Future of SWR's class 158/159 fleet

[Duncan-231192]

As a northerner, I would be happy to see SWR 158/159's cascaded up north. For my home city of Hull, we could do with the 155's and 150's replaced, and I dare say that the Newcastle, Middlesborough, and Whitby area would love to see the back of the 156's.

If it were up to me, I would be ordering 25,000V/Diesel Bi-mode 100mph intercity layout AT-200's to replace HST's and the remaining Class 158's and Class 170's on Scotland's Intercity routes, and tagging on an order for SWR with 750V capability. Hitachi are more than capable, and the diesel engines can be replaced with Hydrogen or Batteries as electrification progresses. There's no need for speeds of more that 100mph on either the SWR or Scotrail routes they would operate on.

 

[hooverboy]

As a northerner, I would be happy to see SWR 158/159's cascaded up north. For my home city of Hull, we could do with the 155's and 150's replaced, and I dare say that the Newcastle, Middlesborough, and Whitby area would love to see the back of the 156's.

If it were up to me, I would be ordering 25,000V/Diesel Bi-mode 100mph intercity layout AT-200's to replace HST's and the remaining Class 158's and Class 170's on Scotland's Intercity routes, and tagging on an order for SWR with 750V capability. Hitachi are more than capable, and the diesel engines can be replaced with Hydrogen or Batteries as electrification progresses. There's no need for speeds of more that 100mph on either the SWR or Scotrail routes they would operate on.

I'd certainly agree with some diesel/750v bimodes for SWR.Also needed on southern to replace the uckfield/oxted stock.
There's not much point in doing micro-fleets,so an MU that can cover all those bases would be preferable.

Stadler would seem like the obvious choice,but they need to put those power packs on a diet,they're a bit wide.

 

[Rono]

I've read in the most recent edition of RAIL that replacement of the 158/159 fleet isn't mentioned in the SWR business plan, even though these trains are 30 years old.

Realistically, what is the future for them? Another refurbishment? I suspect a like-for-like replacement (with new DMUs) won't be authorised as I suspect new trains will be contingent on the electrification of the West of England line as least as far as Salisbury.

The 159s are getting very tatty in standard class and the air conditioning isn't up to scratch.

I heard that now Southampton Intermodal freight yards are the second largest in the UK, that consideration is being made to electrify from there, Via the Salisbury line and Andover, Basingstoke, Reading and Oxford to the Midlands with AC overhead electric. That may stop any 3rd rail extention to Salisbury as it's fairly dangerous to run both systems on one line together! That leaves battery trains or newer DMU's with the latest emmissions gear on them. Biofuels are expensive.

 

[Irascible]

newer DMU's with the latest emmissions gear on them

At the moment that's surely a no-chance guv. I can see a vague interior refresh & perhaps some of the most egregious mechanical faults being fixed. If they went anywhere after being replaced then surely they'd end up still in the south-west...

 

[jackot]

At the moment that's surely a no-chance guv. I can see a vague interior refresh & perhaps some of the most egregious mechanical faults being fixed. If they went anywhere after being replaced then surely they'd end up still in the south-west...

Yes. They were planned a more comprehensive refresh with new First Class pre-Covid, so maybe that could be picked up again to keep them ticking over until replacement becomes more viable. Even if plans to electrify the WofE Line were announced today, it would take years and years to come to fruition, so a good refurbishment might be a solution - the units have got another decade of service pretty much guaranteed at SWR, and could live longer than that if cascaded elsewhere as you said. I think they are still great trains for their age.

or newer DMU's with the latest emmissions gear on them.

IIRC SWR installed an Eminox catalyst system of some sort on a 159 a few years back, which likely brings their emissions down on-par with a new DMU, so that could well be retrofitted to the whole fleet if there was desire to reduce emissions in the interim without new trains.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'd certainly agree with some diesel/750v bimodes for SWR.Also needed on southern to replace the uckfield/oxted stock.
There's not much point in doing micro-fleets,so an MU that can cover all those bases would be preferable.

Stadler would seem like the obvious choice,but they need to put those power packs on a diet,they're a bit wide.

With regard to "micro-fleets", there is an argument that a single type for the West of England line and the Southern diesel islands would end up being too much of a compromise and wouldn't necessarily be ideal for either case. Exeter or Yeovil to London is quite different to the Marshlink, and commonality between those two fleets wouldn't really allow much in the way of maintenance savings.

 

[tomuk]

Yes. They were planned a more comprehensive refresh with new First Class pre-Covid, so maybe that could be picked up again to keep them ticking over until replacement becomes more viable. Even if plans to electrify the WofE Line were announced today, it would take years and years to come to fruition, so a good refurbishment might be a solution - the units have got another decade of service pretty much guaranteed at SWR, and could live longer than that if cascaded elsewhere as you said. I think they are still great trains for their age.


IIRC SWR installed an Eminox catalyst system of some sort on a 159 a few years back, which likely brings their emissions down on-par with a new DMU, so that could well be retrofitted to the whole fleet if there was desire to reduce emissions in the interim without new trains.

Yes Eminox do a very good retrofit kit it was also trailed on a 170 which are already a generation better than 158/159s but it still gave very good results.

 

[Xavi]

From the SWR: Journey to a Net Zero future

We will work closely with Network Rail as they seek to deliver the electrification of the rail network in the West of England. Any decision will have a direct effect on
the traction model we use to replace our diesel fleet.

Which essentially means no fleet replacement or electrification until HM Treasury says so.

 

[dgl]

At least the 159's are decent trains, there's a lot worse that could be made to last on the West of England route, requiring 90MPH stock with an "intercity" layout probably helps quite a bit.

 

[Snow1964]

From the SWR: Journey to a Net Zero future

We will work closely with Network Rail as they seek to deliver the electrification of the rail network in the West of England. Any decision will have a direct effect on
the traction model we use to replace our diesel fleet.

Which essentially means no fleet replacement or electrification until HM Treasury says so.

They ought to last a few more years, and realistically should probably be part of a large batch of trains, dual voltage bi-mode inter-regional units with seating suitable for 3+ hour journeys, and doors spaced for some closely spaced stations with churn.

I would then deploy the standard design as follows :
Cardiff - Portsmouth (helping general South West shortages)
Cardiff -Plymouth (releasing IETs that took over from castle HSTs)
Cardiff - Nottingham (XC services releasing 170s to replace 156s)
Waterloo - Exeter (releasing 159s)

And I would ensure the train uses existing tested component, built as one big run (even if ordered in stages, drawing down options), and definitely not with some iffy new software.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

and definitely not with some iffy new software.

If you don’t use the latest software you are starting the fleet off in life already with obsolescence issues which will only compound during their life cycle.

 

[Trainbike46]

If you don’t use the latest software you are starting the fleet off in life already with obsolescence issues which will only compound during their life cycle.

and most manufacturers have been able to get software to work as required within a reasonable timeframe. There is just one exception to that rule, though it may improve for future orders since the Alstom takeover

 

[Irascible]

At least the 159's are decent trains, there's a lot worse that could be made to last on the West of England route, requiring 90MPH stock with an "intercity" layout probably helps quite a bit.

Haven't been on the line in a while but when they were being properly looked after they were my favourite means of transport in the area. Lapses in maintenance on 30 year old heavily used vehicles ends up horribly expensive at some point though.

I wonder if there's a source of compatible reconditioned engines with a little more grunt - there's no point fitting new ones, but some older ones of 400-450bhp would help with the aircon issues & have some headroom for emissions kit.

"as they seek to deliver the electrification of the rail network in the West of England."

Lol, nice one. Presumably includes 3rd rail between Okehampton & Tavistock... the chances of me being alive to see a fully electric train here have to be ... small.

"West of England" is a bit of an undefined area - if you go on the TV regions ( which seem as useful as anything for social divisions ) that doesn't actually cover half of Dorset & westwards. Down here we definitely call the area the south-west ( but we'd probably not even include east Somerset let alone Gloucester who keep trying to join ). Could just be to Salisbury. If that ever happened I'd imagine we'd have Exeter-Salisbury via a rotating fleet of 159s & get kicked off to change to something new there.

 

[158 fan]

Why are so many here suggesting end gangways are still important? They were only needed back when SWT ran a trolley service on all WoE routes and since trolleys were axed long ago, hence why they got rid of 170s, added to lack of capacity on the 2 car ones. Gangways wouldn't be needed at all these days.

Gangways are useful for the line because a few stations are quite short and its much easier to move up and down the train with a gangway.

 

[Purple Train]

Gangways are useful for the line because a few stations are quite short and its much easier to move up and down the train with a gangway.

Indeed, I believe some platforms are three coaches long, on a route that usually utilises six-coach trains. Some form of gangway should therefore be a must.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Indeed, I believe some platforms are three coaches long, on a route that usually utilises six-coach trains. Some form of gangway should therefore be a must.

As far as I’m aware there are no stations west of Salisbury which are just 3 coaches long, all are 3 coaches and a bit. The current 15x fleet is binary as it doesn’t have selective door opening like desiros but selective unit opening. A new fleet would be expected to have selective door opening so provided at least the first door of the second set is platformed there’s no requirement for gangways solely based on platform length (there’s of course many other reasons why you would want gangways).

It should also be noted there are several stations served by GWR with 10 car 80x (2 x 5 car) with no gangways where the platform cannot accommodate any of the vehicles of the second set. This only happens on guarded routes (like the SWR Exeter line is) and one of the roles of the guard is to ensure passengers are in the right part of the train.

An example of multiple 3 car sets working beyond Salisbury without gangways is sometimes DEMUs would step in and these weren’t even walk through within individual coaches.

 

[158 fan]

It should also be noted there are several stations served by GWR with 10 car 80x (2 x 5 car) with no gangways where the platform cannot accommodate any of the vehicles of the second set. This only happens on guarded routes (like the SWR Exeter line is) and one of the roles of the guard is to ensure passengers are in the right part of the train.

but, if someone got lost or didn't understand the guard or something then they are kind of stuck, so not the best thing to do.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

but, if someone got lost or didn't understand the guard or something then they are kind of stuck, so not the best thing to do.

Agreed it’s not the utopia situation but it’s not a show stopper everyone makes out it to be.

 

[bramling]

but, if someone got lost or didn't understand the guard or something then they are kind of stuck, so not the best thing to do.

One of life’s lessons then, they’ll be wiser next time.

I agree it isn’t ideal, but it’s not the end of the world either.

 

[Snow1964]

I heard that now Southampton Intermodal freight yards are the second largest in the UK, that consideration is being made to electrify from there, Via the Salisbury line and Andover, Basingstoke, Reading and Oxford to the Midlands with AC overhead electric. That may stop any 3rd rail extention to Salisbury as it's fairly dangerous to run both systems on one line together! That leaves battery trains or newer DMU's with the latest emmissions gear on them. Biofuels are expensive.

Lots of bridges were rebuilt with much greater clearance between Salisbury and Southampton, I think these are all now W12 plus space for overhead. Of course the direct bits from Kimbridge Junction (north of Romsey) via Fullerton to Andover and the main line standard Fullerton-Hurstbourne line are lifted (The stations are almost identical to the Brockenhurst-Christchurch main line, built at same time).

But if line does eventually get electrification on Basingstoke-Salisbury section then dual voltage EMUs are inevitable. Could easily get battery EMUs to Yeovil and back, but right through to Exeter is beyond battery range (anything over about 55 miles before a decent stretch of electric route to recharge isn't realistic).

The logical thing would be to make clones of proposed regional GWR battery EMU (which hopefully is 5 or 6car version suitable for 3+ hour journeys), especially both will run through Salisbury.

However my gut feeling is both companies know a battery EMU is not currently an option for Devon routes, it's too far off the juice. So I think this will be put back in the look at it in 5-8 years time box, and the 159s will still be running in 2030

 

[zwk500]

but, if someone got lost or didn't understand the guard or something then they are kind of stuck, so not the best thing to do.

No different to if somebody didn't understand the platform boards and got on the wrong train.

 

[pigs bay]

With the 158's/159's now 30 y/o, why don't the DfT/SWR just get on and 3rd rail, electrify from Worting jcn to Salisbury and the infill part to Redbridge-Southampton, and the piece from Romsey to Eastleigh, then they could run Bi-mode trains to/from Exeter on either diesel or battery power, from Salisbury with a charging stretch of rail at Yeovil then electric from Salisbury. Considering the class 769's that GWR had were tri-modes, I'm surprised they were not offered to SWR for the WoE line after being brought up to inter-city standards

 

[Snow1964]

With the 158's/159's now 30 y/o, why don't the DfT/SWR just get on and 3rd rail, electrify from Worting jcn to Salisbury and the infill part to Redbridge-Southampton, and the piece from Romsey to Eastleigh, then they could run Bi-mode trains to/from Exeter on either diesel or battery power, from Salisbury with a charging stretch of rail at Yeovil then electric from Salisbury. Considering the class 769's that GWR had were tri-modes, I'm surprised they were not offered to SWR for the WoE line after being brought up to inter-city standards

If today's announcement of various electrification schemes eg Manchester (Hope Valley) - Sheffield - Leeds, to Hull, North Wales, to Bristol etc then in theory will be newer bimodes becoming surplus

I know not really suitable, and timescale is big unknown, but can't rule out some sort of cascade, although that is probably for different speculative thread

 

[swt_passenger]

With the 158's/159's now 30 y/o, why don't the DfT/SWR just get on and 3rd rail, electrify from Worting jcn to Salisbury and the infill part to Redbridge-Southampton, and the piece from Romsey to Eastleigh, then they could run Bi-mode trains to/from Exeter on either diesel or battery power, from Salisbury with a charging stretch of rail at Yeovil then electric from Salisbury. Considering the class 769's that GWR had were tri-modes, I'm surprised they were not offered to SWR for the WoE line after being brought up to inter-city standards

They won‘t be extending third rail anywhere near Salisbury. You must have missed all the previous explanations, but it’s generally understood that is too far to be considered “infill”. The original NR electrification strategy in an RUS expected Basingstoke to Exeter would be AC overhead.

 

[Anonymous10]

If today's announcement of various electrification schemes eg Manchester (Hope Valley) - Sheffield - Leeds, to Hull, North Wales, to Bristol etc then in theory will be newer bimodes becoming surplus

I know not really suitable, and timescale is big unknown, but can't rule out some sort of cascade, although that is probably for different speculative thread

Where can this be found?

 

[Meerkat]

Where can this be found?

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/651d64646a6955000d78b2e0/network-north-transforming-british-transport.pdf

Network North pdf.

 

[Towers]

The old “third rail dangerous” nonsense really does stifle progress here, very unfortunate. As for 769s being brought up to intercity standards, that’s a task and a half!

 

[pigs bay]

They won‘t be extending third rail anywhere near Salisbury. You must have missed all the previous explanations, but it’s generally understood that is too far to be considered “infill”. The original NR electrification strategy in an RUS expected Basingstoke to Exeter would be AC overhead.

That would be good too, seeing that the class 379's are available, surely they could be done to work on both overhead and third rail giving the WofE line a train that WOULD be up to todays standard.

 

[Irascible]

Well, if you can reconfigure the vestibules to use some of the generally wasted space for something useful given it's a long distance route ( there was a discussion about this elsewhere recently ). But by the time anything would actually get done - like say, a decade's time - those things will either be in someone else's hands or out of existence. Also - how are you going to handle train splitting when Waterloo can just about fit 10-car 158/9 combos?

 

[pigs bay]

I find it amazing that when NSE were looking at the renewal of stock for the WoE line, it was considering electrifying the route then to just Salisbury or the whole way to Exeter, with 3rd rail to Salisbury then overhead to Exeter, but the history goes that the regional 158's became available, so they took them. But I believe it was a very close call and it was nearly electrified then. I know this is slightly of topic but if SWR can scrap the 442's because of their age, well how can a class that is now 30y/o, and diesel powered be expected to go on even longer. Salisbury depot are struggling with availability now, so how will they cope in three to five years time or even longer.