotrail could possibly want are either the 377/3 or 375/3 units, with being three car units. However, the cost of converting them to be powered by OHLE may put them off. The only way that class 379 would be of interest to Scotrail is if any routes currently running 2+ Class 158/class 170 units where that line is in the process of being or has been electrified.

If it is not a stupid question, would it be possible to switch the intermediate coach between class 379s and 375 or 377, or even switch the pantograph and transformer. Are they same unit that bolts on. I know some 375 and 377 were built as dual voltage.

But if Scotland needed 3car 20m ac units, can the fleets be 'shuffled' so the 4th cars can lengthen some 3car units in south.

 

[RobShipway]

If it is not a stupid question, would it be possible to switch the intermediate coach between class 379s and 375 or 377, or even switch the pantograph and transformer. Are they same unit that bolts on. I know some 375 and 377 were built as dual voltage.

But if Scotland needed 3car 20m ac units, can the fleets be 'shuffled' so the 4th cars can lengthen some 3car units in south.

As has been pointed out in a post above, I don't believe that the carriages of a class 379 are compatible with either class 375 or class 377, so the answer to your question would be no.

 

[03_179]

There are a lot of differences between the various forms of Electrostars.
377/1-5 are very different to 377/6-7. The later are closer to a 387.

379. 376, 375 etc are all different.

 

[warwickshire]

However the longer, they remain in store at Worksop, will that not affect them in long term back into service, especially those from Harwich which sat there for ages. Hopefully GTR maybe soon?

 

[Sutton in Ant]

This is what I think will happen. But, it is only my view and it might not happen. Scotrail will be ordering a whole new fleet of trains to replace the 1s that Scotrail want to replace. Northern. I would say no on that 1 but I think that it is more likely that GTR Great Northern could be the new home for the 379s. If that were to happen? Then, the 387s would come to Southern Railway. I would say that is the most logical thing to happen.

 

[Snow1964]

This is what I think will happen. But, it is only my view and it might not happen. Scotrail will be ordering a whole new fleet of trains to replace the 1s that Scotrail want to replace. Northern. I would say no on that 1 but I think that it is more likely that GTR Great Northern could be the new home for the 379s. If that were to happen? Then, the 387s would come to Southern Railway. I would say that is the most logical thing to happen.

I am sure Scotrail indicated they wanted a standard single design to replace all the older EMUs, and the diesel units of lines being upgraded.

The DfT Business commitments of 21-30 4 car units, suggests 21 units are required, but taking them all might be better bet, assuming lease co doesn't want to be stuck with token number, especially if some 387s can move back to GWR. Almost feels as if Oxford electrification is dead cert (even if not announced).