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Future OHL conversion in the Netherlands and France

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HSTEd

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So there has been some recent noise in the English language press and in academia about the future of the 1500V electrification system in the Netherlands.

The reports were that the long-proposed conversion to 25kV 50Hz has been abandoned in favour of a shorter term conversion to 3kV, providing dramatic reductions in losses etc without having to replace all the signalling and other systems needed for a 25kV conversion.

This is on top of SNCF noises about replacing their 1500V system with a new 9kV standard, again in place of a previously projected 25kV conversion.

Does anyone know anything about this in the local press where more information might be available?
 
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DanielB

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I've heard absolutely nothing recently anymore about converting the voltage of the Dutch OHL.

The signalling system issues will probably be resolved prior to any voltage conversion. A recent progress report stated that by 2027 170 VIRM sets should be ETCS capable and prior to that some lengthy trial periods will allow testing of lineside equipment and stock under ETCS.
 

popeter45

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realisticly how high can you safely go with DC and whats realistic in how low you can go with AC?

as DC-AC is prob the bigger hurdle would upping all to a shared voltage assist in any way for conversion?

This is on top of SNCF noises about replacing their 1500V system with a new 9kV standard, again in place of a previously projected 25kV conversion.

9KV AC or DC?
 

HSTEd

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realisticly how high can you safely go with DC and whats realistic in how low you can go with AC?
In theory any voltage is possible in either AC or DC if you are willing to pay for the relevant equipment.

AC suffers at low voltages though due to the skin effect not liking large cross section conductors very much.
9KV AC or DC?
9kV DC
Here's some presentation slides that were given at a conference.
 

duesselmartin

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They ideas were muted at least since the 80s.
I cannot imagine that the NL will Go for an outdated 3KV system creating 3 different voltages in the system. A gradual conversion to 25 KV seems the only likely option.
 

MarcVD

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AC suffers at low voltages though due to the skin effect not liking large cross section conductors very much

At 50 Hz the skin effect is not that important.
Higher voltages with AC are preferred just because
1) it requires less copper for the same power output
2) voltage can easily be reduced for input into motors
 

HSTEd

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I cannot imagine that the NL will Go for an outdated 3KV system creating 3 different voltages in the system. A gradual conversion to 25 KV seems the only likely option.
The problem is a gradual conversion to 25kV means you spend the next 50 years living with a slowly decreasing in size 1500V system.

If a 3kV conversion can be done more quickly, thanks to not requiring mass resignalling and massive reword of existing structures for bonding reasons, then it can quite easily be more beneficial.
 

AlexNL

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A gradual conversion to 25 KV seems the only likely option.
This has been researched and shot down. It would take an awfully long time to re-electrify the network and costs would be astronomical. No solid business case can be made.

For 1.5 kV DC -> 3 kV DC the business case is more positive.
 

zwk500

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They ideas were muted at least since the 80s.
I cannot imagine that the NL will Go for an outdated 3KV system creating 3 different voltages in the system. A gradual conversion to 25 KV seems the only likely option.
Conversion of 1.5Kv DC to 3KV DC can presumably be done quicker than a conversion to 25KV AC, and harmonises with Belgium.
 

AlexNL

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There will be quite a lead time to switch the Dutch railways from 1.5 kV to 3 kV: all trains will have to be adapted to support running on both systems (as there won't be a "big bang" migration) and lots of preparatory work will have to be done in all substations and supporting infrastructure. Once that's all done the actual conversion can start, the actual conversion process itself is expected to take 1½ years.

That is assuming that all required expert staff is available and that there's a continuous flow of materials from the supply chain. Neither are a given in 2022.
 

MisterT

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From what I've been told, all new and renewed substations in NL already support 3kV. There's only a few places where 3kV would be problematic, so on the track side, there isn't really a problem converting to 3kV. Total costs for conversion is estimated in the tens of millions figures on the track side, so again nothing extraordinary.
Problem at the moment are the trains itself. Just for NS the total costs are estimated at 2 billion euros. So currently NS is in the talks with the government about the money.
A go/no go was expected by the end of this year, but I'm not sure about the status. I wouldn't be surprised if we'd get the go/no go in the next year.

So tl;dr: a conversion to 3kV is still in consideration. Go or no go expected in the near future.
 

contrex

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Last time I was at Ventimiglia near the Italian/French border, the Italian 3,000v DC system was reduced to 1500v in the station area, and stock running to/from France was all 25kv AC / 1500v DC capable. The AC/DC switchover point is quite a long way inside Italy. The Italian trains ran on half power in the station area.
 

zwk500

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Last time I was at Ventimiglia near the Italian/French border, the Italian 3,000v DC system was reduced to 1500v in the station area, and stock running to/from France was all 25kv AC / 1500v DC capable. The AC/DC switchover point is quite a long way inside Italy. The Italian trains ran on half power in the station area.
I suspect it's somewhat easier to make a 3KV train work on 1.5KV than it is a 1.5KV train work with 3KV.

Hasn't the Netherlands recently replaced a lot of it's stock? If so, is it 3KV capable (at least in theory)?
 

popeter45

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I suspect it's somewhat easier to make a 3KV train work on 1.5KV than it is a 1.5KV train work with 3KV.

Hasn't the Netherlands recently replaced a lot of it's stock? If so, is it 3KV capable (at least in theory)?
looked up the new ICNG they are getting
of the 99 on order only 20 have 3Kv capability for services to Belgium, all 99 have 25Kv for HSL-Zuid
 

MisterT

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All recent stock is 'prepared' (whatever it may mean) for 3kV. It could be as simple as adding/replacing the HV box (like it is with ICNG) but with the older rolling stock (like the VIRM units) it's not that easy, as it has never had that modular approach.
 

HSTEd

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The march of technology is starting to undermine the original advantages of 25kV installations.

Power electronic converters are a lot cheaper than they used to be, to the point that even 25kV substations are starting to use full power converters to reduce grid problems.
 
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So this means it's much easier to connect rail electrificaiton into lower voltage electricity industry supplies than it used to be, rather than at the HV 3 phase supply (for efficiency on return currents). But that kit costs a fair amount (it's much more sophisticated than your basic transformer and switching station, which is what most rail systems have). The 9kV proposal in the UIC slides would save a lot of transformers sitting round by the track not doing much between trains and reduce losses. But it's less clear whether it would be a net cost, not just energy saving.

Also, can HSTEd expand on what advantages of 25kV are being eroded here: it's a pretty good system, with loads of suppliers and experience (and reputed losses of c.2-3%)? 25kV can also be taken from lower voltage supplies (eg. 66kV in the UK) using power electronics, provided the local distributors are happy having the extra load. Thing is, near the larger cities (typically where the trains are), they are mostly not!
 
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HSTEd

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So this means it's much easier to connect rail electrificaiton into lower voltage electricity industry supplies than it used to be, rather than at the HV 3 phase supply (for efficiency on return currents). But that kit costs a fair amount (it's much more sophisticated than your basic transformer and switching station, which is what most rail systems have).
Whilst the converter station is substantially more sophisticated and expensive, that is not really reflective of system costs.

Traditional topology 25kV installations are awful loads for the grid - awful power factor with wildly varying and huge phase imbalances. It gets even worse because phase imbalance mitigation means substations cannot be operated in parallel most of the time, so loads jump between adjacent substations and between phases in a manner that is hard for the grid operator to predict in advance or react to.
This can all be mitigated through grid reinforcement work and the like, and for decades there was no other option - but it is certainly not cheap.

As a result, in recent years, as the cost of power electronics has fallen, we have seen a trend towards non-traditional 25kV topologies. The dominant one has become AC-DC-AC full power converters, where the AC supply is turned into medium voltage DC, before being inverted for feed to the traction supply system. The grid is then essentially insulated from whatever happens on the rail side, and in theory this will allow all 25kV substations to operate in parallel and make phase breaks a thing of the past.

The cost of the substation is higher but the system cost is far lower.
Also, can HSTEd expand on what advantages of 25kV are being eroded here: it's a pretty good system, with loads of suppliers and experience (and reputed losses of c.2-3%)? 25kV can also be taken from lower voltage supplies (eg. 66kV in the UK) using power electronics, provided the local distributors are happy having the extra load. Thing is, near the larger cities (typically where the trains are), they are mostly not!

Ultimately, by the time you reach 9kV, losses have reached levels comparable to the 25kV system - at that point losses are driven by things other than the current flow in the trackside conductors.
And if you are going to use power electronics to convert grid AC power into medium voltage DC, then back into highish voltage AC for transmission to the locomotive, where it will be converted back into medium voltage DC for feed to the traction system..... why bother with the conversion back to AC and then back to DC again?

You can just feed the medium voltage DC direct to the locomotive, and avoid two sets of converters and their associated losses and cost, and operate a conceptually far simpler system with no need for a sophisticated 25kV traction pack in the train. Either you build a PETT with a 25kV rated converter into the train, or you lug a huge line frequency transformer around - with 9kVdc you have to do neither, and it's even practical to build your traction pack out of line-connected MOSFETs.

The traditional advantages of 25kV were high power delivery and low losses.

9kV approaches or matches 25kV in those categories whilst having other advantages relating to a simpler power converter system and simpler control (no need for reactive power nonsense, DC is DC).

It is likely competitive with 25kV for green-field installations and blows it out of the water economically on DC-retrofit due to the bonding and other problems with conversion to AC.
 
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Thanks. But presumably the 9kV is stepped down via the DC - AC -DC converter to a lower voltage for the traction motors themselves (ie. replacing the role of the transformer in stepping down from 25kV to voltages that can be controlled more easily on the train itself?
 

HSTEd

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Thanks. But presumably the 9kV is stepped down via the DC - AC -DC converter to a lower voltage for the traction motors themselves (ie. replacing the role of the transformer in stepping down from 25kV to voltages that can be controlled more easily on the train itself?

We now have MOSFETs with ratings of 1700V each and IGBTs with ratings of 6.5kV or better each. [Types of transistors]

We have reached the point where it is feasible to chain MOSFET switches (let alone IGBTs) together and use them as very high voltage inverters.

In that system the 9kV could get chopped directly into the AC for the traction motors. There might be a high frequency transformer for isolation purposes but it would be very small and light compared to conventional ones.

In a modern 25kV system there is a transformer, then a rectifier and then another inverter to make AC for the traction motors.
 
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MisterT

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A go/no go was expected by the end of this year, but I'm not sure about the status. I wouldn't be surprised if we'd get the go/no go in the next year.
Well, it seems like a 1.5 to 3 kV conversion is a no go for now.
I haven't read the complete documents yet, but from what I understand, it wouldn't be strictly necessary until the currently proposed 2040 timetable, so the government doesn't want to spend money on it for now.
 
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