Future of Heathrow Express

[jon0844]

How would it differentiate between Crossrail and Hex fares

Good question. I often wonder if and when we might get validators ON trains?

Or in the case of HEX as it is, you'd pay more when your card is checked on the train itself. Perhaps by default you'd pay the lower rate.

As it is now, if you don't get checked on HEX (not sure how often that happens, if ever?) and hadn't bought a ticket, you get the journey for free.

 

[Altnabreac]

I would agree that HEX paths would be used for Paddington-Heathrow-Slough-Reading and possibly beyond, but 10tph slow Crossrail service to Heathrow? Where does that come from? Can the Heathrow tunnels handle 14tph?

It's an assumption that at some point the business case will stack up to run all 24tph from the peak core service westwards.

With 6tph West Drayton, 8tph WCML that leaves 10tph which could run to Heathrow. It may not be posssible to fit that all in so it could be 8tph for Heathrow (plus 4tph WRATH) and 8tph for West Drayton instead.

An 8/8/8 service might well be easier to timetable.

 

[edwin_m]

Good question. I often wonder if and when we might get validators ON trains?

Or in the case of HEX as it is, you'd pay more when your card is checked on the train itself. Perhaps by default you'd pay the lower rate.

As it is now, if you don't get checked on HEX (not sure how often that happens, if ever?) and hadn't bought a ticket, you get the journey for free.

You could barrier the HEX platforms at Paddington so that everyone had to validate when joining or leaving them.

 

[Peter Sarf]

On travel convenience/times. Personally I use the X26 bus from outside East Croydon station. It takes ages but minimum of fuss with baggage and costs £1.50 subject to a maximum of £4.40 all day on buses. If the bus is screwed I pay the extra to go to Victoria, down the steps to the District line to Hammersmith, Cross platform change to the Piccadily line.

The only benefits of Heathrow express I can see are :-
For people heading to/from the hotels around Paddington.
For Cab drivers around Paddington.

As for luring people onto the expensive Heathrow Express I do not feel too ashamed of Heathrows methods as I experience it in other Countries. For example the old Bangkok airport (Don Muang) I thoroughly explored.
Most expensive is the pre booked transfer service from your travel agent (booked that once for a nervous traveller).
As you leave immigration you get accosted by people offering the limosine service (sometimes cheaper).
Then you pass the "official" taxi desks which are a lot cheaper.
Then you go outside and find a taxi and pay only what the meter charges plus the express way toll and the charge for the taxi to encroach on airport property cheaper - done that a few times.
Then cheapest of all is to go to departures and get a taxi that has just deposited its passenger for onward air travel (no airport charge) done that lots.
BUT I always insist on the meter being on. As for travel time ? - they all use the same roads so its easy to ignore that factor.

Now as for what will happen to Heathrow Express after Crossrail. I personally believe it will go beyond Paddington as a lot of the expense account customers will be heading to the West End / City / Docklands. It will be a lot more attractive than now regardless of speed. It occurs to me, reading the posts, that the pros and cons of it are similar to all the arguments about Gatwick Express. I think Heathrow (express) will be happy as long as the costs of the track/trains they pay for are covered. After all, I wonder, what was the original motivation for providing Heathrow Express ?. Was it to make money, make Heathrow more attractive or improve the green credentials of the airport.

 

[matt_world2004]

You could barrier the HEX platforms at Paddington so that everyone had to validate when joining or leaving them.

Which in itself would be problematic as crossrail services might have to use the mainline paddington platforms during engineering works or for through the night services, Also Crossrail is going to be initially serving Paddington Mainline rather than Paddington tunnel.

 

[AM9]

.... Now as for what will happen to Heathrow Express after Crossrail. I personally believe it will go beyond Paddington as a lot of the expense account customers will be heading to the West End / City / Docklands. It will be a lot more attractive than now regardless of speed. It occurs to me, reading the posts, that the pros and cons of it are similar to all the arguments about Gatwick Express. I think Heathrow (express) will be happy as long as the costs of the track/trains they pay for are covered. After all, I wonder, what was the original motivation for providing Heathrow Express ?. Was it to make money, make Heathrow more attractive or improve the green credentials of the airport.

I assume that by saying that "it (HEx) will go beyond Paddington", you mean that it will use the Crossrail tunnels. I can't see that at all. The tunnels will be occupied carrying a full service and certainly won't have space for other services, except when nobody would want them, e.g. in the small hours.
Just imagine the confusion for passengers with travelcards catching the first train that arrives at TCR. Unless that becomes part of a deliberate fares trap!
I think that if HEx does survive, it will be in its present form, i.e. a non-stop premium-priced service to Paddington. The only change that i could forsee would be when HS2w opens, it could have a stop at OOC which in terms of business travel, could be worthwhile.

 

[matt_world2004]

I think what will happen with HEX is that the national rail platforms will be placed in zone 6-9(probably zone 6 for consistency with LUL) as a planning consent condition of further expansion of the airport. This will be presented as a way of helping local residents and improving public transport access to Heathrow

Heathrow airport holdings will protest at this condition however. Will secretly be glad as it allows them to dispose of a liability while saving face

The other option I can see is Heathrow Airport Holdings will start wholesaling the tickets for Heathrow Express to airlines. Making it a condition that Heathrow Express tickets are included in the airlines ticket cost. If they wholesaled HEX tickets at £5 each to airlines and 1/6 passengers take up the offer Heathrow airport holdings are still making the same revenue per passenger from the Hex.

 

[JamesRowden]

Heathrow stated its ambition for Heathrow Express last year:

Heathrow has announced its ambition to run its Express service to Slough and Reading along a new link from the Great Western Main line, due to be built by 2021.

https://www.heathrowexpress.com/news/2014/02/09/ambition-for-heathrow-reading-express-service-unveiled

 

[mark-h]

HEX/Connect is used for free (ticketless) landside transfers between Heathrow terminals. This would make it difficult to install barriers. Tube journeys between terminals are free when an Oyster card is used, however not all customers will have a card.

 

[Stats]

Heathrow stated its ambition for Heathrow Express last year:


https://www.heathrowexpress.com/news/2014/02/09/ambition-for-heathrow-reading-express-service-unveiled

That's helpful. Looking at Heathrow's submission to the Airports Commission, it's long term strategy is
HeX 4tph, calling at Old Oak Common, Slough, Maidenhead, Twyford and Reading. At least 2tph continue to Oxford.
Crossrail 8tph (NR have indicated 6tph are possible) with a turnback to the south of Heathrow.
Southern Rail Access 4tph with a turnback at Airport Junction.
No rail access to T4 to facilitate capacity for through services to the east and west.

 

[matt_world2004]

That's helpful. Looking at Heathrow's submission to the Airports Commission, it's long term strategy is
HeX 4tph, calling at Old Oak Common, Slough, Maidenhead, Twyford and Reading. At least 2tph continue to Oxford.
Crossrail 8tph (NR have indicated 6tph are possible) with a turnback to the south of Heathrow.
Southern Rail Access 4tph with a turnback at Airport Junction.
No rail access to T4 to facilitate capacity for through services to the east and west.

If HEX is serving multiple stations, the only way I could see that working is through mutual ticket acceptance and oyster acceptance with other services that operate along the line.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I assume that by saying that "it (HEx) will go beyond Paddington", you mean that it will use the Crossrail tunnels. I can't see that at all. The tunnels will be occupied carrying a full service and certainly won't have space for other services, except when nobody would want them, e.g. in the small hours.
Just imagine the confusion for passengers with travelcards catching the first train that arrives at TCR. Unless that becomes part of a deliberate fares trap!
I think that if HEx does survive, it will be in its present form, i.e. a non-stop premium-priced service to Paddington. The only change that i could forsee would be when HS2w opens, it could have a stop at OOC which in terms of business travel, could be worthwhile.

Yes, sorry, I meant through Cross rail tunnels. But since you mention it I am not saying there will still be a Heathrow Express brand. Just eventually some Crossrail services that go to Heathrow. But as you and others have said perhaps no paths for them especially if they are still fairly express.

I would consider using a slow/semi fast Crossrail train for a connection at Farringdon to Thameslink services to Croydon but only if it was the same fare as via the Piccadily line. But the X26 bus has my money.

I could draw a parallel with the Gatwick Express brand which is getting less and less distinct.

Incidentally on the subject of reliability. If you are let down by your chosen mode of transport to the airport and miss your flight your holiday insurance should help (I was once told). BUT only if the transport was pre-booked (I was told this when discussing taxi vs friend via the M25). So on that criteria my X26 bus is a bit risky . Instead better to buy an advance ticket for Heathrow express, a one day travel card in advance or pre book a taxi !. But at least with my beloved X26 it cannot get stuck in a tunnel/between-stations and I have a reasonable chance of bailing out if the road is blocked etc etc !.

In the case of transport to other airports in other countries I don't give a hoot. I am not going to loose sleep over missing my flight back to the UK and work .

 

[AM9]

.... Incidentally on the subject of reliability. If you are let down by your chosen mode of transport to the airport and miss your flight your holiday insurance should help (I was once told). BUT only if the transport was pre-booked (I was told this when discussing taxi vs friend via the M25). So on that criteria my X26 bus is a bit risky . Instead better to buy an advance ticket for Heathrow express, a one day travel card in advance or pre book a taxi !. But at least with my beloved X26 it cannot get stuck in a tunnel/between-stations and I have a reasonable chance of bailing out if the road is blocked etc etc !....

My understanding has always been that insurance claims arising from delays in getting to the airport depend on booked private hire/taxi journeys or scheduled public transport being used. More recently, some of the 'better' (read, not 'cut to the bone') policies, now include breakdowns and delays of private car journeys providing that there is evidence from breakdown service calls or garage receipts.

 

[edwin_m]

HEX/Connect is used for free (ticketless) landside transfers between Heathrow terminals. This would make it difficult to install barriers. Tube journeys between terminals are free when an Oyster card is used, however not all customers will have a card.

You could still install barriers to the HEx platforms at Paddington as everyone using them will be liable for the HEx fare. HEx currently has dedicated platforms there, and presumably will continue to do so, but if they are used for diverted Crossrail services then the barriers would be opened or re-configured to accept normal tickets.

This may change if HEx extends to Reading via the Western Link, but if that happens a premium fare is probably not workable as people will buy a longer-distance but cheaper fare and join/alight short. Journeys such as Slough-Paddington would have to be not valid via Heathrow to get round this sort of problem.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

HEX/Connect is used for free (ticketless) landside transfers between Heathrow terminals. This would make it difficult to install barriers. Tube journeys between terminals are free when an Oyster card is used, however not all customers will have a card.

Just put very clearly signed machines near the barriers that will distribute free terminal transfer tickets, which would be accepted by the barriers at stations within Heathrow, but nowhere else.

Problem solved

(OK, you'd need some staff on-hand to help out any confused travellers too).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

One of the criticisms of GatEx is the largely empty trains speeding past crowded platforms at Clapham Junction and East Croydon due to the premium tickets, this has been lessened a little due to extending to Brighton, etc.
With HeX the issue will be whether, when Crossrail starts, there ends up being 4 trains an hour carrying fresh air between Paddington and the Airport. If so, there'll be pressure to either cut fares or cut services to free up paths for more useful services. Running HeX into the Crossrail tunnels I can't see happening, it'd be very difficult to separate HEx passengers at the stations in the core. The 332s would also need replacing with a variant of the 345s as I doubt the doors would line up with the platform edge doors at Crossrail stations.

 

[tbtc]

There's obviously a huge demand to get between Heathrow and central London - a significant enough market to allow different types of service to be viable (the slow Underground, the faster Connect/Crossrail, the upmarket Express).

There's an argument for retaining Hex and an argument for replacing it (with even more Crossrail services), but I think that if you keep it then you need to retain the fifteen minute frequency - anything less just isn't going to be attractive enough - the kind of people who pay a premium for a plush 332 to save precious minutes to get to the Airport aren't going to wait around for a half hourly service - Hex needs to be four trains an hour or nothing.

Generally speaking, I'm not a huge fan of some Airport services, where these see capacity on busier "normal" routes constrained to satisfy quieter "airport" services (which will happen at Paddington - where the number of five/ten coach IEP services could be restricted by the need to accommodate some 332s with 1+1 seating).

Prestwick, Southampton, Luton and Birmingham seem good examples, where the Airport is just another station on the line - rather than needing something special for air passengers (where one "air" passenger seems to be more of a priority than several "other" passengers).

I also don't see the point in "via Heathrow" services. Docklands/ Stratford/ City/ Paddington/ OOC to Heathrow makes sense. Heathrow to Slough/ Reading (and beyond) makes sense. But the time penalty for running via Heathrow (and the mismatch between toiletless "metro" style 345s/ 1+1 seated 333s and the "more common or garden" units required for services between Heathrow and Slough/ Reading etc makes me wonder why you'd want to run services through Heathrow.

It makes sense to extend Gatwick "Express" services to the south coast, as that Airport is on the main line - so there's no time penalty. But you wouldn't want to divert Liverpool Street - Cambridge services via Stansted because the time penalty would be too much. Same goes for "via Heathrow" to me.

Just my opinion, but I'd rather that the (needed) services from Heathrow to Slough/ Reading/ beyond were independent of those from Heathrow to the big city.

All of which assumes Heathrow's cooperation on their track from Hayes and Harlington to Heathrow....

This is something often forgotten from the "my idea for..." threads!

It's an assumption that at some point the business case will stack up to run all 24tph from the peak core service westwards.

With 6tph West Drayton, 8tph WCML that leaves 10tph which could run to Heathrow. It may not be posssible to fit that all in so it could be 8tph for Heathrow (plus 4tph WRATH) and 8tph for West Drayton instead.

An 8/8/8 service might well be easier to timetable.

Do you honestly see 8th for the WCML in the medium/long term (rather than just covering the Tring services whilst Euston is remodelled for HS2 work)?

I think what will happen with HEX is that the national rail platforms will be placed in zone 6-9(probably zone 6 for consistency with LUL) as a planning consent condition of further expansion of the airport. This will be presented as a way of helping local residents and improving public transport access to Heathrow

Heathrow airport holdings will protest at this condition however. Will secretly be glad as it allows them to dispose of a liability while saving face

I suppose that relinquishing control over Hex could be a pawn to sacrifice in the bigger battle over another runway/ terminal at Heathrow - a small price to pay to avoid their airport losing out to Gatwick?

That's helpful. Looking at Heathrow's submission to the Airports Commission, it's long term strategy is
HeX 4tph, calling at Old Oak Common, Slough, Maidenhead, Twyford and Reading. At least 2tph continue to Oxford

2tph from Heathrow to Oxford via Reading?

On top of the...

• 2tph fast from Paddington to Oxford (fasts - some extending to Hereford etc)
• 2tph slow from Paddington to Oxford (the 166 services)
• 2tph XC services from Reading to Birmingham (variously serving Bournemouth/ Southampton/ Manchester/ Newcastle etc)
• Various freight paths
• (plus whatever Reading services run onto EW for Milton Keynes/ Bedford etc)?

 

[FQTV]

Heathrow Airport is currently undertaking some market research into how and why current Heathrow Express passengers choose the service over the existing alternatives, and how Crossrail may change that.

Customers are being approached on board to respond to an online questionnaire which goes into quite some detail, and tests reaction to various potential competitive scenarios principally including Crossrail, Connect, Underground and then non-rail options such as private and rental car, minicab and black cab.

For the rail options, the relative importance of (from memory) fare, frequency, speed, changes, luggage space provision, ambient comfort, connectivity, seat availability at start, middle and end of journey are tested.

Respondents are asked to relate all this to the specific journey that they were undertaking when approached for the survey, and how various future competitive scenarios might have affected their choice had those scenarios been available on the date that this journey was made.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Replacing the Heathrow Express paths with standard GWR services that would then run through to Reading and beyond seems to me to be the only realistic option using the infrastructure which is already confirmed. Theoretically, 'Heathrow Express' could be extended to Reading while retaining the premium fare between Heathrow and the Airport, but the convenience of not having to change trains to get to the City should mean that it's just not worthwhile to charge extra for the faster service which then terminates so far west of the central business areas of London. Extending the non-stop service west using WRAtH is an option but then there's still the problem of how the Heathrow loop and stop would probably add enough minutes to the journey time for it to be faster to take the next service from Paddington, so the path on the GWML Main lines east of Airport Junction would only be used by people around the far west end of London going to Heathrow.

I think a more interesting and useful option would be to combine the Heathrow Express paths with a version of the Airtrack scheme since it would create new links rather than trying to compete (badly) with pre-existing ones. Not only would it provide a direct link to Heathrow from SWT-land but it would also provide it with a direct link to Crossrail 1 and to Old Oak Common and all the onward journey possibilities that will be possible there. I am aware of Network Rail's ideas of GWML services to Southampton via Reading which would provide a link to OOC from that far out but that wouldn't do much for anywhere closer to London.

 

[miami]

For the rail options, the relative importance of (from memory) fare, frequency, speed, changes, luggage space provision, ambient comfort, connectivity, seat availability at start, middle and end of journey are tested.

Interesting that you didn't mention reliability. When I catch a plane from t5 I have to be at security 35m10s before take off. That means I need a reliable timetabled service, not to be waiting at Hatton Cross for 20 minutes.

Hex is the only one that gives that reliability to t5 - connect stops short and the underground isn't timetabled (publicly)

 

[Taunton]

Hex is the only one that gives that reliability to t5 - connect stops short and the underground isn't timetabled (publicly)

However, what the Underground does give is frequency, if you turn up for the Express and just miss it, that's a long wait for the next one. In the meantime there will have been several Underground departures.

I doubt many turn up for a known Express departure, or are even aware of the timetable. And at the first sign of problems, the Express is cut down to a half-hour frequency, the first you may know of this is coming on the platform, after passing the ticket machines and paying for it.

 

[lincolnshire]

However, what the Underground does give is frequency, if you turn up for the Express and just miss it, that's a long wait for the next one. In the meantime there will have been several Underground departures.
Thats what I think when I have travelled from Heathrow to Kings Cross, its all via one train and since I am getting on an empty or vitally empty train me and my luggage can find a suitable seat and can travel right through to Kings Cross. If I was Heathrow Expressing it, it like you say my luck would be just missed one and have to wait, then at Paddinton get off and transfer to underground and buy another ticket for that and then get me and luggage onto underground train to Kings Cross. Wonder what the actual difference is in time altogether without looking at the cost.

I doubt many turn up for a known Express departure, or are even aware of the timetable. And at the first sign of problems, the Express is cut down to a half-hour frequency, the first you may know of this is coming on the platform, after passing the ticket machines and paying for it.

Yes like the bit about problems meaning a dropping back to a half hour service and not letting you know till you get on the platform, its just like the ticket sellers within the secure area a con trick.

It would be interesting if they let the Underground sell Tickets/ Oyster cards etc alongside the Heathrow Express ? wonder who would sell the most?

 

[berneyarms]

However, what the Underground does give is frequency, if you turn up for the Express and just miss it, that's a long wait for the next one. In the meantime there will have been several Underground departures.

I doubt many turn up for a known Express departure, or are even aware of the timetable. And at the first sign of problems, the Express is cut down to a half-hour frequency, the first you may know of this is coming on the platform, after passing the ticket machines and paying for it.

Actually I would entirely disagree with your view on the latter, when going to Heathrow.

I know that trains leave Paddington at xx:10, xx:25, xx:40 and xx:55 and that gives me some certainty as to when I'll get to the airport, while leaving myself some wriggle room too. I think most regular travellers will be aware of those times. I find it much easier to plan around those known times instead of uncertainty on the Tube.

Several bad experiences on the Piccadilly line going to Heathrow with long waits en route, leading to me nearly missing flights, led me to switch to either the HEx or Connect if travelling from central London to Heathrow.

You can have as much frequency as you like on the Piccadilly line, but that's not worth anything when trains aren't moving.

 

[FQTV]

Interesting that you didn't mention reliability.

Only because my memory isn't prone to it either . It was indeed one of the considerations, although in some scenarios it was 'bundled' with frequency.

It will be interesting, I suppose, to see whether Crossrail ultimately becomes perceived as an Underground-esque continuous turn up and go service, or a HEx-esque timetabled one.

Personally, the one thing that does (currently) shunt me towards HEx more often than not is the number of unplanned, unpredictable, multiple, stuttering and sometimes inescapable delays on the Piccadilly.

By contrast, in 15-odd years, and despite knowing that things do go wrong, I have never sat on the GWML for more than about 3 minutes in total on any given journey.

There's a fair, I think, comment that one of the burdens that the Piccadilly to Heathrow has to bear is that it can be easy to judge it on the basis of overall Tube reliability. HEx, by contrast, arguably manages to distance itself quite successfully from the challenges of the generality of National Rail services.

 

[miami]

I rarely take the hex from Heathrow, and would Never dignify the fraudsters post customs with buying a ticket from them.

But on the way there for an 18:25 from t5 means getting the 17:25 from Paddington, so I go for the 17:10 just in case, allowing a 1705 arrival so a 1650 arrival at Oxford Circus will get me on the flight.

If the tube or hex is screwed then there's a bit of padding.

When everything goes right with the piccadilly then it takes an hour, but it can easily take 1h40 between overcrowded trains and that terrible Hatton Cross situation with only t4 trains showing.

 

[Chris M]

I don't need to go to Heathrow often, but from here (Isle of Dogs) the tube is far more convenient than first getting to Paddington and not significantly slower. The most frequent traveller to Heathrow I know lives at the east end of the Central line and always takes the step-free route changing at Mile End and Hammersmith to get there, even though it isn't the quickest.

 

[Rational Plan]

I think it's best to see a through Heathrow service as a way of conveniently joining two separate services without having to turn trains around and occupy precious platform space.

A through service to Paddington to Basingstoke would provide connectivity between that part of London and the M4 towns to the South Western network, with only one change in train rather than two. The saving of interchange time at Reading could make up the difference of a diversion via Heathrow and so still serve a purpose.

Also if it is true that freight to Southampton might be diverted via Salisbury rather than Eastleigh, then that would free up at least one path an hour maybe two. A direct Heathrow service to Southampton would attract significant custom, even from those not going to Heathrow itself.

Though I must declare a personal interest in a direct train from Slough to Southampton. It would save me so much time on trips to see family on the Isle of Wight. Currently that Cross country from Manchester gets in too late to make the ferry connection and so adds 50 minutes to your journey.

 

[The Planner]

It's an assumption that at some point the business case will stack up to run all 24tph from the peak core service westwards.

With 6tph West Drayton, 8tph WCML that leaves 10tph which could run to Heathrow. It may not be posssible to fit that all in so it could be 8tph for Heathrow (plus 4tph WRATH) and 8tph for West Drayton instead.

An 8/8/8 service might well be easier to timetable.

8 to the WCML? It was never more than 6 in the initial work. Chances of it happening at all seem slim to me anyway. It isn't a enabler to sort phase 1 construction so its unlikely to see the light of day before 2026-2030 IMO.

 

[swt_passenger]

8 to the WCML? It was never more than 6 in the initial work. Chances of it happening at all seem slim to me anyway. It isn't a enabler to sort phase 1 construction so its unlikely to see the light of day before 2026-2030 IMO.

Whenever the 'initial work' was, by the time of the London and SE RUS (in 2011) it clearly suggests 8 tph to the WCML. It is repeated in a number of paragraphs, so unlikely to have been a typo.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think it's best to see a through Heathrow service as a way of conveniently joining two separate services without having to turn trains around and occupy precious platform space.

Agree, nothing really seems to be suggesting these four services are replacing anything that already runs west of Heathrow, but they are extras, such as extensions of EWR that would have terminated at Reading, or as you say a new service from Southampton via Basingstoke.

Services that they run through Heathrow could always show Heathrow as the destination on leaving anywhere west of Reading to avoid taking on passengers for Paddington.

I don't think anyone is going to be forced to route via Heathrow if they don't actually need to.

 

[jon0844]

(OK, you'd need some staff on-hand to help out any confused travellers too).

Unless they all leave, there's usually plenty of staff on hand to help passengers. This is one of the reasons many people will use HEX.