Gatwick works service reductions

[southern442]

What are the service changes during the Gatwick Airport station upgrade period? Is there any re-jigging of mainline service patterns or will it just be that a few services are cut and everything else is left as is?

 

[Peregrine 4903]

What are the service changes during the Gatwick Airport station upgrade period? Is there any re-jigging of mainline service patterns or will it just be that a few services are cut and everything else is left as is?

Well obviously Covid has changed everything but if I remember correctly, the semi fast London Victoria - Brightons were withdrawn. The two Gatwick Express Victoria - Gatwick Airport services were also withdrawn. The other two Gatwick Express services were rebranded as Southern services and run through to Brighton all day also calling at East Croydon.

The Vic - Littlehampton's/Eastbourne's no longer split and join at Haywards Heath and have been seperated out to become their own individual services.

Anyone correct me if I'm wrong.

This is because Platform 6 at Gatwick is closed and train cannot call at Platform 5 at the minute.

 

[southern442]

Well obviously Covid has changed everything but if I remember correctly, the semi fast London Victoria - Brightons were withdrawn. The two Gatwick Express Victoria - Gatwick Airport services were also withdrawn. The other two Gatwick Express services were rebranded as Southern services and run through to Brighton all day also calling at East Croydon.

The Vic - Littlehampton's/Eastbourne's no longer split and join at Haywards Heath and have been seperated out to become their own individual services.

Anyone correct me if I'm wrong.

This is because Platform 6 at Gatwick is closed and train cannot call at Platform 5 at the minute.

Ah I see, so was this going to happen anyway regardless of COVID?
I remember at the beginning of the pandemic, it was hourly to each of Littlehampton and Eastbourne, with the Littlehampton train also replacing a Brighton to West Worthing service too, stopping at all stations from Burgess Hill onwards, which must've been fun! Now it seems the 'Mainline East' service remains hourly but carries on to Ore, and the Littlehampton service is now half-hourly, which means there is an overall 3tph reduction in services on the BML rather than 4tph if they had kept both hourly.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Ah I see, so was this going to happen anyway regardless of COVID?
I remember at the beginning of the pandemic, it was hourly to each of Littlehampton and Eastbourne, with the Littlehampton train also replacing a Brighton to West Worthing service too, stopping at all stations from Burgess Hill onwards, which must've been fun! Now it seems the 'Mainline East' service remains hourly but carries on to Ore, and the Littlehampton service is now half-hourly, which means there is an overall 3tph reduction in services on the BML rather than 4tph if they had kept both hourly.

Yes it was. The Eastbourne service should be half hourly along with the Littlehampton service although the reduced timetable due to Covid and the Salfords landslip may have caused this to go down to hourly temporarily.

 

[southern442]

I actually rather like this form of the timetable to be honest, in particular the Victoria to Brighton fast stopping pattern is quite a sensible one to me.
What was the reason for splitting the Littlehampton and Eastbourne services? If they ran together would it allow for a slower Brighton service to be added?

 

[Peregrine 4903]

I actually rather like this form of the timetable to be honest, in particular the Victoria to Brighton fast stopping pattern is quite a sensible one to me.
What was the reason for splitting the Littlehampton and Eastbourne services? If they ran together would it allow for a slower Brighton service to be added?

I'm not sure but I can make a strong guess it was to improve reliability. Yes it would as that's what happened pre Gatwick Works.

 

[southern442]

I'm not sure but I can make a strong guess it was to improve reliability. Yes it would as that's what happened pre Gatwick Works.

That makes sense, I suppose with reduced capacity the dividing at Haywards Heath has the potential to really screw things over. The one thing I think the BML needs would be a Brighton stopper that calls at Clapham Junction and Redhill, as that would give Redhill both a (regular) fast service to London and a (regular) link to the coast once again. But that's going a bit off topic methinks.

 

[JonathanH]

That makes sense, I suppose with reduced capacity the dividing at Haywards Heath has the potential to really screw things over. The one thing I think the BML needs would be a Brighton stopper that calls at Clapham Junction and Redhill, as that would give Redhill both a (regular) fast service to London and a (regular) link to the coast once again. But that's going a bit off topic methinks.

No it doesn't (at least from the point of view of passengers south of Gatwick). Running via Redhill is unreliable, requires two conflicting moves on each service, is difficult to timetable and extends journey times for passengers on the Brighton line. The Horsham to Peterborough service gives Redhill a reasonably fast service to London.

Part of the attraction of removing splitting at Haywards Heath is that there were times when the demand was enough for an eight car train from both routes. Clearly that is not a problem any more but the decisions were made before March 2020.

 

[southern442]

No it doesn't (at least from the point of view of passengers south of Gatwick). Running via Redhill is unreliable, requires two conflicting moves on each service, is difficult to timetable and extends journey times for passengers on the Brighton line. The Horsham to Peterborough service gives Redhill a reasonably fast service to London.

I do think that the Horsham train should skip Merstham and Coulsdon South and give those stops to the Gatwick train, to create a better fast/slow pattern for Redhill travellers. A Redhill stop on a coastal service would make things tricky but it wouldn't extend any journey times for anyone using the fast service, and it perhaps could be done if it travelled on the slow lines north of Three Bridges. But then again it doesn't have to run. I was under the impression that Redhill and it's passengers felt hard done by when they got rid of the coastal services, but if there is no demand for it then obviously it would be more trouble than it's worth.

Part of the attraction of removing splitting at Haywards Heath is that there were times when the demand was enough for an eight car train from both routes. Clearly that is not a problem any more but the decisions were made before March 2020.

I remember seeing a Littlehampton & Eastbourne train at Clapham (front 8 for Littlehampton, rear 4 for Eastbourne) and the back unit was already rammed!

When I was younger and a little more naive I thought that 442's might have been better suited on the dividing diagrams (I know, I know) but that was because each branch really needs it's own high-capacity unit, and the same goes for the Southampton/Portsmouth and Bognor trains. Perhaps 2x377/3's might have been a good idea in another universe?

 

[JonathanH]

Perhaps 2x377/3's might have been a good idea in another universe?

Funnily enough, 2x377/3 was a fixture on Brighton fasts when they were first introduced as it enabled two 6-car trains to go into London in the evening peak and come back out as 12-377 to Brighton. As you note, 8 and 4 didn't always work on the Coastway services prior to March 2020 (and I don't think 6 and 6 necessarily would have done either).

The Gatwick works has enabled / given an excuse to something which stakeholders had been asking for over a long period - ie the splitting of the two Coastway trains into separate trains from Victoria.

I was under the impression that Redhill and it's passengers felt hard done by when they got rid of the coastal services, but if there is no demand for it then obviously it would be more trouble than it's worth.

Yes, they do feel hard done by. There was pre-March 2020 demand as well but it is a trade off between having trains you can board at Redhill or cramming aboard trains that are already full with passengers from the coast and the operator has decided not to provide these services.

I do think that the Horsham train should skip Merstham and Coulsdon South and give those stops to the Gatwick train, to create a better fast/slow pattern for Redhill travellers.

I personally am quite content that the pattern actually gives a good balance between the two services which is actually better than a fast/slow pattern for most stations and it seems to fit with the rest of the timetable at Gatwick. The Gatwick works are really about the passenger facilities rather than timetable flexibility so I guess the timetable is fairly fixed for a while, especially if the Croydon works get called off.

 

[BRblue33]

Eastbourne to victoria there are two trains per hour. At the moment .

 

[paul1609]

I actually rather like this form of the timetable to be honest, in particular the Victoria to Brighton fast stopping pattern is quite a sensible one to me.
What was the reason for splitting the Littlehampton and Eastbourne services? If they ran together would it allow for a slower Brighton service to be added?

Because the 377s are 4 cars if you split Littlehampton/ Eastbourne one will be 4 and one 8 cars. The 4 cars on the Littlehampton have been overcrowded for years. Its not usual to stand to have to stand between Haywards Heath and Shoreham with the end of splitting all the services are timetabled for 8 cars.

 

[RichardKing]

Eastbourne to victoria there are two trains per hour. At the moment .

They've reduced it to just one during off-peak hours. The Ore - Victoria - Ore service.

 

[Ianno87]

Because the 377s are 4 cars if you split Littlehampton/ Eastbourne one will be 4 and one 8 cars. The 4 cars on the Littlehampton have been overcrowded for years. Its not usual to stand to have to stand between Haywards Heath and Shoreham with the end of splitting all the services are timetabled for 8 cars.

I think it will be very unpopular to go back to the old operation.

 

[Aictos]

I think it will be very unpopular to go back to the old operation.

While the amended Gatwick Airport works timetable has been in use, what has the reliability been like for the Southern services?

With the end of trains joining/dividing at Haywards Heath, is the service more reliable?

And judging by the comments above, it seems long overdue to have seperate Littlehampton and Eastbourne services.

 

[infobleep]

While the amended Gatwick Airport works timetable has been in use, what has the reliability been like for the Southern services?

With the end of trains joining/dividing at Haywards Heath, is the service more reliable?

And judging by the comments above, it seems long overdue to have seperate Littlehampton and Eastbourne services.

It might be hard to gauge with covid-19 reducing passenger numbers.

 

[Aictos]

It might be hard to gauge with covid-19 reducing passenger numbers.

There's still people travelling tho

 

[southern442]

While the amended Gatwick Airport works timetable has been in use, what has the reliability been like for the Southern services?

With the end of trains joining/dividing at Haywards Heath, is the service more reliable?

And judging by the comments above, it seems long overdue to have seperate Littlehampton and Eastbourne services.

I think reliability has generally been okay?

Having only 4 platforms doesn't help Haywards Heath especially considering it is Category B (making it one of the smallest stations in that category) and the fact that the outer 2 platforms spend a lot of time having splitting/joining services sat in them probably complicates things quite a bit, so removing this will improve things quite significantly. Littlehampton and Eastbourne are both important enough to warrant their own services to London (in my opinion so is Bognor Regis but that's lumped in with the West Coastway services and I can't see them splitting any time soon) and I feel like if they had an opportunity to successfully split the services in the past, they would've done.

Slightly off-topic, and I want to avoid a breakaway thread, but the lack of Gatwick Express services means there's an extra 2tph space between London and Gatwick, hypothetically speaking, one might be able to use this to split the 'mainline west' services, although I doubt there is demand for it just yet.

 

[paul1609]

Most people in Littlehampton who commute to Gatwick and North of by train drive to Arundel and catch a train up the Arun Valley its up to 20 mins quicker than via the Coastway line. For Bognor this is even more so. The whole of Arun district (Bognor and Littlehampton) is for historical reasons more associated with Chichester (the county town) and the Portsmouth Conurbation. Thats why Littlehampton has a direct stopping service to Portsmouth and none to Brighton Off peak.

 

[southern442]

Is the Tattenham Corner service being reduced to an hourly shuttle to Purley to do with this timetable, or is that a COVID thing?

 

[30907]

Is the Tattenham Corner service being reduced to an hourly shuttle to Purley to do with this timetable, or is that a COVID thing?

Covid.

 

[infobleep]

There's still people travelling tho

But not as many so one might hope more chance of trains being reliable, in terms of arriving and departing on time.