Gatwick Express - hiding in plain sight?

[riceuten]

Probably a subject for a different thread (indeed I believe old threads have already discussed this), however it could largely be resolved by removing the fare differential, followed by removal of Gatwick from departure boards at Victoria for semi-fast Southern services as this forces people towards GX. Slightly harder to enforce in the up direction though, however that is probably less of an issue.

I'm definitely up for removing the fare differential for this, HEx and the Stansted Express.

Definitely a subject for a different thread, but I hate the "lying" departure boards that used to not display trains to force people onto other trains, or claimed that - in the case of the pre-Thameslink Great Northern slow service to Cambridge - that the train actually terminated at Foxton. Additionally, the semi fasts to Cambridge used to not be displayed at Kings X until the Cambridge Cruiser had left, often leaving you a few minutes to fight your way down platform 8 - great fun particularly if a train had just arrived at 8-11 - to get your train.

Seasoned commuters would soon get wise to this kind of malarkey and they form the vast bulk of passengers.

 

[jumble]

Hi all, first time flying into Gatwick for a while and headed to the station for a train into Victoria. Various trains advertised as "Southern".

Realised the one I was heading for was a Gatwick Express set - so would head into the double the fare platforms at Victoria.

Am a little amazed that they don't advertise these as GX on the screens. Very easy to entrap people onto their special not really any faster train to chivvy that extra fare off you...

Now on the 3 mins later SN service not heading for the double dare platforms...

The barriers that would charge the premium are closed as well

 

[riceuten]

Tees-side Airport Express, anyone?

There's often a way round the expensive option if you're not in a rush.

* Cologne-Bonn has a very expensive express bus, but you can get a local bus to Porz and the tram from there, which is often better if you're not staying near the centre, and much cheaper

* Paris CDG has the 350 buses to Port de la Chapelle which cost a fraction (€2) of what the train (€10.50) or express bus (€12) costs - particularly if there are a few of you.

* Brussels has De Lijn bus from the Airport (€2) rather than the €7 the Airport Bus charges, or €9.30 on the train

I could go on !

But then you get destinations like Lyon Airport who prevailed upon the local transport company to withdraw all but the expensive Rhônexpress tram service, because people didn't want to pay €16 single for a tram trip of around 30 minutes, and the Rhônexpress was operating half empty.

 

[Sussex Ben]

I'm definitely up for removing the fare differential for this, HEx and the Stansted Express.

Definitely a subject for a different thread, but I hate the "lying" departure boards that used to not display trains to force people onto other trains, or claimed that - in the case of the pre-Thameslink Great Northern slow service to Cambridge - that the train actually terminated at Foxton. Additionally, the semi fasts to Cambridge used to not be displayed at Kings X until the Cambridge Cruiser had left, often leaving you a few minutes to fight your way down platform 8 - great fun particularly if a train had just arrived at 8-11 - to get your train.

Seasoned commuters would soon get wise to this kind of malarkey and they form the vast bulk of passengers.

Seasoned commuters aren't generally going to Gatwick though, and those that are aren't taking up excessive space due to luggage etc. If it deters the passengers who are carrying suitcases, then the problem largely goes away.

 

[U-Bahnfreund]

* Cologne-Bonn has a very expensive express bus, but you can get a local bus to Porz and the tram from there, which is often better if you're not staying near the centre, and much cheaper

Not sure what you're referring to here, there's no express bus from Cologne to the airport, you'd just take the train. The bus+tram connection does exist, but they're the same price as taking the train, as all transport is integrated (3€ one way).

From Bonn there is an express bus, but again, that's the same price as taking the train. There's no tram connection from Porz to Bonn yet.

 

[miklcct]

Can anyone explain to me about the "price premium" on Gatwick Express and, aren't most people just board the first train to London Victoria regardless it is a Gatwick Express or a Southern service?

 

[JonathanH]

It's obscene when there are rammed other TSGN services that GatEx trains often worked 3/4s empty.

That doesn't happen any more, other than when they run the southbound trains to Brighton in the morning peak. It used to be a problem but the extensions to Brighton helped with making the loads more even.

 

[Ian Hardy]

Probably a subject for a different thread (indeed I believe old threads have already discussed this), however it could largely be resolved by removing the fare differential, followed by removal of Gatwick from departure boards at Victoria for semi-fast Southern services as this forces people towards GX. Slightly harder to enforce in the up direction though, however that is probably less of an issue.

Years ago when the semi-fast South Central services were operated by Network South East, the boards displayed the Up semi-fast services at Gatwick Airport with the destination Clapham Junction, so for anyone not in the know, the only trains to Victoria were the Gatwick Express services. However that disappeared when privatisation occurred because Connex South Central wanted a share of the Gatwick to Victoria traffic, as Gatwick Express was a separate franchise owned by National Express, after that all Victoria services were shown as going to Victoria.

 

[yorkie]

Newcastle Airport is in Zone C (the same as the coast & Sunderland), when the previous stop around half a mile away is in Zone B. 70p difference in single and £1 more for a day ticket.

That's nothing compared to the Gatwick premium; the fare from Victoria to Horley (25¾ miles) is £7 off peak / £12.20 peak but go one extra stop to Gatwick Airport (26½ miles) and the fare becomes £9 off peak / £16.50 peak for less than a mile, and that is the non "premium" fare.

That's a difference of £2 off peak / £4.30 peak, yet the fare between the two is £1.80 off peak / £2.20

And if you think the premium on the non "premium" fare is bad, the unlawful premium charge from platforms 13/14 is a whopping £20.60; that's an overall a premium of £13.60 to go the extra mile at off peak times; nearly three times the fare to nearby Horley.

If Jack & Jill take the 10am GX from Victoria to Gatwick, Jill exists at Gatwick and is charged £20.60 while Jack changes platform at Gatwick and exits at Horley, Jack will only pay £7. Jack could then pay for a taxi to meet Jill at the North terminal and still have enough cash left to buy Jill a couple of drinks with the money he saved.

Can anyone explain to me about the "price premium" on Gatwick Express

GTR takes the view that they are allowed to charge differential fares based on branding; I believe their argument is (or at least certainly was) that the brands are pseudo "train companies" for the "purpose of ticketing" which is nonsense; it goes against the rules stipulated in the Ticketing Settlement Agreement.

and, aren't most people just board the first train to London Victoria regardless it is a Gatwick Express or a Southern service?

Many people who are not "in the know" will tap in at Gatwick and tap out at Victoria with no idea whether or not they are going to be paying a premium fare or not.

Anyone who is charged a premium will be able to claim the difference back if the collective competition claim is successful, and so far anyone who has been charged a penalty fare or excess fare (on a paper ticket) and who has challenged this and requested a refund from GTR has been issued a refund as far as I know, but I only have the cases reported on this forum and by forum members to go by. I am not aware of anyone who was charged an excess or penalty fare being refused a refund by GTR but that's not to say it hasn't happened.

 

[43096]

There's often a way round the expensive option if you're not in a rush.

* Cologne-Bonn has a very expensive express bus, but you can get a local bus to Porz and the tram from there, which is often better if you're not staying near the centre, and much cheaper

Or there is the S-bahn.

 

[DavyCrocket]

DfT and the Airport want the "Premium" service...

What they actually want is a branded Gatwick Airport train.
What is the sensible thing to do is have a branded train, skip stations in between London and Gatwick where possible and charge the same fares, so that those with luggage can be encouraged on to that and allow space for the trains that stop at Croydon and Clapham for local travellers. Instead at the moment, there is a service that is the same or slower in the main, that charges a premium that discourages travel and moves it to trains that call at more stations and create crowding.

 

[BrianB]

Presumably call the fast Brightons a Gatex service then they can charge more? Or are the terminators coming back?

Sat and Sun no change other than changing TOC code from SN to GX, Mon-Fri the same, plus knock out calls at East Croydon all day and Haywards Heath off peak

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Sat and Sun no change other than changing TOC code from SN to GX, Mon-Fri the same, plus knock out calls at East Croydon all day and Haywards Heath off peak

Confirmed on Southern webpage now with no other changes being made to other services so E.Croydon and H.Heath losing services.

 

[Bishopstone]

Confirmed on Southern webpage now with no other changes being made to other services so E.Croydon and H.Heath losing services.

Haywards Heath retains at least 6tph to/from London (x4 Thameslink, x1 East Coastway, x1 West Coastway), and 8tph in many hours when there is a more frequent Coastway service. This is a very good level of service provision for a town of its size.

Though the focus is on the airport traffic, the extended GatEx is reasonably popular and well-used to/from Brighton. The lack of direct trains between Brighton and Clapham Junction remains an irritant to some, however.

 

[JonathanH]

the extended GatEx is reasonably popular and well-used to/from Brighton

Indeed, it seems to be impossible on this forum to get anyone to accept that. Gatwick Express is still regarded as being a shuttle service from London Victoria to Gatwick Airport that no one uses.

 

[PG]

If Jack & Jill take the 10am GX from Victoria to Gatwick, Jill exists at Gatwick and is charged £20.60 while Jack changes platform at Gatwick and exits at Horley, Jack will only pay £7. Jack could then pay for a taxi to meet Jill at the North terminal and still have enough cash left to buy Jill a couple of drinks with the money he saved.

I expect to see this on an exam paper next year with a 'write your own ending'...

 

[Kite159]

Indeed, it seems to be impossible on this forum to get anyone to accept that. Gatwick Express is still regarded as being a shuttle service from London Victoria to Gatwick Airport that no one uses.

And without it being a shuttle any premium it demands over a regular Southern service is minimal.

As instead of having a train sitting for 10+ minutes on the platform passengers get a minute or two if that to board, and find the train could be already busy. All to save a couple of minutes if that.

It's just a tourist ripoff.

 

[miklcct]

I don't think it's a ripoff as long as it is faster than the stopping services.

 

[Djgr]

Hotel rooms at different prices? Whatever next. Somebody should start a website and make lots of annoying TV adverts to let people know that happens.

Variable pricing for the same service, or premium rates for a nominal premium service are hardly rare in travel and leisure.

For a railway analogy, a passenger has absolutely no idea how much, if anything, the person next to them has paid for their journey. Just the same as flights, just the same as hotels.

That is not the point that I was making at all.

The point is advertising AT THE SAME TIME one hotel room as standard and the room next to it as executive and at a premium price when they are in fact identical.

Now obviously you think that this is moral. I don't and I would also question its legality.

Sometimes this forum drives me nuts.
So many people on it seem to regard customers on trains as an inconvenience and if not, simply somebody who is there to have their pockets emptied.

It is no wonder that the railway "industry" has descended into chaos and farce.

 

[nw1]

So out of interest when / if they do restart it have I got it right that they want an extra £9 to save 2 minutes...? I remember the old push pull 73 sets which were genuinely quick. Hadn't realised there was such little difference now between the "express" and the semi-fast.

While I can actually see the point of a 'crowd busting' shuttle between Victoria and Gatwick, to keep the regular trains free of Gatwick crowds, it should not be charged at a premium unless it features a premium level of service. Otherwise it's just consuming paths on an overcrowded stretch of railway.

If they're going to charge a premium for it they need to actually give you something for your money (like the old 73-hauled services used IC stock), rather than charging a fortune for the 'luxury' of not having to stop at Clapham Junction and East Croydon. Premium fares should mean a genuinely premium service (such as, for example, higher fares for using an ICE in Germany for local journeys).

As there isn't currently such premium stock available, they should probably just continue to suspend GX until there is.

The recent GX would be rather like NSE running a non-stop CIG or VEP shuttle to Victoria (painted red, of course, rather than regular NSE colours) and charging you a premium to use it when there were plenty of other CIGs and VEPs doing the same journey for a considerably lower fare...

 

[zero]

That is not the point that I was making at all.

The point is advertising AT THE SAME TIME one hotel room as standard and the room next to it as executive and at a premium price when they are in fact identical.

Now obviously you think that this is moral. I don't and I would also question its legality.

I have status at several hotel chains. I usually book the cheapest room and my status obliges the hotel to upgrade me, but often the upgrade is just to "executive", i.e. basically nothing.

Hotels do describe the features of each room type on their booking pages. I've never bothered to look closely into it but "executive" rooms often just have some extra amenities, such as slippers or a coffee machine, or maybe they're 30 cm wider. In some cases they are standard rooms but come with access to the executive lounge. If you find that the descriptions of standard and executive are exactly the same, you can complain and they'll probably "upgrade" you! Usually the price difference is £5 or so.

Not sure why the word "executive" is used in the first place as there isn't anything particularly executive about them.

 

[AlterEgo]

I have status at several hotel chains. I usually book the cheapest room and my status obliges the hotel to upgrade me, but often the upgrade is just to "executive", i.e. basically nothing.

Hotels do describe the features of each room type on their booking pages. I've never bothered to look closely into it but "executive" rooms often just have some extra amenities, such as slippers or a coffee machine, or maybe they're 30 cm wider. In some cases they are standard rooms but come with access to the executive lounge. If you find that the descriptions of standard and executive are exactly the same, you can complain and they'll probably "upgrade" you! Usually the price difference is £5 or so.

Not sure why the word "executive" is used in the first place as there isn't anything particularly executive about them.

Let's not even get into how many suites aren't actually suites because they are a single room...

 

[Minstral25]

From Gatwick airport passengers disperse all over the place - more go to Thameslink destinations than Victoria by far. When Crossrail/Elizabeth Line opens then Farringdon will become a major destination for Gatwick passengers to get to their destinations.

A direct service to Victoria only is long past its sell by date, better replaced by dropping the East Croydon call on Thameslinks Bedford to Brighton & Cambridge to Brighton services and replacing the Victoria departures with a Semi-fast to Brighton (Clapham Jnct/East Croydon/Gatwick & Brighton) and a semi-fast to Haywards Heath (Clapham, Croydon, Purley, Redhill, Horley, Gatwick, Three Bridges and Haywards Heath).

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

From Gatwick airport passengers disperse all over the place - more go to Thameslink destinations than Victoria by far. When Crossrail/Elizabeth Line opens then Farringdon will become a major destination for Gatwick passengers to get to their destinations.

A direct service to Victoria only is long past its sell by date, better replaced by dropping the East Croydon call on Thameslinks Bedford to Brighton & Cambridge to Brighton services and replacing the Victoria departures with a Semi-fast to Brighton (Clapham Jnct/East Croydon/Gatwick & Brighton) and a semi-fast to Haywards Heath (Clapham, Croydon, Purley, Redhill, Horley, Gatwick, Three Bridges and Haywards Heath).

Pathing through Clapham Junction makes calls there tricky

 

[dastocks]

From Gatwick airport passengers disperse all over the place - more go to Thameslink destinations than Victoria by far. When Crossrail/Elizabeth Line opens then Farringdon will become a major destination for Gatwick passengers to get to their destinations.

A direct service to Victoria only is long past its sell by date, better replaced by dropping the East Croydon call on Thameslinks Bedford to Brighton & Cambridge to Brighton services and replacing the Victoria departures with a Semi-fast to Brighton (Clapham Jnct/East Croydon/Gatwick & Brighton) and a semi-fast to Haywards Heath (Clapham, Croydon, Purley, Redhill, Horley, Gatwick, Three Bridges and Haywards Heath).

It may be that after the station redevelopment at Gatwick is complete and post-pandemic passenger numbers (rail and air) have settled there will be a case for replacing the current service with an 'Airport Express' running between Luton and Gatwick airports, calling at the Thameslink core stations from St Pancras to London Bridge only. However, this won't stop the Croydons whingeing about empty trains whizzing through their local station.

 

[miklcct]

If they're going to charge a premium for it they need to actually give you something for your money (like the old 73-hauled services used IC stock), rather than charging a fortune for the 'luxury' of not having to stop at Clapham Junction and East Croydon. Premium fares should mean a genuinely premium service (such as, for example, higher fares for using an ICE in Germany for local journeys).

Premium service means fast service. As long as the trains really get to Victoria faster the premium is justified. This is the reason HS1 charges a premium over low-speed rail as well.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Haywards Heath retains at least 6tph to/from London (x4 Thameslink, x1 East Coastway, x1 West Coastway), and 8tph in many hours when there is a more frequent Coastway service. This is a very good level of service provision for a town of its size.

Though the focus is on the airport traffic, the extended GatEx is reasonably popular and well-used to/from Brighton. The lack of direct trains between Brighton and Clapham Junction remains an irritant to some, however.

Agreed although why put the stops in the first place? Anyhow it shows that a C.Jcn stop can be accommodated.

Isn't the via Lewes/Worthing SN's 2TPH most of the day?

 

[JonathanH]

It may be that after the station redevelopment at Gatwick is complete and post-pandemic passenger numbers (rail and air) have settled there will be a case for replacing the current service with an 'Airport Express' running between Luton and Gatwick airports, calling at the Thameslink core stations from St Pancras to London Bridge only. However, this won't stop the Croydons whingeing about empty trains whizzing through their local station.

Missing out St Albans and East Croydon doesn't seem like a sensible idea. The point about Gatwick Express from Victoria is that it works with the track layout at East Croydon because a Thameslink train can be sat at East Croydon platform 3 while Gatwick Express passes non stop through platform 2. I'm not sure that works so well if the non stop running is on the London Bridge route. There is no particular reason to link Gatwick and Luton with a service that avoids East Croydon and St Albans.

That said 4tph fast from Gatwick to Victoria and 4tph fast from Gatwick to London Bridge does have a symmetry to it.

 

[willD]

GTR are not currently branding any of their trains "Gatwick Express" regardless of anything to suggest otherwise.

GTR are not allowed to charge premium fares, and at the current time have taken the premium gates out of use, though the unlawful charging is likely to return from 3rd April

If anyone is incorrectly charged a higher than expected PAYG fare, or an excess/penalty fare, they should request a refund from GTR, which should be forthcoming (and indeed has been paid out by GTR in every case that I am aware of) and in the event that GTR does not pay out, they will be able to claim compensation, subject to a collective competition case being allowed to proceed ( https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...claim-against-govia-thameslink-railway.219550 ).


The GTR branding pricing scandal is not in any way related to airline or hotel pricing. Any analogies are null & void.


I think you mean operated by GX branded rolling stock, not "operated by GX"; the trains are operated by GTR, who have a monopoly on the route. GX ceased to be a train company back in 2008.

To confuse things even more, GTR has actually put "Great Northern operated by Gatwick Express" on Great Northern services run with Gatwick Express rolling stock. Which is of course utter nonsense.

 

[Djgr]

Premium service means fast service. As long as the trains really get to Victoria faster the premium is justified. This is the reason HS1 charges a premium over low-speed rail as well.

Do they though?