Gatwick Express stock re-badged to Southern

[class 455 boy]

There seems to have been a lot more southern branded units appearing on the Gatwick Express lately.

Twice last week there was a white and green 387 making up part of my train, and I was very surprised this morning to have a pair of 377/2s turn up, along with announcements that it's a Southern service!

 

[D3WY]

There are various white trains moved to southern 387s from great Northern and some from Southeastern (can tell by the door colours) the GN ones came down as they got 30 379s recently. SE got a load of 700s or 701s (someone can correct which one)

They usualy link up with 4 car GX to do the coastal routes.

GX been doing coastal routes lately because they were not getting anywhere near as much mileage put on them so when the 313s got scrapped they pulled the GXs to make up the numbers.

SN coastal drivers (like myself) will sign 377s and 387 from day 1 and those who didn't had a 387 conversion. Most if not all SN drivers sign 387 now.

Again someone may be able to correct me, but this is my understanding of it

 

[NSE]

There are various white trains moved to southern 387s from great Northern and some from Southeastern (can tell by the door colours) the GN ones came down as they got 30 379s recently. SE got a load of 700s or 701s (someone can correct which one)

They usualy link up with 4 car GX to do the coastal routes.

GX been doing coastal routes lately because they were not getting anywhere near as much mileage put on them so when the 313s got scrapped they pulled the GXs to make up the numbers.

SN coastal drivers (like myself) will sign 377s and 387 from day 1 and those who didn't had a 387 conversion. Most if not all SN drivers sign 387 now.

Again someone may be able to correct me, but this is my understanding of it

Actually the three blue door 387s came from c2c. SN are handing a small number of 377’s to SE, SE are certainly not in a position to give up rolling stock. SE did get 707’s from SWR but those were to boost the fleet and help facilitate the removal of some Networkers.

To my knowledge all coastal drivers sign 387’s now.

 

[D3WY]

Actually the three blue door 387s came from c2c. SN are handing a small number of 377’s to SE, SE are certainly not in a position to give up rolling stock. SE did get 707’s from SWR but those were to boost the fleet and help facilitate the removal of some Networkers.

To my knowledge all coastal drivers sign 387’s now.

Ahhh okay! Now you say that I did see one with a vague outline of C2C on it. I just assumed it was originally C2C than moved to SE than to SN!! Thanks for confirming that! All my knowledge is a bit of hearsay and guesswork haha

Yeah il be signing 387s from day one. I have already done some coupling and uncoupling with the GX 387s

 

[Janerz]

SN coastal drivers (like myself) will sign 377s and 387 from day 1 and those who didn't had a 387 conversion. Most if not all SN drivers sign 387 now.

Again someone may be able to correct me, but this is my understanding of it

Most metro drivers do not sign 387’s. The exceptions being Selhurst & Vic link 1. I’m surprised they haven’t got Norwood link 1 drivers to sign them, as the units are dual voltage and they could take them up to Watford Junction. Having 8 cars on this route would be good during the peak.

 

[yorkie]

...I’m surprised they haven’t got Norwood link 1 drivers to sign them, as the units are dual voltage and they could take them up to Watford Junction. Having 8 cars on this route would be good during the peak.

Though any further discussion of such a possibility would need to be in Speculative Discussion, don't forget

 

[NSE]

Most metro drivers do not sign 387’s. The exceptions being Selhurst & Vic link 1. I’m surprised they haven’t got Norwood link 1 drivers to sign them, as the units are dual voltage and they could take them up to Watford Junction. Having 8 cars on this route would be good during the peak.

Without taking the convo away too much, I don’t know if they could off the bat. The service is conductor operated north of Clapham Junction and I don’t know if 387’s are approved for conductor use. Yes, I know, it’s probably a very simple job, but if conductors have to be taken to do a conversion course for a day, it’s probably not worth the hassle.

 

[DavyCrocket]

I’m currently in an alleged Gatwick Express train where four of the eight are Southern carriages (though the first class has Gatwick express antimacassars).

The Gatwick Express OBS (who took over from Southern) at Gatwick, they made a comment about half the train being disguised as a Southern.
I’m fairly sure he usually mentions that only certain tickets are valid, but hasn’t on this occasion.

 

[MCR247]

I’m currently in an alleged Gatwick Express train where four of the eight are Southern carriages (though the first class has Gatwick express antimacassars).

The Gatwick Express OBS (who took over from Southern) at Gatwick, they made a comment about half the train being disguised as a Southern.
I’m fairly sure he usually mentions that only certain tickets are valid, but hasn’t on this occasion.

From the sounds of it you’re on a set that is half 387/2 and half 387/1 - the pedantic train nerd in me wants to say the /1s aren’t actually former Southern carriages they’re from the GN side of GTR - but then with their Southern maquette, white base coat and dark green doors what’s the point

 

[DavyCrocket]

Yes I think they are the ex GN like you say

 

[stssts1985]

There’s been a real mix of rolling stock lately on the East Coastway line. Gatwick Express (GX) units continue to be the main traction on the Brighton–Ore service, as they have been for the past few years.

More recently, I’ve noticed GX units—alongside former Great Northern (GN) units—running on services between London Victoria and Eastbourne/Ore. These formations include mixed sets (GX + GN) or two GX units together. I’ve also seen Brighton–Ore services operated entirely by GN units.

Someone mentioned earlier that mixing different branded stock is “illegal,” but that doesn't seem to hold true in practice. On a GX service from Brighton to Victoria, the guard made repeated announcements that tickets marked "Not Gatwick Express," "Southern only," or "Thameslink only" were not valid. Interestingly, that particular train was formed of a former GN unit along with two GX units.

 

[yorkie]

Moderator note: This thread is for rolling stock updates only; for discussion regarding what might happen with the GX brand, please use the following thread:

Might GTR abolish their "Gatwick Express" brand?

With all the confusion by GX now seemingly operated as a regular Southern service, so does GTR plan to discontinue GX and replace it with ordinary Southern express services as most now run to Brighton thus GX seems redundant as a separate brand? London branded airport express services could...

www.railforums.co.uk

...Someone mentioned earlier that mixing different branded stock is “illegal,” but that doesn't seem to hold true in practice...

Did anyone actually say that? If you are referring to any previous post, we do ask that you click the "Reply" button underneath the post in question, to ensure that a quote is provided.

... On a GX service from Brighton to Victoria, the guard made repeated announcements that tickets marked "Not Gatwick Express," "Southern only," or "Thameslink only" were not valid...

The OBS (not Guard; the trains are Driver Only Operated) can announce whatever nonsense their employer tells them to, but that does not change the legal position; I refer you to the many previous threads on the subject, such as (among others):

Collective competition claim against Govia Thameslink Railway

This press release hit the newswires yesterday: COLLECTIVE COMPETITION CLAIM AGAINST GOVIA THAMESLINK RAILWAY FOR OVERCHARGING RAIL PASSENGERS ON BRIGHTON MAINLINE SINCE OCTOBER 2015 London 6 July 2021 – An application to commence an opt-out collective action (“Claim”) was launched in the...

www.railforums.co.uk

Gatwick Express: Tickets marked "Not Gatwick Express" claimed as not valid at Brighton

At Brighton. Why would a NOT Gatwick Express ticket not be valid on this??!

www.railforums.co.uk

Thamelink only valid on Gatwick Express train from London Bridge to Hove?

Hey. I wondered if you kind people could give me the evidence to prove my ticket (Thamelink only) London Bridge to Brighton is valid on Southern Gatwick Express (nothing to do with Gatwick) is valid instead to Hove? The ticket I have has always been accepted by conductors on the train for...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[stadler]

Without taking the convo away too much, I don’t know if they could off the bat. The service is conductor operated north of Clapham Junction and I don’t know if 387’s are approved for conductor use. Yes, I know, it’s probably a very simple job, but if conductors have to be taken to do a conversion course for a day, it’s probably not worth the hassle.

Selhurst Guards already sign the 387s so no additional conversion course is required. The 387s are listed on their cards as a stock they sign. The 387s have been signed since 2016 when GX and SN started rolling out the trains and this has continued even though the DOO rollout in 2017 means that no Guard has worked any 387s since then. I have been told this has specifically been continued so that 387s could be used on Clapham to Watford services in the future if necessary. There are no plans to do so but they could be put on Clapham to Watford trains if necessary and if Norwood Drivers did the conversion course.

From a Guards perspective the 377s and 387s are identical and no additional Guard training is required. Only the Drivers require doing a simple conversion course. The only difference for a Guard on a 377 vs 387 is that on 387s they can close the doors from the cab where as on 377s they have to use ten bell from the cab as the buttons do not work. But this minor difference is already mentioned to them in their training and the Guards are allowed to still use the ten bell 377s method on the 387s if they wish which means there is no difference at all.

Many of the Selhurst Guards have already worked 387s in their early days anyway. Between 2016 to 2017 they used to require Guards on the peak hour Gatwick Express and Southern services that called at smaller BML stations. Some of these turns were Selhurst Guards duties.

The 387s have been worked by Guards at different TOCs many times so they are certainly approved for Guard operation. As mentioned Gatwick Express and Southern used to have Guards on 387s South of Gatwick all stations stoppers for about a year between 2016 to 2017 back in their early days. C2C had Guards on 387s for about six months from 2016 to 2017 before DOO was rolled out on their 12 coach services. GWR currently have Guards on 387s on their Cardiff services on the Didcot to Cardiff section.

So yes the 387s could be used on Clapham to Watford services without any additional Guard training. It would just be a simple case of getting the Norwood based Drivers to do the 387s conversion course. Southern have more than enough 377/7s (and 377/2s also) so there is no immediate need to do so and i am not aware of any plans either. But perhaps in the future it could be done to add extra flexibility.

 

[winks]

Have seen plenty of Red GatEx trains running out of Fratton today. Are they working West Coastway route or heading up the Arun Valley ?

 

[Sun Chariot]

Have seen plenty of Red GatEx trains running out of Fratton today. Are they working West Coastway route or heading up the Arun Valley ?

387/2 GX units have been pathed on Brighton Southampton workings since June 2024. It's quite surreal to see them on the West Coastway all-stations.

The Soton services have been replaced by buses all the past week (planned NR work), so that might explain the 387/2s at Fratton

 

[JonathanH]

The Soton services have been replaced by buses all the past week (planned NR work), so that might explain the 387/2s at Fratton

More accurately, diverted to Portsmouth.

 

[Sun Chariot]

More accurately, diverted to Portsmouth.

The trains, yes. But the rail replacement buses were running between Havant and Southampton all last week

 

[JonathanH]

The trains, yes. But the rail replacement buses were running between Havant and Southampton all last week

Yes, but no attempt to terminate at Havant, therefore the sightings at Fratton.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Yes, but no attempt to terminate at Havant, therefore the sightings at Fratton.

Absolutely. I had hoped to drive down there and get a photo of a 387/1 at Fratton but, alas, work and other commitments got in the way.