Future of the Class 60 locos at Toton?

[BR60062]

You say that but if the railways hadn't been privatized, you couldn't say that the 60s would survive for ever.

Why are you assuming (and incorrectly I might add) that privatisation is anything to do with the Class 60's lasting forever? Before the loss of BR, Britain was building its own trains and had more people on the railway in employment! So prove me wrong if you think that I am lying. Because its the truth and if it wasn't for the 66 ying ying ying invasion. We would have British built locomotives even now such as the proposed Class 62 and the Class 65 locomotives that BR was developing on the mainline.

They might have looked similar in design like the Class 92 and Class 60 etc as that was the design that Brush Traction was using back then. But the guts and the technology of the locomotives would be superior and designed for other purposes as 100 Class 60's back in the 1990's was more than enough for the heavy haul work like steel, coal and oil etc. New locomotives at the time were being sought after to eventually replace the ageing Class 47's, Class 37's etc on the intermodal and the lighter freight trains as they were getting on a bit due to age. But Brush Traction didn't offer any more new locomotive products to the market post-privatisation because the foreign firms like Wiscousin Central etc wanted a foreign built cheap to run to maximise profits like the Class 66 and this paved the way for the Class 66 swarm into the UK not that I am saying its a bad thing mind from a FTOC's POV .

Also I dare say this with confidence that Brush Traction and BREL would still be building locomotives in Britain today had BR not been privatised and there is nothing wrong with having British designed and built locomotives as we did after all create the railway and I am proud of our history in terms of inventions and technology that we have given to the world .

 

[Harbornite]

Before the loss of BR, Britain was building its own trains and had more people on the railway in employment! So prove me wrong if you think that I am lying. Because its the truth and if it wasn't for the 66 ying ying ying invasion. We would have British built locomotives even now such as the proposed Class 62 and the Class 65 locomotives that BR was developing on the mainline.

No one is accusing you of lying, I'm just being realistic. Trains, wagons and even locomotives are still assembled in the UK, the difference is that most of the companies are owned by foreigners. It is a shame that the likes of Hunslet TPL, Met Cammel and the Adtranz plant in York have closed. My point regarding nationalization was that it would not guarantee the long term survival of the class, BR would have replaced them eventually, possibly with American motive power. Why did you bring privatization into it anyway? Don't think that BR didn't care about profits and whatnot, if they didn't then Speedlink wouldn't have been axed.

But Brush Traction didn't offer any more new locomotive products to the market post-privatisation

Wrong. What about the Eurotunnel Tri- bos?

because the foreign firms like Wiscousin Central etc wanted a foreign built cheap to run to maximise profits

As you have inferred, the railways aren't run for trainspotters. Do you know what economies of scale are?

 

[richieb1971]

More to the point is that class 60's were not built to rot on that single track. Considering the lifespan of some classes the class 60 had a short life span when you consider that only 10 years after the first of the class hit the rails that many of the class were retired.

Privatization does play a big part of their bad luck in my humble opinion. EWS have publicly stated a snobberish attitude towards using British tractive power and that set the course these 60's are on. Its not economic because those 250 66's cost a lot more than fixing up 10 year old 60's.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Don't forget there were two things going on here at once. The 250 class 66 locos appeared to replace the older BR classes and then there was the general decline in freight in this country.

If BR had survived I doubt whether there would have been much investment, if any, in new freight motive power in the mid to late 90s/early 00s. Maybe some more cl.60 but they would have been told to get on with what they had got, the 56/58/60 being fairly new at the time.

It can be argued that EWS ordered far too many cl.66 but having done so, it made far more sense to make use of them (they are fairly cheap to run) and junk the newer BR stuff, where they could.

It's sad to see relatively new kit sitting idle for a good proportion of their lives but the traffic they were built to haul has largely gone, probably never to return.

 

[richieb1971]

I notice that oil tanker trains (aviation fuel etc) are hauled by 60's. But cement trains which are equally as long seem to have 66's.

And recently i've seen a lot of the fuel tank trains hauled by 66's as well.

So i'm not really following the logic of why the 60's are needed in the first place, in any shape or form.

 

[Ash Bridge]

I notice that oil tanker trains (aviation fuel etc) are hauled by 60's. But cement trains which are equally as long seem to have 66's.

And recently i've seen a lot of the fuel tank trains hauled by 66's as well.

So i'm not really following the logic of why the 60's are needed in the first place, in any shape or form.

But surely those tank trains that load up to 30 vehicles are in the hands of class 60s? The only way 66s would be in charge is if the tanks had been discharged or if paired up due to a non available 60 I would have thought.

 

[richieb1971]

But surely those tank trains that load up to 30 vehicles are in the hands of class 60s? The only way 66s would be in charge is if the tanks had been discharged or if paired up due to a non available 60 I would have thought.

I might be wrong but its my understanding that whatever loco takes the train is the one that brings it back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RtYYFICzek (40 seconds in).

 

[ac6000cw]

I notice that oil tanker trains (aviation fuel etc) are hauled by 60's. But cement trains which are equally as long seem to have 66's.

And recently i've seen a lot of the fuel tank trains hauled by 66's as well.

So i'm not really following the logic of why the 60's are needed in the first place, in any shape or form.

It's not just the weight of the trains that is important, for freight the nature of the route is also a major factor - if it's pretty flat, provided you can get the train started, low-speed tractive effort is not so important i.e a 66 is fine. If you have significant gradients, you either need a loco with good low-speed tractive effort and wheelslip contro e.g. a 60l, or have to bank the train up the hills (which is costly).

 

[Harbornite]

I notice that oil tanker trains (aviation fuel etc) are hauled by 60's. But cement trains which are equally as long seem to have 66's.

And recently i've seen a lot of the fuel tank trains hauled by 66's as well.

So i'm not really following the logic of why the 60's are needed in the first place, in any shape or form.

At the time, the most capable freight locos in Britain were class 59s, but BR didn't order any of these for political reasons.

 

[Ash Bridge]

At the time, the most capable freight locos in Britain were class 59s, but BR didn't order any of these for political reasons.

Don't forget those trials a few years ago using a 59 that DBS conducted on the coal trains out of Liverpool Docks, I think the intention of which was to replace the 60s on these workings with the GM machines, apparently the 59s frequently struggled under bad rail conditions and were considered not up to the job and so the class 60 remained supreme.

 

[CosherB]

Why are you assuming (and incorrectly I might add) that privatisation is anything to do with the Class 60's lasting forever? Before the loss of BR, Britain was building its own trains and had more people on the railway in employment! So prove me wrong if you think that I am lying. Because its the truth and if it wasn't for the 66 ying ying ying invasion. We would have British built locomotives even now such as the proposed Class 62 and the Class 65 locomotives that BR was developing on the mainline.

They might have looked similar in design like the Class 92 and Class 60 etc as that was the design that Brush Traction was using back then. But the guts and the technology of the locomotives would be superior and designed for other purposes as 100 Class 60's back in the 1990's was more than enough for the heavy haul work like steel, coal and oil etc. New locomotives at the time were being sought after to eventually replace the ageing Class 47's, Class 37's etc on the intermodal and the lighter freight trains as they were getting on a bit due to age. But Brush Traction didn't offer any more new locomotive products to the market post-privatisation because the foreign firms like Wiscousin Central etc wanted a foreign built cheap to run to maximise profits like the Class 66 and this paved the way for the Class 66 swarm into the UK not that I am saying its a bad thing mind from a FTOC's POV .

Also I dare say this with confidence that Brush Traction and BREL would still be building locomotives in Britain today had BR not been privatised and there is nothing wrong with having British designed and built locomotives as we did after all create the railway and I am proud of our history in terms of inventions and technology that we have given to the world .

Utterly clueless. Factual inaccurracies and a complete lack of understanding of real world economics. You should work for Jeremy Corbyn.

 

[Harbornite]

Don't forget those trials a few years ago using a 59 that DBS conducted on the coal trains out of Liverpool Docks, I think the intention of which was to replace the 60s on these workings with the GM machines, apparently the 59s frequently struggled under bad rail conditions and were considered not up to the job and so the class 60 remained supreme.

Good point there.

 

[richieb1971]

Sounds like quite a few examples of the 60 will be needed to be kept around for years then. If the traction control gives that much more assurances on heavy haul trains.

If these non workings go to the torch and then the heavy haulage freight picks up, the examples left will be gold dust.

 

[Harbornite]

.

If these non workings go to the torch and then the heavy haulage freight picks up, the examples left will be gold dust.

To a degree. If demand picked up massively, new heavy haul machines could be ordered.

 

[BR60062]

Utterly clueless. Factual inaccurracies and a complete lack of understanding of real world economics. You should work for Jeremy Corbyn.

Welcome to the ignore list mate. Mick taking and personal cheap shots won't get you anywhere with me pal! :roll:. You are not the first one to go on there and you probably won't be the last .

I am a positive and an open minded person which I think that is where we clearly differ. You have no right to make personal judgements against me as you do not even know me :roll:. Perhaps maybe you might be one of those that got blocked from my YouTube channel in the past as your wording and negative remarks do sound quite similar to someone that got blocked just recently. If you cannot stand me, that's fine and I have no problems with that. But this is a public forum, so let's keep our differences aside on here yeah? As I am immune to belittling and personal remarks .

Meanwhile back on topic. I think the really bad conditioned Class 60's are done for as it would be too expensive and uneconomical to practically have to rebuild them from scratch in regards to 60006, 60008 and 60081 at the very least. So those will be off to Booths I would assume on this occasion.

 

[CosherB]

I am a positive and an open minded person which I think that is where we clearly differ.

Actually, you're wrong. No one would be happier than me to see most of the Class 60s back in action, with whatever FOC that could run them, either in the UK or abroad. Where you and I differ is that I know that will now never happen. I'm a realist.

If you can't accept that people have a different opinion to you, even when posters spend time and effort to try to point out why something is likely to never happen, that's your problem, not mine.

 

[Harbornite]

Welcome to the ignore list mate. Mick taking and personal cheap shots won't get you anywhere with me pal! :roll:. You are not the first one to go on there and you probably won't be the last .

I am a positive and an open minded person which I think that is where we clearly differ. You have no right to make personal judgements against me as you do not even know me :roll:If you cannot stand me, that's fine and I have no problems with that. But this is a public forum, so let's keep our differences aside on here yeah? As I am immune to belittling and personal remarks .

I don't think Cosher intends to be rude, he is merely telling it how it is.

 

[richieb1971]

When you have optimists on here, people who are always open to the positive angle of any argument, there are a few people who come on here to belittle, use derogatory terms and basically spell out a doom spell.

If that was the only people on this forum, it would be a very bleak reading experience indeed.

If the doom spell was forecast as the only way forward and then something turned it completely around you'd have egg on your face. Until those locos are chopped up into little pieces, i'm going to have hope that someone can save a few of them and you should too, no matter how small the chance.

 

[DT611]

At the time, the most capable freight locos in Britain were class 59s, but BR didn't order any of these for political reasons.

Was that by choice, or was the bann on ordering products from abroad still in force?

When you have optimists on here, people who are always open to the positive angle of any argument, there are a few people who come on here to belittle, use derogatory terms and basically spell out a doom spell.

If that was the only people on this forum, it would be a very bleak reading experience indeed.

If the doom spell was forecast as the only way forward and then something turned it completely around you'd have egg on your face. Until those locos are chopped up into little pieces, i'm going to have hope that someone can save a few of them and you should too, no matter how small the chance.

Yes but in fairness it's not a doom spell to state that, like a certain third rail unit, much of the 60 fleet will likely go for scrap. Freight has declined, especially the type of freight the 60s were built for and they are only about what, 60mph capible? the same with another type of traction which is best not mentioned.

 

[richieb1971]

Was that by choice, or was the bann on ordering products from abroad still in force?

If anything it was more about being patriotic and seeing if we can measure up to the 59 standard. Sounds like we failed. I wonder how Brush look at this now in hindsight.

 

[D365]

If anything it was more about being patriotic and seeing if we can measure up to the 59 standard. Sounds like we failed.

By what standard?

 

[richieb1971]

By what standard?

Standard of not having post production problems, the class 60 was riddled with problems in its early life. Lifespan of the class standard, all 59's are still operating I think.

The 60 might be a better loco in some areas, but its areas that not many FOC's care about right now.

 

[Harbornite]

If anything it was more about being patriotic and seeing if we can measure up to the 59 standard. Sounds like we failed. I wonder how Brush look at this now in hindsight.

Not really, the 60 was less reliable but more effective at moving the heaviest loads.

 

[BR60062]

When you have optimists on here, people who are always open to the positive angle of any argument, there are a few people who come on here to belittle, use derogatory terms and basically spell out a doom spell.

If that was the only people on this forum, it would be a very bleak reading experience indeed.

If the doom spell was forecast as the only way forward and then something turned it completely around you'd have egg on your face. Until those locos are chopped up into little pieces, i'm going to have hope that someone can save a few of them and you should too, no matter how small the chance.

I totally agree with you there buddy. I was taught to look at things in a positive light. In regards to the Class 60's. The "done for" Class 60's would not perhaps be financially viable for restoration in preservation or rebuilding them for further use as they are in "Category 3" as where perhaps the Category 1 and 2 Class 60's could be reused and refurbished as from my understanding of the Class 60 scenario. None of the Class 60's before the "Super Tug" program ever received any major overhauls unlike the Class 37's, Class 47's etc did.

I always hope for anything because its hope that keeps people and projects alive because although freight may be in decline right now. Who really knows what the future holds? If I bought 5 Class 60's for my TOC (I don't have one mind), I will keep those 5 in covered storage as because if freight took a turn for the better. I could just dig out those 5 Class 60's, put right any work needed and then put them into service earning revenue .

To be honest. Also because of my upbringing. I use the same items like my computer until I have run it totally into the ground and I cannot use it anymore. In terms of my PC, if the case and the PSU is still fully working but the motherboard and processor fails. I would just get another motherboard and processor with the same ATX type fittings and use the same PC case and PSU for the power. Because why throw away something that is still usable with a bit work? .

The same theory applies with the healthy Class 60's. As in terms of speaking and comparison. The Mirrlees units would be the PSU and the SEPEX CPU is equivelant to the motherboard . Although I would not be able to bid on a Class 60 right now to preserve one as I don't have anywhere to store it or the funds to fund the project. But perhaps in the next 2-3 years. I probably could preserve another Class 60 which might be one of the 1993/4 built examples. If the PU or the CPU needed to be replaced with something else. It would be done and some companies like GE do offer re-powering packages for older locomotives and this video might be interesting to watch .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grHgwFAGJIM

So I agree with richieb1971's statement. Until I see the Class 60's cut up into bits. There is still hope and a chance of a future for the better and healthier ones. Even the bad eggs might benefit from that GE program if DBC wished to go down that avenue.

 

[Harbornite]

I totally agree with you there buddy. I was taught to look at things in a positive light. In regards to the Class 60's. The "done for" Class 60's would not perhaps be financially viable for restoration in preservation or rebuilding them for further use as they are in "Category 3" as where perhaps the Category 1 and 2 Class 60's could be reused and refurbished as from my understanding of the Class 60 scenario. None of the Class 60's before the "Super Tug" program ever received any major overhauls unlike the Class 37's, Class 47's etc did.

I always hope for anything because its hope that keeps people and projects alive because although freight may be in decline right now. Who really knows what the future holds? If I bought 5 Class 60's for my TOC (I don't have one mind), I will keep those 5 in covered storage as because if freight took a turn for the better. I could just dig out those 5 Class 60's, put right any work needed and then put them into service earning revenue .

To be honest. Also because of my upbringing. I use the same items like my computer until I have run it totally into the ground and I cannot use it anymore. In terms of my PC, if the case and the PSU is still fully working but the motherboard and processor fails. I would just get another motherboard and processor with the same ATX type fittings and use the same PC case and PSU for the power. Because why throw away something that is still usable with a bit work? .

The same theory applies with the healthy Class 60's. As in terms of speaking and comparison. The Mirrlees units would be the PSU and the SEPEX CPU is equivelant to the motherboard . Although I would not be able to bid on a Class 60 right now to preserve one as I don't have anywhere to store it or the funds to fund the project. But perhaps in the next 2-3 years. I probably could preserve another Class 60 which might be one of the 1993/4 built examples. If the PU or the CPU needed to be replaced with something else. It would be done and some companies like GE do offer re-powering packages for older locomotives and this video might be interesting to watch .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grHgwFAGJIM

.

I'm afraid the future lies with 75mph mixed traffic locos, preferably bi modes, like the 88s, for the majority of freight traffic. This is a shame because 60s are one of my favourite classes and I miss seeing and hearing them trundling through Kings Norton. Nevertheless, I think you might be underestimating the cost of owning just one of these machines. Don't get me wrong, it's good to have dreams and ambitions but you need to be realistic. If DB Cargo is unwilling to invest in some of the 60s at Toton, how will you be able to afford to? I recommend speaking to someone who actually owns a locomotive, such as Les Ross.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Standard of not having post production problems, the class 60 was riddled with problems in its early life. Lifespan of the class standard, all 59's are still operating I think.

The 60 might be a better loco in some areas, but its areas that not many FOC's care about right now.

How many 59s were built, 15? it's more than likely that if Brush had only built 15 class 60s surely they would all still be in service today barring mishaps don't you think.

 

[Harbornite]

How many 59s were built, 15? it's more than likely that if Brush had only built 15 class 60s surely they would all still be in service today barring mishaps don't you think.

Indeed, and I believe Therese's about 14 or 15 60s actually in service right now with DB. I know that 20 received super-60 overhauls.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

To be honest. Also because of my upbringing. I use the same items like my computer until I have run it totally into the ground and I cannot use it anymore. In terms of my PC, if the case and the PSU is still fully working but the motherboard and processor fails. I would just get another motherboard and processor with the same ATX type fittings and use the same PC case and PSU for the power. Because why throw away something that is still usable with a bit work? .

You have to remember that the emissions regs were way more relaxed back when the 60s were built, there's no guarantee that a new engine could be fitted that would fit within the space available and meet the emissions regs

 

[D365]

Until I see the Class 60's cut up into bits. There is still hope and a chance of a future for the better and healthier ones. Even the bad eggs might benefit from that GE program if DBC wished to go down that avenue.

There's 'positivity' and then there's wibble. Why do you think no more Class 57s were built?

Besides, your PC analogy is rather poor.

 

[Y961 XBU]

Indeed, and I believe Therese's about 14 or 15 60s actually in service right now with DB. I know that 20 received super-60 overhauls.

Currently DB have 11 60s in Service but 4 are off for work

Does anyone know the condition on 60011? I was looking through my photos before and found a shot of that from 2 Years ago and noticed its not among the active fleet so wondering what happened to it