Generational moment ...

[Taunton]

Discussion with (I believe aged late 30-something) colleague about sales staff time allocation in the (non-railway) office.

Me: "There's these remaining hours down here".
Him: "Yes, they're down to ... trade shows, client presentations, tenders ... um, what's a tender?".
Me: "It's what goes behind a steam locomotive ".
Him: "Eh ... what ... what are you talking about?".

Has it really gone from subsequent generations?

 

[Rescars]

Discussion with (I believe aged late 30-something) colleague about sales staff time allocation in the (non-railway) office.

Me: "There's these remaining hours down here".
Him: "Yes, they're down to ... trade shows, client presentations, tenders ... um, what's a tender?".
Me: "It's what goes behind a steam locomotive ".
Him: "Eh ... what ... what are you talking about?".

Has it really gone from subsequent generations?

Perhaps he wasn't captivated by Thomas' shed mates in his youth?

 

[JGurney]

I can easily imagine many people of that age not having heard of a 'tender' in the sense of a locomotive tender.
I am 20-odd years older and have only ever seen them in use first-hand on heritage railways. As a young child I was familiar with Southern electrics and occasionally saw other trains, but almost all were electric or diesels. I only once saw a steam loco in non-preservation service, a tank engine on the Swanage branch in the late 60's, so I never saw a tender in use. I knew what they were because of a childhood interest in trains combined with hearing older people talking of them occasionally plus their cropping up in older fiction dating back to when they were in common use. Combine being 20 years younger with not taking any notice of trains plus a tendancy to watch TV rather than read (by then) quite old books, and the concept of the loco tender might easily never come to someone's notice.

I was intrigued some time ago to find by accident how many words which had been used in childrens' literature in the 50's and 60's had become unfamiliar to teenagers of the early 2000's.
I was teaching an A-level class whose syllabus included 'changes in childhood over time'. One approach I took to that was getting the students to read some 'kidlit' from 40 to 50 years earlier and to look out for differences in childhood as depicted in those compared with modern childhood.
One unexpected side discovery was that a number of words used in the sources were unfamiliar. E.g. some students had trouble with a joke in a book where a child got confused between a sanitary inspector and an "insanitary spectre" as they did not recognise 'insanitary' or 'spectre'. Many did not know what a colander was (a boy pretending to be a spaceman had one on his head). References to a bus having a conductor and to a teacher lighting a fire in his room also puzzled many (one student familair only with central heating thought this meant the teacher was committing arson).
Other problematic terms included 'duckboards', 'obliging', 'transcribing', 'forbidding countenance' (the Headmaster's), and 'predecessor', all found in books originally intended for 10-year-olds.

 

[Halwynd]

A couple that I've had to explain to other enthusiasts:

When the 91s were introduced and ran blunt end first, a few railwaymen in my neck of the woods used to say they were running 'tender first' - always made me laugh, but some just couldn't get it.

Another was why 50021 used to be named Dave...

 

[43096]

Another was why 50021 used to be named Dave...

In similar vein, I’ll bet Class 31s being known as “Brians” is lost on an increasingly large number.

 

[Irascible]

Many did not know what a colander was

What do they call them now?

The teacher lighting a fire amused me - I must admit arson was the first thing I thought of too, and we had an open hearth coal fire in the 80s. Bus conductors are sorely missed, London Routemasters *were* rapid transit.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Question in Saturday's Guardian children's crossword
Blue tank engine (6)
The letters in the intersecting lights were _D_A_D.

 

[Calthrop]

Question in Saturday's Guardian children's crossword
Blue tank engine (6)
The letters in the intersecting lights were _D_A_D.

Good grief -- the Reverend must be turning in his grave.

 

[Dr_Paul]

For me, until I went to work and learnt about tender documents, a tender was the coal and water vehicle on a tender locomotive, but for older people -- and we are talking about really older ones here, as I'm 70 next year -- a tender was also a boat that took supplies to ships, and that was a rarely heard term even when I was a kid, although I suspect that it was still in use in the merchant and military navies.

I've also heard railway staff at Waterloo talking about 'the board' or 'the stick' in respect of the signal, although they've been colour-light signals for as long as I can remember.

I still instinctively call a road-roller a steam-roller, although they're all diesel these days and the only one I've ever seen in use (as opposed to a heritage show) was near Newtown in Wales 50 years back. A couple of years back, a nearby narrow road was blocked when a small road-roller had slipped off its transporter's ramp, and I told drivers in the ensuing traffic jam, who couldn't see what had caused the jam and asked me what was happening, that 'a steam-roller had fallen off a lorry'.

 

[CarltonA]

A woman was asking me about any hobbies I had. I replied that I had been involved in restoring a steam engine. Engine? she replied, do you mean a train? Seems she had never heard the expression. The woman was well into middle age, there was no point in trying to explain the difference.

 

[nw1]

I'm older than 30s, sadly (first election I could vote in was 1992, to give a rough idea of generation) and I'd never heard of this use of "tender"....

 

[Ashley Hill]

Footplate baffles many people. Q. “Where’s your driver?” A. “Up on the footplate”.

 

[nw1]

Footplate baffles many people. Q. “Where’s your driver?” A. “Up on the footplate”.

Footplate I do know.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

In the Clyde the small local ferries used to 'tender' to the Ocean liners (Cunard and Canadian Pacific) which called at The Tail of the Bank on the Liverpool to Canada run. Tail of the Bank was off Greenock and the tenders operated from Greenock Princes Pier (with boat trains from Glasgow St Enoch until the mid sixties) which did not have sufficient draught (one for the younger generation to confuse with draft?!) for the liners to come alongside.
Ironically Princes Pier now hosts a Cruise Terminal and Container Termianal where much larger ships come alongside. Tendering was no doubt much more widely practiced around the world, often for much smaller ships as well as liners.
Today's cruise ships use tenders to ferry convey pasengers ashore at ports where they cannot come alongside.

 

[Rescars]

ASLEF presumably still represents firemen!

 

[Cheshire Scot]

ASLEF presumably still represents firemen!

Which does raise the interesting point where some Preserved Railways have paid staff they may include Firemen who may be members of ASLEF thereby 'preserving' that element of the name ASLEF - does anyone still employ locomotive Engineers (other than in the workshop context)?

 

[Gloster]

In the Clyde the small local ferries used to 'tender' to the Ocean liners (Cunard and Canadian Pacific) which called at The Tail of the Bank on the Liverpool to Canada run. Tail of the Bank was off Greenock and the tenders operated from Greenock Princes Pier (with boat trains from Glasgow St Enoch until the mid sixties) which did not have sufficient draught (one for the younger generation to confuse with draft?!) for the liners to come alongside.
Ironically Princes Pier now hosts a Cruise Terminal and Container Termianal where much larger ships come alongside. Tendering was no doubt much more widely practiced around the world, often for much smaller ships as well as liners.
Today's cruise ships use tenders to ferry convey pasengers ashore at ports where they cannot come alongside.

It used to happen at Plymouth, with mails and passengers arriving from the US who urgently wanted to get to London being taken ashore and then hurried to London, although not so much after the Salisbury accident. The same happened, although less frequently, in the opposite direction. At Plymouth the GWR and LSWR both had tenders to meet the liners and get them to the quay as fast as possible. I think it also happened occasionally at Falmouth.

 

[WesternLancer]

For me, until I went to work and learnt about tender documents, a tender was the coal and water vehicle on a tender locomotive, but for older people -- and we are talking about really older ones here, as I'm 70 next year -- a tender was also a boat that took supplies to ships, and that was a rarely heard term even when I was a kid, although I suspect that it was still in use in the merchant and military navies.

I've also heard railway staff at Waterloo talking about 'the board' or 'the stick' in respect of the signal, although they've been colour-light signals for as long as I can remember.

I still instinctively call a road-roller a steam-roller, although they're all diesel these days and the only one I've ever seen in use (as opposed to a heritage show) was near Newtown in Wales 50 years back. A couple of years back, a nearby narrow road was blocked when a small road-roller had slipped off its transporter's ramp, and I told drivers in the ensuing traffic jam, who couldn't see what had caused the jam and asked me what was happening, that 'a steam-roller had fallen off a lorry'.

Cruise ships I’ve been on recently use tenders and call them such when port too small to get the cruise ship to a quay. So in that context it’s not uncommon today.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Cruise ships I’ve been on recently use tenders and call them such when port too small to get the cruise ship to a quay. So in that context it’s not uncommon today.

That is what I understand when I here tender. Going into a small port - you "tender" in off the ship. I quite enjoy it actually.

 

[Rescars]

We all know what happened to the RMS Titanic, but the White Star Line's tender SS Nomadic has been preserved and is the last White Star vessel in existence.

 

[JGurney]

What do they call them now?

Some knew them as 'drainers', others as sieves, and some boys claimed to have never seen such a thing.

 

[Snow1964]

We all know what happened to the RMS Titanic, but the White Star Line's tender SS Nomadic has been preserved and is the last White Star vessel in existence.

Was a tender at Cherbourg (Normandy), before port was enlarged. I am guessing name was a variation of Normandy ending in ic as was usual for their ships names.

Look on any modern cruise brochure or website and they refer to tender ports, and tenders. Not quite as much fun as on Expedition cruises where they use zodiacs as isn't even a port.

 

[Rescars]

Was a tender at Cherbourg (Normandy), before port was enlarged. I am guessing name was a variation of Normandy ending in ic as was usual for their ships names.

Look on any modern cruise brochure or website and they refer to tender ports, and tenders. Not quite as much fun as on Expedition cruises where they use zodiacs as isn't even a port.

Most White Star names ended in "ic" - Titanic, Olympic. Britannic, etc. Cunard preferred "ia", as in Lusitania, Mauritania - and Carpathia of course. Brand identity before the concept had been invented!

 

[norbitonflyer]

We all know what happened to the RMS Titanic, but the White Star Line's tender SS Nomadic has been preserved and is the last White Star vessel in existence.

Indeed, the "Nomadic" was used to tender 1st and 2nd Class passengers out from Cherbourg to the Titanic. Her sister ship, the "Traffic" took the 3rd class passengers. (The Traffic had an interesting WW2 - scuttled by the French to stop it falloing into german hands, refloated by the Germans, and finally torpedoed by the Royal Navy). Two more tenders ("America and Ireland") performed the same function at Queenstown (now Cobh) in Cork Harbour

 

[Irascible]

Tender is also in use for certain fire appliances, like the mobile water tanks or airport fire engines, but that's even more specific than either locomotive or maritime use...

 

[DerekC]

Reminds me of the very old joke. "Why couldn't the railway engine sit down"? "Because it had a tender behind". Sounds like it would fall completely flat with my grandchildren!

 

[Bayum]

What do they call them now?

The teacher lighting a fire amused me - I must admit arson was the first thing I thought of too, and we had an open hearth coal fire in the 80s. Bus conductors are sorely missed, London Routemasters *were* rapid transit.

Sieve. Strainer. Holey helmet.
I’m very aware they are different utensils just names I’ve heard them confused with.

 

[12LDA28C]

Which does raise the interesting point where some Preserved Railways have paid staff they may include Firemen who may be members of ASLEF thereby 'preserving' that element of the name ASLEF - does anyone still employ locomotive Engineers (other than in the workshop context)?

Plenty of Engineers in the US and Canada where the term is still used to refer to train drivers

 

[Rescars]

A woman was asking me about any hobbies I had. I replied that I had been involved in restoring a steam engine. Engine? she replied, do you mean a train? Seems she had never heard the expression. The woman was well into middle age, there was no point in trying to explain the difference.

I guess you could have crossed the Atlantic and tried "iron horse"!

 

[stuu]

I'm not sure tender would ever have been all that common a term, you would surely have had to be interested in railways in the first place. I know that was more common previously when there were less distractions, but you would have to be ~65+ to have any serious recollections of working steam. The generational shift would have been a long time ago I would have thought