Future routes for Open Access operators

[The Planner]

Is this the same Ian Yeowart who once suggested/proposed a Birmingham - Swindon - Yeovil - Weymouth service using 230s?

The Stirling - London using InterCity stock at least seems one of the rare sensible suggestions.

No. You are thinking of GO-OP, entirely different.

 

[Mike Machin]

I would say that the time has come for the DfT to back-out of having control of Inter-City operations and all of the main long-distance services, such as LNER, Avanti West Coast, Great Western inter-city services, Midland Main Line, Cross-Country, plus the longer-distance South Western Services to Southampton/Bournemouth/Exeter, and Greater Anglia fast services to Ipswich/Norwich should all be sold off lock, stock and barrel to open access operators. Let the market decide which services are cut, survive or thrive and let's have some free market competition on these routes where it is possible.

 

[RobShipway]

I would say that the time has come for the DfT to back-out of having control of Inter-City operations and all of the main long-distance services, such as LNER, Avanti West Coast, Great Western inter-city services, Midland Main Line, Cross-Country, plus the longer-distance South Western Services to Southampton/Bournemouth/Exeter, and Greater Anglia fast services to Ipswich/Norwich should all be sold off lock, stock and barrel to open access operators. Let the market decide which services are cut, survive or thrive and let's have some free market competition on these routes where it is possible.

As has been said in other threads where you have made that comment, you still need the none profit making services as there will always be someone needing to get home or get somewhere using those services. In cutting those services, you would be making the problem for the environment worst, as you could end up making more people take to the road and no doubt many of them would be in none environmentally friendly cars.

 

[Bald Rick]

I would say that the time has come for the DfT to back-out of having control of Inter-City operations and all of the main long-distance services, such as LNER, Avanti West Coast, Great Western inter-city services, Midland Main Line, Cross-Country, plus the longer-distance South Western Services to Southampton/Bournemouth/Exeter, and Greater Anglia fast services to Ipswich/Norwich should all be sold off lock, stock and barrel to open access operators. Let the market decide which services are cut, survive or thrive and let's have some free market competition on these routes where it is possible.

That’s fine, as long as they pay their full share of fixed costs.

 

[adrock1976]

I would say that the time has come for the DfT to back-out of having control of Inter-City operations and all of the main long-distance services, such as LNER, Avanti West Coast, Great Western inter-city services, Midland Main Line, Cross-Country, plus the longer-distance South Western Services to Southampton/Bournemouth/Exeter, and Greater Anglia fast services to Ipswich/Norwich should all be sold off lock, stock and barrel to open access operators. Let the market decide which services are cut, survive or thrive and let's have some free market competition on these routes where it is possible.

There is already competition along those routes, which are the M1, M6, M74, M4, and M5 motorways.

I.e. the private motor car is the competition to the railway routes.

 

[Ayman Ilham]

How's the possibility of a Wales to Scotland OA route such as Cardiff to Edinburgh/Glasgow via the Marches and WCML? Major stops on the way would be Newport, Hereford, Shrewsbury, Crewe, Warrington, Preston, Lancaster and Carlisle but which stops would be more appropriate to skip in typical OAO fashion? Can't remember if it was discussed here already, but there should be alternative Cross-Country Intercity travel away from London, given how much the DfT have been making a pig's ear of the XC franchise.

 

[Bartsimho]

How's the possibility of a Wales to Scotland OA route such as Cardiff to Edinburgh/Glasgow via the Marches and WCML? Major stops on the way would be Newport, Hereford, Shrewsbury, Crewe, Warrington, Preston, Lancaster and Carlisle but which stops would be more appropriate to skip in typical OAO fashion? Can't remember if it was discussed here already, but there should be alternative Cross-Country Intercity travel away from London, given how much the DfT have been making a pig's ear of the XC franchise.

An Open Access competitor to XC could work instead of XC themselves. There would be little competition between Franchised or Nationally owned operators as they either run London Intercities or are Scotrail.
I would always personally like a National Operator run by DfT (or placed under GB Railways like SNCF or SNCB) to maintain a standard level of service for all stations with Open Access Operators competing between themselves. Sort of a combined Nationalised and Pre-Grouping makeup which is almost like what the EU have forced upon the Continental Rail Market.

 

[Bald Rick]

How's the possibility of a Wales to Scotland OA route such as Cardiff to Edinburgh/Glasgow via the Marches and WCML? Major stops on the way would be Newport, Hereford, Shrewsbury, Crewe, Warrington, Preston, Lancaster and Carlisle but which stops would be more appropriate to skip in typical OAO fashion? Can't remember if it was discussed here already, but there should be alternative Cross-Country Intercity travel away from London, given how much the DfT have been making a pig's ear of the XC franchise.

I suspect that would pass the abstraction test.

But it would never be remotely profitable, so it’s not going to happen!

 

[Ayman Ilham]

How about utilising dual-voltage units on an intercity service via the West London Line, say Liverpool Lime Street to Brighton? People from the North & Midlands could utilise it to easily go south of London without the hassle of tube-transiting between termini, either through to Brighton or change at Clapham Junction for services to Portsmouth and Southampton, latter being a potentially cheaper and less overcrowded alternative to XC.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

How about utilising dual-voltage units on an intercity service via the West London Line, say Liverpool Lime Street to Brighton? People from the North & Midlands could utilise it to easily go south of London without the hassle of tube-transiting between termini, either through to Brighton or change at Clapham Junction for services to Portsmouth and Southampton, latter being a potentially cheaper and less overcrowded alternative to XC.

You just know that would be the least reliable service in the country. And using what paths?
I do feel like some people do suggest wacky new routes just for the sake of it.

 

[Bartsimho]

How about utilising dual-voltage units on an intercity service via the West London Line, say Liverpool Lime Street to Brighton? People from the North & Midlands could utilise it to easily go south of London without the hassle of tube-transiting between termini, either through to Brighton or change at Clapham Junction for services to Portsmouth and Southampton, latter being a potentially cheaper and less overcrowded alternative to XC.

For that to avoid taking too much purely London traffic would it be a Liverpool Lime Street-Crewe-Stafford-Wolverhampton-Birmingham New Street-Birmingham International-Milton Keynes Central-Watford Junction-Clapham Junction-East Croydon-Gatwick Airport-Brighton

 

[FlyingPotato]

How about utilising dual-voltage units on an intercity service via the West London Line, say Liverpool Lime Street to Brighton? People from the North & Midlands could utilise it to easily go south of London without the hassle of tube-transiting between termini, either through to Brighton or change at Clapham Junction for services to Portsmouth and Southampton, latter being a potentially cheaper and less overcrowded alternative to XC.

It would be probably better to do it through reading, Guilford and Gatwick airport, as there is issues with the wembley Clapham line in terms of capacity

 

[miklcct]

You just know that would be the least reliable service in the country. And using what paths?
I do feel like some people do suggest wacky new routes just for the sake of it.

It may work if a commuter stock is used by taking over the current Southern Watford - East Croydon service, since the original aspiration was actually a Milton Keynes - Brighton service.

I would suggest the following stopping pattern:
Liverpool Lime Street - Runcorn - Crewe - Stafford - Nuneaton - Rugby - Milton Keynes Central - all stations to Wembley Central - Shepherd's Bush - all stations to Clapham Junction - all stations to East Croydon - Purley - Coulsdon South - Merstham - Redhill - Gatwick Airport - Three Bridges - Haywards Heath - all stations to Brighton, i.e. a semi-fast service north of MK, and a stopping service south of it.

 

[Bartsimho]

It would be probably better to do it through reading, Guilford and Gatwick airport, as there is issues with the wembley Clapham line in terms of capacity

It would have to be a Tri-mode then or be Bi-Mode Diesel and one voltage as Redhill-Guildford, Farnborough-Wokingham and Didcot Parkway-Bromsgrove via Worcester isn't electrified

 

[swt_passenger]

You just know that would be the least reliable service in the country. And using what paths?
I do feel like some people do suggest wacky new routes just for the sake of it.

It’s not actually a wacky new route though, it’s a definite historic route that was discontinued in about 2007 because they had far better use for the paths and better use for limited stock.

People have been proposing its reintroduction every few months ever since, whether XC or OA. I‘m never sure if the posts are serious…

 

[FlyingPotato]

It would have to be a Tri-mode then or be Bi-Mode Diesel and one voltage as Redhill-Guildford, Farnborough-Wokingham and Didcot Parkway-Bromsgrove via Worcester isn't electrified

Why would it be going to Worcester? It would be better via Banbury

 

[Intercity110]

Could a birmingham moor street to dover with turanrounds at gatwick brighton and ashford intl. work?

 

[paul1609]

I suspect that would pass the abstraction test.

But it would never be remotely profitable, so it’s not going to happen!

You know how pricing managers allegedly lurk on the fares advice forum looking for "Good Value" Fares to abolish?
I cant help but feel the CEO of BlackAdder Trains is lurking on here looking for enthusiasts ideas of suitably lucrative open access routes for him to unleash his fleet of battery conversion Class 379s on.

 

[Ayman Ilham]

For that to avoid taking too much purely London traffic would it be a Liverpool Lime Street-Crewe-Stafford-Wolverhampton-Birmingham New Street-Birmingham International-Milton Keynes Central-Watford Junction-Clapham Junction-East Croydon-Gatwick Airport-Brighton

I was thinking Liverpool - Crewe - LTV / Tamworth - MKC - WFJ - CLJ - East Croydon - Gatwick Airport - Brighton

 

[cle]

Some corkers here.

So much pathing which negates anything - I do think that North Downs and also Redhill-Ashford are underused, if we're getting fanciful. Guildford feels underserved as a place from a national/regional level (could EWR get there, using the dive-under at Reading?!) -

But to Gatwick and Brighton it gets tricky, and those are the biggest demand spots in that region.

The trick is to locate those lines with spare capacity, Marches being another good connector which isn't that heavily used - if they were quick, that Scotland could alternate with a Liverpool before TfW fire it up - and see what works demand-wise.

 

[FlyingPotato]

At some point there should be a Wales to Scotland, it's quite strange how they aren't connected but I guess there's reasons I don't know about

 

[Ayman Ilham]

The trick is to locate those lines with spare capacity, Marches being another good connector which isn't that heavily used - if they were quick, that Scotland could alternate with a Liverpool before TfW fire it up - and see what works demand-wise.

Use Marches to have an alternating Swansea - Liverpool / Cardiff Central - Edinburgh service.

 

[zwk500]

The trick is to locate those lines with spare capacity, Marches being another good connector which isn't that heavily used - if they were quick, that Scotland could alternate with a Liverpool before TfW fire it up - and see what works demand-wise.

No the trick is to locate the uncovered revenue. That usually requires London being in the mix somehow.

Notably the only OAO operations have been on the ECML, with approval given for one further on the WCML. Neither are routes you would normally consider to have an awful lot of spare capacity.

 

[Ayman Ilham]

No the trick is to locate the uncovered revenue. That usually requires London being in the mix somehow.

Notably the only OAO operations have been on the ECML, with approval given for one further on the WCML. Neither are routes you would normally consider to have an awful lot of spare capacity.

That's what I considered with my idea of Liverpool to Brighton via WLL (Watford Junction - Kensington Olympia - Clapham Junction - East Croydon) with Clapham Junction being a crucial interchange from this otherwise through service. Since the BML has barely any spare capacity, it might be easier to go to Portsmouth Harbour instead from Clapham Junction. Actually, that's not a bad idea given the low variety of services from Liverpool these days compared to Manchester and Leeds, as well as the fact Portsmouth lost XC services years ago (tbf so did Brighton before that). Liverpool Lime Street to Portsmouth Harbour, which involves London in the form of Clapham Junction, calling at: Runcorn, Crewe, Stoke-on-Trent (add another connection opportunity), Lichfield Trent Valley (or Tamworth / Nuneaton), Milton Keynes Central, Watford Junction, Shepherds Bush (for Westfield London), Clapham Junction, Woking and finally Portsmouth (either terminating at Southsea or continuing to Harbour).

 

[JonathanH]

as well as the fact Portsmouth lost XC services years ago (tbf so did Brighton before that)

Portsmouth lost XC services in 2003, Brighton in 2008.

Liverpool Lime Street to Portsmouth Harbour, which involves London in the form of Clapham Junction, calling at: Runcorn, Crewe, Stoke-on-Trent (add another connection opportunity), Lichfield Trent Valley (or Tamworth / Nuneaton), Milton Keynes Central, Watford Junction, Shepherds Bush (for Westfield London), Clapham Junction, Woking and finally Portsmouth (either terminating at Southsea or continuing to Harbour).

That would take hours. The crossing move at Clapham Junction to get from the WLL to platform 5 and trundle through Staines and Chertsey would be particularly agonising.

 

[zwk500]

That's what I considered with my idea of Liverpool to Brighton via WLL (Watford Junction - Kensington Olympia - Clapham Junction - East Croydon) with Clapham Junction being a crucial interchange from this otherwise through service.

It died out because nobody used it, what's changed? People in Brighton don't have much cause to visit Liverpool (2 football matches a year aside, soon to be one, and they go by coach by and large), and Brighton hasn't been a serious holiday destination for Liverpudlians since package holidays to Spain were a thing.

Shepherds Bush (for Westfield London), Clapham Junction, Woking and finally Portsmouth (either terminating at Southsea or continuing to Harbour).

have you looked at a Network map first? The only way to do this is via Virginia Water.

Oh and going via Stoke makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[swt_passenger]

That's what I considered with my idea of Liverpool to Brighton via WLL (Watford Junction - Kensington Olympia - Clapham Junction - East Croydon) with Clapham Junction being a crucial interchange from this otherwise through service. Since the BML has barely any spare capacity, it might be easier to go to Portsmouth Harbour instead from Clapham Junction. Actually, that's not a bad idea given the low variety of services from Liverpool these days compared to Manchester and Leeds, as well as the fact Portsmouth lost XC services years ago (tbf so did Brighton before that). Liverpool Lime Street to Portsmouth Harbour, which involves London in the form of Clapham Junction, calling at: Runcorn, Crewe, Stoke-on-Trent (add another connection opportunity), Lichfield Trent Valley (or Tamworth / Nuneaton), Milton Keynes Central, Watford Junction, Shepherds Bush (for Westfield London), Clapham Junction, Woking and finally Portsmouth (either terminating at Southsea or continuing to Harbour).

It’s not at all easy to get from the WLL to the SWML. No normal passenger services take the route, and AIUI it can’t be done directly at Clapham Junction anyway.

 

[zwk500]

It’s not at all easy to get from the WLL to the SWML. No normal passenger services take the route, and AIUI it can’t be done directly at Clapham Junction anyway.

Nope, you'd need to go through Barnes and Chertsey

 

[Ayman Ilham]

It died out because nobody used it, what's changed? People in Brighton don't have much cause to visit Liverpool (2 football matches a year aside, soon to be one, and they go by coach by and large), and Brighton hasn't been a serious holiday destination for Liverpudlians since package holidays to Spain were a thing.

I thought it was cos XC's poor management of rolling stock (4 or 5 car units quickly overcrowding) forcing them to run it to the ground? Liverpool was an example, other options could be Manchester or Preston, the latter being a connecting point for the Lakes and Scotland.

 

[JonathanH]

I thought it was cos XC's poor management of rolling stock (4 or 5 car units quickly overcrowding) forcing them to run it to the ground?

Poor management includes using trains to provide peripheral services that are better employed on the core operation.