Gatwick Airport Oyster Fare Issue on 20th Jan Closure

[hkstudent]

On 20th Jan, East Croydon to Gatwick Airport will be closed and GTR has advised passengers to use Southern replacement bus and catch trains from East Grinstead instead.
But, as to my knowledge, East Grinstead is not Oyster zoned, while Gatwick Airport will still be open and operate a much slower and less frequent journey via Three Bridges.

Couple of things here:
Can a passenger to use a cheaper Gatwick to London Bridge ticket to travel from East Grinstead?

Can a passenger touched in and back out at Gatwick Airport and to go through East Grinstead claiming that it has been touched in, while ticket acceptance is in place already?

Particularly, my friend is only doing a single journey back from Gatwick Airport to SE Jubilee Line area, which oyster PAYG is much cheaper than a paper single ticket.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Thameslink website is specifically saying that Oyster and Contactless Pay As You Go cannot be used for travel via East Grinstead (on 20th January).

So does that essentially just leave the buses via Redhill?

https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/travel-information/plan-your-journey/planned-engineering-work#engineering-departure-board

Extract...

Frequent replacement buses will run between East Grinstead and Gatwick Airport / Three Bridges. Customers are advised to travel via East Grinstead for journeys between London and Gatwick Airport / the South Coast. Please note that Oyster and Contactless Pay As You Go cannot be used for travel via East Grinstead.

 

[MrJeeves]

Can a passenger to use a cheaper Gatwick to London Bridge ticket to travel from East Grinstead?

Yes. You'll also be able to use Thameslink only tickets on the "Southern operated" rail replacement, and onward trains from East Grinstead.

Can a passenger touched in and back out at Gatwick Airport and to go through East Grinstead claiming that it has been touched in, while ticket acceptance is in place already?

No.

Particularly, my friend is only doing a single journey back from Gatwick Airport to SE Jubilee Line area, which oyster PAYG is much cheaper than a paper single ticket.

I think "much cheaper" is a bit of a stretch... £12.20 off-peak PAYG from Gatwick to Canary Wharf via London Bridge compared to £14.70 for a ticket from Gatwick to London Underground Zones 1-2.

I do wonder what would happen if someone travelled on the diverted trains from Gatwick to London Victoria via Horsham, though. I imagine they'd probably be let off (or probably not ticket checked at all realistically), but it's not permitted to do this.

So does that essentially just leave the buses via Redhill?

Two hours of RRBs, only to have your PAYG touch-in expire and then be charged two maximum fares? Ouch...

 

[JonathanH]

Two hours of RRBs, only to have your PAYG touch-in expire and then be charged two maximum fares? Ouch...

In practice, no touch in until East Croydon, so a free ride from Gatwick Airport to East Croydon if you wave an Oyster card or Contactless card?

This really needs to be fixed as part of Project Oval.

Is Oyster / Contactless actually valid from Gatwick Airport to London at all during this engineering work given no practical way to touch in and out?

 

[MrJeeves]

In practice, no touch in until East Croydon, so a free ride from Gatwick Airport to East Croydon if you wave an Oyster card or Contactless card?

Yes, basically. I mean based on my experience with GTR rail replacement, probably a free ride without waving anything (minus the time they did a revenue block at Brighton during RRBs but even then waved through smartcards)!

 

[dastocks]

Particularly, my friend is only doing a single journey back from Gatwick Airport to SE Jubilee Line area, which oyster PAYG is much cheaper than a paper single ticket.

Oyster is valid on the 'direct' services between Gatwick Airport and London Victoria provided you don't attempt to leave or join the train at Three Bridges or Horsham, those being stations outside the Oyster area.

It may be worth noting that trains on the East Grinstead route are diverted to London Bridge that day, although a connection to a half-hourly Victoria shuttle service will be available at East Croydon.

 

[MrJeeves]

Oyster is valid on the 'direct' services between Gatwick Airport and London Victoria provided you don't attempt to leave or join the train at Three Bridges or Horsham, those being stations outside the Oyster area.

According to who?

 

[dastocks]

Is Oyster / Contactless actually valid from Gatwick Airport to London at all during this engineering work given no practical way to touch in and out?

Yes, on the diverted direct service between Gatwick and Victoria, touch in/out at each end of the journey as usual.

This was discussed in the forum the last time there was a weekend diversion this way, confirmed by GTR on X (or Twitter), and I saw it in action at the Victoria end on the day. Feel free to check with GTR and post the result here if you don't believe it.

 

[MrJeeves]

on the diverted Gatwick Express service

One can only assume you mean the diverted Southern service...

 

[JonathanH]

Yes, basically. I mean based on my experience with GTR rail replacement, probably a free ride without waving anything (minus the time they did a revenue block at Brighton during RRBs but even then waved through smartcards)!

There is a difference between a lack of revenue protection, and the hopeless situation which applies with Oyster and Contactless (and indeed other smartcards) on replacement buses whereby no practical solution has been found in over 20 years to enable passengers to make appropriate payment for their journeys, preferably without the risk of timing out.

I hope that it is made clear to passengers starting journeys north of East Croydon that they can't use Oyster and Contactless via East Grinstead, rather than just letting them turn up there with no way to touch out.

The whole thing with Oyster and Contactless can be reasonably easily managed at Gatwick Airport and London Victoria, but is somewhat more difficult when passengers are already on a train at East Croydon.

 

[Joe Paxton]

On 20th Jan, East Croydon to Gatwick Airport will be closed and GTR has advised passengers to use Southern replacement bus and catch trains from East Grinstead instead.
[...]
Particularly, my friend is only doing a single journey back from Gatwick Airport to SE Jubilee Line area, which oyster PAYG is much cheaper than a paper single ticket.

[...]
I think "much cheaper" is a bit of a stretch... £12.20 off-peak PAYG from Gatwick to Canary Wharf via London Bridge compared to £14.70 for a ticket from Gatwick to London Underground Zones 1-2.

I've got that Gatwick to zone U12 ticket at £17.70, as per BR Fares.
(An aside - interesting to note that through tickets zones U12 up to U1245 are all routed "Thameslink only" - it's only for tickets to U1256 that there are also "Any permitted" and "Southern only" routes.)

The cheaper option would be a "Thameslink only" Gatwick to London Bridge (or London Thameslink) Super Off-Peak Single (only available at weekends) for £11.30 - so change at East Croydon onto a London Bridge bound Thameslink train - then an Oyster/contactless Tube fare of £2.80 to Bermondsey / Canada Water / North Greenwich, so a total of £14.10.

My experience from some years ago of the bus replacement operation between Gatwick and East Grinstead was that it was pretty slick.

 

[MrJeeves]

I've got that Gatwick to zone U12 ticket at £17.70, as per BR Fares.

There are both UZONE fares that are defined in data, along with UZONE addons that can be attached to any other appropriate fare.

In this case, the £11.30 Gatwick Airport to London Thameslink route NOT UNDERGROUND, along with a £3.40 addon charge for U12.

The cheaper option would be a "Thameslink only" Gatwick to London Bridge (or London Thameslink) Super Off-Peak Single (only available at weekends) for £11.30 - so change at East Croydon onto a London Bridge bound Thameslink train - then an Oyster/contactless Tube fare of £2.80 to Bermondsey / Canada Water / North Greenwich, so a total of £14.10.

Indeed this does work out cheaper overall, so the better option anyway! It's worth considering UZONE addons if you have a railcard but it's not on an Oyster, or if you have a railcard and you're travelling during peak as the addon portions are discounted at all times.

 

[dastocks]

The whole thing with Oyster and Contactless can be reasonably easily managed at Gatwick Airport and London Victoria, but is somewhat more difficult when passengers are already on a train at East Croydon.

That might be one reason the East Grinstead service doesn't go to Victoria that day.

 

[Joe Paxton]

There are both UZONE fares that are defined in data, along with UZONE addons that can be attached to any other appropriate fare.

In this case, the £11.30 Gatwick Airport to London Thameslink route NOT UNDERGROUND, along with a £3.40 addon charge for U12.

Ah OK, thanks, understood.

Given there is already a defined UZONE fare (the £17.70 one), what are the chances of getting a ticket office clerk to actually issue the the above summated fare of £14.70? I wonder if they are even allowed to 'override' a pre-defined fare if it exists?

Indeed this does work out cheaper overall, so the better option anyway! It's worth considering UZONE addons if you have a railcard but it's not on an Oyster, or if you have a railcard and you're travelling during peak as the addon portions are discounted at all times.

Useful to bear in mind.

 

[MrJeeves]

Given there is already a defined UZONE fare (the £17.70 one), what are the chances of getting a ticket office clerk to actually issue the the above summated fare of £14.70? I wonder if they are even allowed to 'override' a pre-defined fare if it exists?

Almost zero, as Southern's policy is not to issue anything except U1256 or Travelcards.

 

[Alex365Dash]

In this case, the £11.30 Gatwick Airport to London Thameslink route NOT UNDERGROUND, along with a £3.40 addon charge for U12.

Which, when combined, offers a £14.70 Gatwick Airport to London Underground Zones 1-2 route NOT UNDERGROUND.

Despite its validity, I can already see a problem with trying to present a seemingly self-contradictory ticket to LU staff!

 

[MrJeeves]

Well it should work in the barriers so hopefully you wouldn't need to!

 

[Alex365Dash]

Well it should work in the barriers so hopefully you wouldn't need to!

Let’s just hope the ticket doesn’t get demagnetised