GBRf Class 99 - 30 locomotives now ordered

[ac6000cw]

AFAIK, the highest power locos in Europe are the Stadler Euro9000 (9MW) and Swiss Re 620 (8MW, and in service for nearly 50 years!).

I think the highest tractive effort loco in Europe is the Bombardier-built Iore iron-ore hauler at 700kN starting and 600kN continuous. But these are serious heavy-haul locos with 30 tonne axle loads, not far behind the TE performance of modern AC-drive US diesels with 32 tonne axle loads.

But the cl.99 starting TE of 500kN is respectable for a modern six-axle loco at (I assume) around 21.5 tonnes per axle.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Aug 2024 ==

Of course, with a 50L V16 1800rpm engine 'under the hood', the really interesting question is what they're going to sound like on diesel power....

 

[43096]

Will definitely be a reference to tractive effort. A standard Vectron is 6.4MW power, I think some of the European EuroDuals go up to 7 or 8MW as well.

The Euro 9000 is 9MW under AC catenary.

 

[Rail Quest]

Of course, with a 50L V16 1800rpm engine 'under the hood', the really interesting question is what they're going to sound like on diesel power....

Very interesting question... What's the engine going to be? Last I heard, Stadler were fitting these with QSK50s so maybe they'll have a similar base sound quality to the likes of the voyagers (and other QSK19 fitted units). I'm assuming they're going to have coolant fans that are as seemingly loud as the 93s so there might be a lot of hair dryer noise in there.

As long as they sound less annoying compared to a shed, I'll be happy

 

[ac6000cw]

What's the engine going to be? Last I heard, Stadler were fitting these with QSK50s

Yes, it's a Cummins QSK50 - see https://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-railway-magazine/20240304/282896620577577

I'm assuming they're going to have coolant fans that are as seemingly loud as the 93s so there might be a lot of hair dryer noise in there.

If you look at the 'blue side' photo earlier, on the left there appear to be three fans in the centre of the roof between the cab and the exhaust system (and some of the radiator is visible through the bodyside grille below them).

Enlarged view of that end - I think the black box to the right of the bogie is probably the diesel fuel tank. As the engine uses SCR exhaust treatment, I assume there will be a urea tank somewhere as well.

 

[Rail Quest]

Yes, it's a Cummins QSK50 - see https://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-railway-magazine/20240304/282896620577577

Ahh awesome. I've deep dived YouTube a couple of times in the past to see if I can figure out what that might sound like on a locomotive - this video is probably the closest to how I'd imagine it'll sound revving up:

I'll be pretty happy if that's how they do end up sounding as I honestly think it doesn't sound half bad!

 

[31160]

So is it still the plan for these to replace the 57s on the GWR beds and the 92/73s on the Caledonian beds?

 

[Bald Rick]

So is it still the plan for these to replace the 57s on the GWR beds and the 92/73s on the Caledonian beds?

Not sure that was ever ‘the plan’.

 

[43096]

So is it still the plan for these to replace the 57s on the GWR beds and the 92/73s on the Caledonian beds?

First batch of 30 are 75mph, no heat freight locos. So no - and it was never the plan.

 

[Energy]

So is it still the plan for these to replace the 57s on the GWR beds and the 92/73s on the Caledonian beds?

Its only ever been mentioned in passing in speculative discussions. GWR runs the 57s on Night Riviera themselves so 99s are unlikely, GBRf has the contact for Caledonian Sleeper so (ignoring compatibility) I wouldn't be surprised if 99s turned up at some point.

 

[Bald Rick]

Genuine question - are they going to have the ETH capability for a 16 coach sleeper?

 

[43096]

Its only ever been mentioned in passing in speculative discussions. GWR owns the 57s on Night Riviera so 99s are unlikely, GBRf has the contact for Caledonian Sleeper so (ignoring compatibility) I wouldn't be surprised if 99s turned up at some point.

GWR do not own the Night Riviera 57s. They are leased from Porterbrook, either directly for 57602-605, or via a sub-lease from GBRf (57312).

 

[Ianigsy]

I don’t think it’s final livery, this will be for the Innotrans show, as it’s Gbrf blue one side, Beacon black on the other.

I know GBRf like their novelty liveries, but they could at least stick to one per loco!

 

[JonathanH]

Genuine question - are they going to have the ETH capability for a 16 coach sleeper?

Post above says no ETS.

 

[800001]

I know GBRf like their novelty liveries, but they could at least stick to one per loco!

They will, on introduction?

 

[cj_1985]

GWR owns the 57s on Night Riviera

Unless something has changed, the 57/6s used by GWR are owned and, leased to them by, Porterbrook

 

[Energy]

Unless something has changed, the 57/6s used by GWR are owned and, leased to them by, Porterbrook

Correct, the Night Riviera mk3s are also owned by Porterbrook. I meant run by, as GWR provides drivers and maintenance while on Caledonian Sleeper I believe GBRf provides the driver.

 

[66701GBRF]

...while on Caledonian Sleeper I believe GBRf provides the driver.

...and the loco.

 

[co-tr-paul]

There is and never was a plan to use these on the Night Riviera.
The G Exam program currently underway will basically result in a new 57 .

 

[hwl]

Genuine question - are they going to have the ETH capability for a 16 coach sleeper?

Not the 99/0 but a possibly for later orders along with with different gearing for a higher maximum speed for sleeper

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Aug 2024 ==

Not sure that was ever ‘the plan’.

GWR put out some early stage tender process documents ~3 years ago but it has gone quiet since - see Paul's comment above on 57 overhauls

 

[ac6000cw]

Ahh awesome. I've deep dived YouTube a couple of times in the past to see if I can figure out what that might sound like on a locomotive - this video is probably the closest to how I'd imagine it'll sound revving up:

I'll be pretty happy if that's how they do end up sounding as I honestly think it doesn't sound half bad!

I think they'll be somewhat quieter than that.

Even the US Siemens Charger locos using the almost twice as powerful V16 QSK95 engine aren't particularly loud (quieter than our 68s, for example). I was a bit disappointed at how quiet they were (for a loco of that power) when I first encountered one for real!

Modern noise rules and the need for exhaust after-treatment mean the old days of the turbocharger exhaust going straight out through a hole in the roof are long gone...

 

[Rail Quest]

I think they'll be somewhat quieter than that.

Even the US Siemens Charger locos using the almost twice as powerful V16 QSK95 engine aren't particularly loud (quieter than our 68s, for example). I was a bit disappointed at how quiet they were (for a loco of that power) when I first encountered one for real!

Modern noise rules and the need for exhaust after-treatment mean the old days of the turbocharger exhaust going straight out through a hole in the roof are long gone...

Fair point. I've also heard clips of some of the mainland Europe Euroduals with the C-175 16 engines like those in our beloved 68s yet they don't sound half as loud as the 68s themselves. Even within the UK 68 fleet - the first examples of the locomotives, like those seen on Chiltern, sound to my ears slightly louder than the latter examples so noise suppression technology and regulations must have come a long way in the last 10 years.

 

[LocoGuy]

What a beast. It looks to me like the livery has been rushed and that doesn't look like the right Logo font either!

Which font do you mean? The GBRf, Beacon or Stadler logo?

 

[HamBuoy]

GWR put out some early stage tender process documents ~3 years ago but it has gone quiet since - see Paul's comment above on 57 overhauls

In the August 2024 issue of Modern Railways there is an interview/feature with GWR MD Mark Hopwood.

For the longer-term, GWR is looking for Class 57 replacements, with the Class 99 bi-modes due to be delivered to GB Railfreight exciting some interest. “Whatever we end up getting for the sleeper, the new loco will have to be able to use overhead electric, with one benefit being we can get out of using diesels in central London’ says Mr Hopwood. 'It'll need to be powerful enough to haul nine or 10 coaches up the steep bank between Exeter St David's and Central, because the sleeper is frequently diverted over the South Western to avoid overnight engineering works. And it'd be useful to be able to get in and out of Long Rock depot on battery power, as we'd like to reduce noise for local residents there”

 

[Nottingham59]

In the August 2024 issue of Modern Railways there is an interview/feature with GWR MD Mark Hopwood.

Sounds that Class 93 might be more suitable for the sleepers. What's the trailing weight of 16 sleeper cars?

 

[Energy]

Sounds that Class 93 might be more suitable for the sleepers. What's the trailing weight of 16 sleeper cars?

The class 93 is a bit down on power at 1200hp on diesel compared to 2800hp on a class 57, though they do have batteries to assist. A class 99 is 2150hp on diesel.

The class 99 would be fine but it needs an ETS supply. The 75mph top speed is hardly a problem on a sleeper train.

 

[Bald Rick]

Sounds that Class 93 might be more suitable for the sleepers. What's the trailing weight of 16 sleeper cars?

In the region of 650 tonnes. Albeit the Western sleeper is about half that.

The class 93 is a bit down on power at 1200hp on diesel compared to 2800hp on a class 57, though they do have batteries to assist. A class 99 is 2150hp on diesel.

The class 99 would be fine but it needs an ETS supply. The 75mph top speed is hardly a problem on a sleeper train.

The batteries on a Class 93 will dish out 400kW (540hp)…. for 12 minutes.

I forget what the hotel load on a 16 coach sleeper is, but would be surprised if it was less than half a MW (675hp)

 

[43096]

I forget what the hotel load on a 16 coach sleeper is, but would be surprised if it was less than half a MW (675hp)

The 92s have ETH index 180 on AC, which is 900kW and as far as I remember it, they are all but maxed out with a full 16 car Mark 5 rake.

 

[ExRes]

What's the trailing weight of 16 sleeper cars?

And a loco to supply train heat, but I believe that's been covered many times on the Class 93 thread

 

[Richard Scott]

And a loco to supply train heat, but I believe that's been covered many times on the Class 93 thread

Yes, seem to be going around in circles again and drifting off topic?

 

[Nottingham59]

In the region of 650 tonnes. Albeit the Western sleeper is about half that.
The batteries on a Class 93 will dish out 400kW (540hp)…. for 12 minutes.
I forget what the hotel load on a 16 coach sleeper is, but would be surprised if it was less than half a MW (675hp)

Thank you.
Let's do the numbers. The gradients up to Exeter Central is 1.5% and 2.7%, rising 40m in all.

In round numbers, the eight-car Western sleeper will weigh ~325t. With loco that will be around 400t. To get up the steepest 2.7% slope will require a tractive effort of 110kN. Well within the 290kN capability of a 93. A 99 would be overkill.

On diesel and battery, the 93 generates 1300kW. Allowing 500kW for hotel power gives 800kW for traction, which equates to a speed of 800/110 = ~7m/s up 2.7%. That's 15mph, which should be acceptable late at night. A 1600kW Class 99 would not be much faster.

800kW can lift 400t up 40m in 200s, so the 93 will take 3 1/2 mins to get to Exeter Central. Meaning the batteries will still be three-quarters full at the top.

The biggest hill on line BAE2 is between Cranbrook station and Honiton tunnel, which rises 130m over 20km. Averaging the gradient to 0.65% gives a speed of 800kW/26kN = ~30m/s, around 65mph, ignoring wind and rolling resistance. Taking 660s = 11 minutes to cover 20km. Battery capacity is enough to deliver full power all the way up, but would be exhausted at the top.

Back on topic, a Class 99 woud be overkill for the sleeper, even if it had hotel power. The 99 will be much better suited to hauling heavy aggregate trains from the Mendips to London, or max length 1800t intermodals up the hill from Felixstowe, where the 500kN tractive effort would be put to good use.

Line profile and gradient data from: https://www.railwaydata.co.uk/linefiles/route/?ELR=BAE2