Future of the Settle to Carlisle, Bentham and Ribble Valley lines

[InkyScrolls]

The southbound service had a few extra minutes dwell at Skipton, but the northbound service was pretty tightly timed. Both services were single 2 car 158s and did not detach or attach carriages anywhere.

But with frequent waits at the intermediate stations.

Around 2hr25m is the best you'd get with the current infrastructure.

Not true.

Leeds to Skipton is 35 minutes, you won't get any quicker unless you remove the electric stopping services.

Also not true. I've done it in 32 on a normal day, and that included stops at BIY and SHY. 30 is possible (if the northbound departure leaves LDS at xx22, for example).

Skipton to Carlisle is around 85 miles, with linespeed is no more than 60mph, with much lower speeds (e.g. 30mph) at places like Ribblehead and Dent. There are also lower speeds elsewhere along the route.

Again, not true. Aside from the immediate approach to Carlisle, and at Dent/Batty Moss, the line is fully 60 mph.

The S&C may have been an 80mph mainline back in the olden days, but 60mph is the maximum these days.

Indeed, and my timings reflect that.

The current limited stop 1340 Carlisle to Leeds takes 2hrs25m. It has just 2.5 minutes of allowances between Carlisle and Skipton.

Booked allowances, yes, but anyone who has worked it (including myself) will tell you that the timings are unnecessarily generous; plus they include stops at BIY and SHY, which I was proposing to omit.

On the rare occasions when I drove the Southbound train - covering for unavailable Leeds drivers - prior to my early retirement in 2012, we often had a wait of 5-6 minutes at Settle and then frequently another 2-3 minutes at Skipton.

A case in point!

 

[Ant158]

Interesting today that the Sunday service from Clitheroe to Hellifield is being operated by 150133. This is apparently due to a 156 having engine problems enroute.

I understand since the timetable change 158s which have run the route for the last few years won’t be anymore, but the route used to always be 156 operated before that.

When was the last time a 150/1 reached Hellifield?

 

[Bletchleyite]

When was the last time a 150/1 reached Hellifield?

Last time I used it (maybe 2 years ago) it was a 150 but I forget what subclass. Northern's random unit generator is still up and running just fine.

 

[splashoutradio]

Last time I used Dalesrail was in October, when it ran with a 158. However, since the December timetable change, Blackpool no longer sign 158's.

 

[InkyScrolls]

I'm slightly miffed because I went out to film the ECS movement to Settle Jct., only for my shot to be perfectly blocked by a service from Lancaster!

 

[InkyScrolls]

Looking at the other end of the S&C, is there sufficient traffic to warrant an hourly service between Carlisle and Appleby?

Or, more drastically, rather than all services travelling the length of the line, could units and crews be better utilised by having two independent sets of services, e.g. from Leeds to Settle and from Carlisle to Appleby (or perhaps Kirkby Stephen), with their hourly frequency interspersed with fewer services travelling the full length of the line, timed specifically to capture the walking market (which is 95% of the market at Ribblehead, Dent and Garsdale)?

 

[D6130]

Looking at the other end of the S&C, is there sufficient traffic to warrant an hourly service between Carlisle and Appleby?

I very much doubt it, but there may be sufficient demand for an evening peak additional two car service from Carlisle to Kirkby Stephen and back. The current 16 18 and 18 24 departures do nothing to encourage commuting to and from the Eden Valley. If resources could be found, I think a departure from Carlisle around 17 30 would be useful. The morning commuter traffic into Carlisle is adequately catered for by the 05 15 service from Leeds, arriving in the Border City at 08 02. Incidentally, this service is shown on RTT as having started from Garsdale about 45 minutes late this morning after the 05 49 from Carlisle was terminated there and turned round for an unknown reason. Meanwhile, the 05 15 Leeds-Carlisle was terminated at Long Preston and presumably turned round at Settle Junction. The same thing seems to be happening tommorrow under VSTP arrangements. Does anyone know what's happened/happening?

 

[Halifaxlad]

H

Looking at the other end of the S&C, is there sufficient traffic to warrant an hourly service between Carlisle and Appleby?

Or, more drastically, rather than all services travelling the length of the line, could units and crews be better utilised by having two independent sets of services, e.g. from Leeds to Settle and from Carlisle to Appleby (or perhaps Kirkby Stephen), with their hourly frequency interspersed with fewer services travelling the full length of the line, timed specifically to capture the walking market (which is 95% of the market at Ribblehead, Dent and Garsdale)?

How about extending electrification from Skipton to Hellifield ?

 

[InkyScrolls]

I very much doubt it, but there may be sufficient demand for an evening peak additional two car service from Carlisle to Kirkby Stephen and back. The current 16 18 and 18 24 departures do nothing to encourage commuting to and from the Eden Valley. If resources could be found, I think a departure from Carlisle around 17 30 would be useful. The morning commuter traffic into Carlisle is adequately catered for by the 05 15 service from Leeds, arriving in the Border City at 08 02. Incidentally, this service is shown on RTT as having started from Garsdale about 45 minutes late this morning after the 05 49 from Carlisle was terminated there and turned round for an unknown reason. Meanwhile, the 05 15 Leeds-Carlisle was terminated at Long Preston and presumably turned round at Settle Junction. The same thing seems to be happening tommorrow under VSTP arrangements. Does anyone know what's happened/happening?

Regarding the late running/cancellations: Telephone cables fell onto the track at RHD this morning. First southbound departure turned back at GSD, first northbound at Settle Jct. Should be running as normal tomorrow.

I very much doubt it, but there may be sufficient demand for an evening peak additional two car service from Carlisle to Kirkby Stephen and back. The current 16 18 and 18 24 departures do nothing to encourage commuting to and from the Eden Valley. If resources could be found, I think a departure from Carlisle around 17 30 would be useful. The morning commuter traffic into Carlisle is adequately catered for by the 05 15 service from Leeds, arriving in the Border City at 08 02. Incidentally, this service is shown on RTT as having started from Garsdale about 45 minutes late this morning after the 05 49 from Carlisle was terminated there and turned round for an unknown reason. Meanwhile, the 05 15 Leeds-Carlisle was terminated at Long Preston and presumably turned round at Settle Junction. The same thing seems to be happening tommorrow under VSTP arrangements. Does anyone know what's happened/happening?

Indeed, the lack of 'commuter' departures from CAR is a bit of an oversight.

How about extending electrification from Skipton to Hellifield ?

I very much doubt the money will ever be found; despite its history HLD is a small village with correspondingly low passenger counts.

 

[D6130]

How about extending electrification from Skipton to Hellifield ?

Why?

Regarding the late running/cancellations: Telephone cables fell onto the track at RHD this morning. First southbound departure turned back at GSD, first northbound at Settle Jct. Should be running as normal tomorrow.

Thanks.

Indeed, the lack of 'commuter' departures from CAR is a bit of an oversight.

That has been the case since I transferred to Skipton in 1991! It lead to a lot of commuters from intermediate stations to Kirkby Stephen gradually abandoning the railway and resorting to car sharing....especially in Winter when, for many years, there was no heated waiting area on the Up side at Carlisle station. (One or two that I can think of went to the pub though!).

 

[Ken H]

Why?

Skipton - Hellifield is quite busy with S&C and Bentham lines combined. If they used bimodes they could run electric leeds hellifield so a lot of diesel under the wires eliminated.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Skipton - Hellifield is quite busy with S&C and Bentham lines combined. If they used bimodes they could run electric leeds hellifield so a lot of diesel under the wires eliminated.

By that logic, why not Long Preston?

 

[Ken H]

By that logic, why not Long Preston?

Or settle jct. Cos everything stops at hellifield perhaps...

 

[70014IronDuke]

I very much doubt it, but there may be sufficient demand for an evening peak additional two car service from Carlisle to Kirkby Stephen and back. The current 16 18 and 18 24 departures do nothing to encourage commuting to and from the Eden Valley.

Don't they? (Serious question). It ain't perfect, but ... resources resources ...

If resources could be found, I think a departure from Carlisle around 17 30 would be useful.

Yes. Agreed, but resour.......

The morning commuter traffic into Carlisle is adequately catered for by the 05 15 service from Leeds, arriving in the Border City at 08 02.

Is it? (serious question). Is it not a rather early arrival? How many typically catch this train from Kirkby Stephen and Appleby? Would a train 15 - 20 minutes later attract more passengers? I don't know, but it seems a very early arrival, perhaps in order to get the return working out at a reasonable hour, ie 08.24.

Incidentally, this service is shown on RTT as having started from Garsdale about 45 minutes late this morning after the 05 49 from Carlisle was terminated there and turned round for an unknown reason. Meanwhile, the 05 15 Leeds-Carlisle was terminated at Long Preston and presumably turned round at Settle Junction. The same thing seems to be happening tommorrow under VSTP arrangements. Does anyone know what's happened/happening?

Looking at RTT, the S&C service this morning was a shambles. Sadly.

 

[30907]

Is it? (serious question). Is it not a rather early arrival? How many typically catch this train from Kirkby Stephen and Appleby? Would a train 15 - 20 minutes later attract more passengers? I don't know, but it seems a very early arrival, perhaps in order to get the return working out at a reasonable hour, ie 08.24.

It only changed from the later time about 5 years back
And the evening train used to be about 1755 when the down was 1449 off Leeds.

Looking at RTT, the S&C service this morning was a shambles. Sadly.

Non-railway power line falling across the line, see #609.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Non-railway power line falling across the line, see #609.

Thanks. Alas, the service has been even more topsy turvey this morning.

 

[InkyScrolls]

So it has - do we know the reason?

 

[70014IronDuke]

So it has - do we know the reason?

I'm afraid I don't.

But it's gone bad again today - 2H85, 08.24 ex-Carlisle took two hours + to cover the 10 odd miles Appleby to Kirkby Stephen. And there's othe cancellations.

Three consecutive bad days on the S&C this week.

 

[InkyScrolls]

There's been issues with an axle counter in the Culgaith area recently, to possibly related to that.

 

[30907]

There's been issues with an axle counter in the Culgaith area recently, to possibly related to that.

Person hit by train, unfortunately, says RTT. 0749 down from LDS

 

[InkyScrolls]

Person hit by train, unfortunately, says RTT. 0749 down from LDS

Ah, what a shame. I hope the train crew are alright.

 

[Neptune]

Person hit by train, unfortunately, says RTT. 0749 down from LDS

Nobody hit by a train. Person seen in 4 foot on Crosby Garrett viaduct but had disappeared when the line was checked. Obviously such a remote location with tunnels and viaducts takes time to check.

 

[InkyScrolls]

That's a relief! Though once again inconsideration leads to delays, cancellations and short running (Skipton to Kirkby Stephen being the only served section for much of the day).

 

[Neptune]

That's a relief! Though once again inconsideration leads to delays, cancellations and short running (Skipton to Kirkby Stephen being the only served section for much of the day).

Was it inconsideration? Could it not be mental health where inconsideration to train passengers was the last thing on their mind.

 

[InkyScrolls]

For sure. And if that's the case they have my sympathy. But in my experience, and having dealt with a lot of tresspassers, it's far likelier someone was using the railway as a shortcut.

 

[Neptune]

For sure. And if that's the case they have my sympathy. But in my experience, and having dealt with a lot of tresspassers, it's far likelier someone was using the railway as a shortcut.

To be clear they were lying down in the 4ft. Not the actions of the average trespasser having spent 30 years dealing with them.

 

[InkyScrolls]

To be clear they were lying down in the 4ft. Not the actions of the average trespasser having spent 30 years dealing with them.

Then that certainly makes a mental health issue more likely. But you initially said only that a person 'had been seen' in the four foot, not lying down. I don't think my assumption was an unreasonable one.

 

[Halish Railway]

Bit of an odd suggestion - Could it be worth removing the Cononley stop from the Skipton to Bradford Forster Square services so that these services can get out of the way of faster services coming from beyond Skipton, meaning that the slack timings of the Morecambe and Carlisle services can be tightened now that all services are worked by 90mph Multiple Units rather than lethargic 75mph Sprinters and Pacers.

After all I think 2tph Skipton to Leeds would suffice for Cononley given its small population and availability of connecting trains from Shipley to Bradford.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Bit of an odd suggestion - Could it be worth removing the Cononley stop from the Skipton to Bradford Forster Square services so that these services can get out of the way of faster services coming from beyond Skipton, meaning that the slack timings of the Morecambe and Carlisle services can be tightened now that all services are worked by 90mph Multiple Units rather than lethargic 75mph Sprinters and Pacers.

After all I think 2tph Skipton to Leeds would suffice for Cononley given its small population and availability of connecting trains from Shipley to Bradford.

Speaking from experience as a conductor on the line, I've found that the number of passengers travelling from Bradford or Frizinghall to Cononley, or vice versa, is very small indeed. Omitting the Cononley stop would allow Bradford - Skipton services to arrive at xx17/xx47, including pathing allowance; Leeds - Carlisle/Lancaster services could then be timed at (dep.) LDS xx18, SHY xx31, BIY xx36, KEI xx41, SKI xx55 (including two mins pathing, two mins crew change and sufficient junction clearance). You'd struggle to get a better time without the semifasts skipping Bingley.

From this it seems that you wouldn't really save much time by skipping Cononley, unless the semifasts ran fast from Shipley to Skipton (not possible under the current timetable but theoretically doable). This would give departure from Skipton at xx51, saving a minimum of five minutes over the current timings.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Wasn't CrossCountry supposes to run this service from December 2023 using the HST's?

I can see that idea being binned off!