George Osborne in first class with standard ticket?

[ANorthernGuard]

So we have Labour bashing Tories, Tories Bashing Labour, everyone blaming Bob Crow for everything under the sun, Rail staff thinking can't see what the issue is and the Daily Fail having a field day...just another day on the forums lol

 

[Tibbs]

Well you should be at the platform in plenty of time...

And if they don't announce the platform until late as per this thread?

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=73174

Should I walk through 1st or miss my train?

 

[jon0844]

Can you always tell where first class is going to be? What about trains in reverse formation (I accept it's rare on Intercity trains, but do all stations clearly mark where FC is?).

Even on a recent trip to Stratford International on a 395, with a buggy, we got caught out as on our return trip we got to the stop board so we were at the front (where the wheelchair spaces were) and - oh - the train was in reverse. Not quite the same as FC obviously, but how as anyone to know which way around the train would be?

Anyway, back to Mr Osborne, it seems the papers are still going with the sitting in first with a standard class ticket (as if refusing to pay) and 'The Great Train Snobbery' which is a bit of a slur on all the people who sit in first class for a range of reasons.

 

[tbtc]

This is so trivial its irrelevant - if someone buys or upgrades to first and sits there fine.

To be honest it makes sense for senior politicians (i.e. cabinet and shadow cabinet) to travel first anyway so they can work or spread papers about as necessary. Its one of the main reasons I perfer first (that and its easier to get a good sleep!).

It seems like a very efficient train manager acting sensibly and would he have even recognised George Osborne? He's not especially distinctive looking.

Anyway its a good job it wasn't Ed Balls - he'd have wanted to borrow the money for the ticket and then spent it on something that was of no value to anyone then blamed someone else for his own mistake!

It depends on whether it was "someone on board a busy train wants to upgrade to a First Class ticket" (a non-story) or whether it was "person with Standard Class ticket goes to sit in First Class without having obtained that upgrade".

However the fact that you then go on to make a petty point about Ed Balls suggests that you're not too interested in balance - this is what I mean about some people taking sides.

Will be interesting to see Labour spin this one.. Wonder if they'll have the same success they did with AM..?

I guess Labour will play this one slowly - they're not going to get Osbourne to resign over a trivial thing like this, but they will drag it out again and again whenever he's perceived to be making cuts.

Some political stories have a very short shelf life in which the person concerned either sinks or swims (e.g. the News Of The World finding out about an affair). Osbourne will obviously keep his job here, but Labour will probably try to dig this story up come the next election ("Osbourne wanted you to pay more for a hot pasty but thinks he's entitled to a free upgrade" - that kind of petty point scoring)

The very same user did exactly the same thing on the first West Coast thread, regarding the winners.. You get used to it

True - this is one reason I gave up football forums - they were full of people claiming to be informed but who weren't prepared to tell us anything.

Well, if he's paid up on request (or someone else has on his behalf) then it's the end of the matter, isn't it?

As long as he was honest about the situation (getting an upgrade before sitting in First Class) then I've got no problem.

If Virgin have got these 390s where almost half of the coaches are First Class then it's sensible for the Chancellor of the Exchequer (one of the most important people in the country) to use First Class - I've no problem with that.

The cost of a First Class upgrade is trivial compared to the cost of UK borrowing etc. I would have a problem if he was trying to get away without paying for the upgrade or going to sit in First Class without having upgraded beforehand. Big difference.

 

[northwichcat]

To be honest it makes sense for senior politicians (i.e. cabinet and shadow cabinet) to travel first anyway so they can work or spread papers about as necessary. Its one of the main reasons I perfer first (that and its easier to get a good sleep!).

What's wrong with coach A - the quiet quiet in standard class? Or do MPs want to make loud phone calls which would get them thrown out of the quiet coach, in which case they would also be disturbing First Class passengers who wanted to work on the train.

In the picture that was posted it looks like Osborne was relaxing and watching some amusing on a netbook.

 

[Geezertronic]

In the picture that was posted it looks like Osborne was relaxing and watching some amusing on a netbook.

One of many unfounded statements on this thread

 

[northwichcat]

So we have Labour bashing Tories, Tories Bashing Labour, everyone blaming Bob Crow for everything under the sun, Rail staff thinking can't see what the issue is and the Daily Fail having a field day...just another day on the forums lol

If you were the ticket inspector and had a minor disagreement about how much extra someone with the wrong ticket should pay would you report it and if they did pay the extra? I imagine you'd say no, so as far as your employer is concerned no problem has been reported and you sold them either a new ticket or an excess.

On the other hand if you were a journalist and you found it was the Chancellor who had purchased the wrong ticket, would you keep quiet about it? I imagine not - someone with so much power not spotting a basic error until after they had boarded is not good.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

One of many unfounded statements on this thread

I described a picture as it appears. As we don't have CCTV coverage of the whole journey available to check to see if he did actually do much work, the statement I made is more founded than anyone saying he wanted to travel in First Class to get some work done.

 

[Geezertronic]

I described a picture as it appears. As we don't have CCTV coverage of the whole journey available to check to see if he did actually do much work, the statement I made is more founded than anyone saying he wanted to travel in First Class to get some work done.

You described the picture as you wanted to interpret it, lets be honest here...

He could have been watching porn, or sharing a conversation with his aide about the presence of the person who took the photo. I don't particularly like the man but the Daily Mail version by some on this thread it seems is catching.

 

[northwichcat]

Can you always tell where first class is going to be? What about trains in reverse formation (I accept it's rare on Intercity trains, but do all stations clearly mark where FC is?).

On most platforms of intermediate stations that Virgin use there are indicators of where each coach letter will be and which are first and which are standard. If the formation is reversed to the usual there will usually be both a PA announcement and an indication on the platform LED displays.

With other operators like XC and TPE this isn't the case so passengers can only guess which way around the train will stop. If I have a seat reservation I usually wait around where the middle of the train should be when it stops, then move along to the right part of the platform between the train approaching and the doors being released (assuming the reservation isn't in the middle)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You described the picture as you wanted to interpret it, lets be honest here...

He could have been watching porn, or sharing a conversation with his aide about the presence of the person who took the photo. I don't particularly like the man but the Daily Mail version by some on this thread it seems is catching.

Like I said no-one has any evidence that he did 1 minute of work on the train, yet numerous people are defending him travelling First Class for the purpose of doing work.

I think it's actually the Daily Express style posts on her that we need to ignore i.e. the ones that support the Tories even when there's no evidence in their favour.

 

[Oswyntail]

Yep, we have a right to know if we've directly paid for it.

We may well have a right to know - but I asked is it relevant?What difference does it actually make to the story (other than casting Osborne in a better light because he originally paid to travel standard, thus saving taxpayers money)

Is there any proof he was working?

Is there any proof he was not? Just because he isn't fashioning artefacts out of lumps of raw metal doesn't mean he isn't. Though obviously, as another poster has implied, if he was actually caught smiling, that proves he can't have been working.

That would be Mitchell after an impeccably timed resignation (that the BBC swallowed - those accusing it of left wing bias take note)

It must be really awful having so much paranoia that even this is seen as a conspiracy. Who is to say that the Osborne story was not manufactured to discredit the Labour spinsters in preparation for the Mitchell resignation. Or perhaps it was chance timing. It doesn't make a tad of difference. Both are stories of manufactured outrage in a world where actual intellectual opposition to Government has been abandoned in favour of celebrity bickering.

If you were the ticket inspector and had a minor disagreement about how much extra someone with the wrong ticket should pay would you report it and if they did pay the extra? ...

The most plausible explanation - and one that all involved parties have agreed happened - is that he sought to upgrade a Standard to a First ticket, because Standard was too full. A legitimate transaction. Not a "wrong" ticket. No story. Move on.

 

[tbtc]

The most plausible explanation - and one that all involved parties have agreed happened - is that he sought to upgrade a Standard to a First ticket, because Standard was too full. A legitimate transaction. Not a "wrong" ticket. No story. Move on.

Which is absolutely fine, as long as he offered to pay for the upgrade before going to sit in First Class

 

[northwichcat]

Yes see the NRCoC:

Although it is never enforced on those units where first class is in the middle of the set or because of the joining of 2 units and it would be quite difficult/ ridiculous to enforce in such circumstances.

I believe FGW have been known to get upity about people walking through first on their HST to find a toilet for example.

To me that doesn't sound like you can't walk through. Standing to me reads as not sat down or moving around. If you're walking then you're not standing.
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Program editor of the ITV Evening News has tweeted today that an announcement on a Virgin Trains Euston-Glasgow service asked all passengers to sit in the right carriage including any MPs on board.

 

[Oswyntail]

Which is absolutely fine, as long as he offered to pay for the upgrade before going to sit in First Class

Is that actually the rule? If it is, I have broken it on several occasions (and it's daft!)

 

[northwichcat]

Is that actually the rule? If it is, I have broken it on several occasions (and it's daft!)

Yes unless there is an upgrade on board policy which there is on Virgin but at weekends only. Otherwise it's like boarding with an off-peak ticket in the peak - you should have upgraded at the ticket office before you boarded, if there was an open ticket office.

 

[Oswyntail]

Yes unless there is an upgrade on board policy which there is on Virgin but at weekends only. Otherwise it's like boarding with an off-peak ticket in the peak - you should have upgraded at the ticket office before you boarded, if there was an open ticket office.

So what if - as has been suggested - you get on intending to travel in standard without having made a reservation, but find there are no suitable seats so wish to upgrade? Regardless of who the passengers are, I would say it is quite reasonable to do as this chappie did, and I would bet my cats' breakfast that there are no announcements or posters setting out the "correct" procedure. Not quite the same as the off-peak analogy, where you do know before you board the train that your ticket is invalid.

 

[tbtc]

Is that actually the rule? If it is, I have broken it on several occasions (and it's daft!)

I'm happy to be corrected, but my understanding was that you shouldn't go and sit in First Class if you didn't have a valid ticket - if you have a Standard Class ticket and fancy upgrading yourself then you should presumably sort the upgrade out before you plonk down on a First Class seat?

Am not trying to make a political point here.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes unless there is an upgrade on board policy which there is on Virgin but at weekends only. Otherwise it's like boarding with an off-peak ticket in the peak - you should have upgraded at the ticket office before you boarded, if there was an open ticket office.

That's the way that I understood it

 

[ainsworth74]

Which is absolutely fine, as long as he offered to pay for the upgrade before going to sit in First Class

Yes unless there is an upgrade on board policy which there is on Virgin but at weekends only. Otherwise it's like boarding with an off-peak ticket in the peak - you should have upgraded at the ticket office before you boarded, if there was an open ticket office.

I do not believe this is correct. With a few exceptions (most notably if you're travelling from a PF station on TOC that has a PF scheme) you're perfectly entitled to purchase a first class excess on board and there is, as far as I'm aware, no requirement to first speak to the guard. You can sit in first class on a standard class ticket as long as you pay the upgrade once the guard reaches you.

Also jcollins I do not believe you are correct with you statement about peak and off-peak travel. Unless you hold an advance I believe you are entitled to excess from an Off-Peak or Super Off-Peak ticket to Anytime or Off-Peak ticket on board without penalty. I also have a feeling that you can't be charged a penalty fare in these circumstances but I'm not 100% on that so hopefully someone else will confirm.

 

[caliwag]

mmm...yawn!:cry:

 

[fgwrich]

So we have Labour bashing Tories, Tories Bashing Labour, everyone blaming Bob Crow for everything under the sun, Rail staff thinking can't see what the issue is and the Daily Fail having a field day...just another day on the forums lol

Shoosh! We can't be seen as up with the tory toffs, let's remove the seat antimacassers so it looks like we're travelling standard, afterall we are Labour - The Nations Party...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ose-council-estate-seen-travelling-class.html

I wonder how many time's this has actually happened with either partys? Still, all good material for the next series of 'The Thick Of It'.

 

[tbtc]

I do not believe this is correct. With a few exceptions (most notably if you're travelling from a PF station on TOC that has a PF scheme) you're perfectly entitled to purchase a first class excess on board and there is, as far as I'm aware, no requirement to first speak to the guard. You can sit in first class on a standard class ticket as long as you pay the upgrade once the guard reaches you

Fair enough - I certainly wouldn't go and sit in First Class without having sorted out the correct ticket first - without knowing the rules

Shoosh! We can't be seen as up with the tory toffs, let's remove the seat antimacassers so it looks like we're travelling standard, afterall we are Labour - The Nations Party...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ose-council-estate-seen-travelling-class.html

I wonder how many time's this has actually happened with either partys? Still, all good material for the next series of 'The Thick Of It'.

As has been discussed on this thread, this seems to be standard practice - there's obviously a lot more room in First Class for an interview to be conducted - seems to work for both "sides" to pretend they are in Standard

 

[ainsworth74]

Fair enough - I certainly wouldn't go and sit in First Class without having sorted out the correct ticket first - without knowing the rules

Oh quite, if you're unsure than caution is always wise. But in this case I don't think Osborne was in the wrong to just sit in first class and wait for the guard to come to him.

 

[SS4]

One of many unfounded statements on this thread

It's no more unfounded than the assumption he was working :roll:

 

[northwichcat]

I do not believe this is correct. With a few exceptions (most notably if you're travelling from a PF station on TOC that has a PF scheme) you're perfectly entitled to purchase a first class excess on board and there is, as far as I'm aware, no requirement to first speak to the guard. You can sit in first class on a standard class ticket as long as you pay the upgrade once the guard reaches you.

Your opinion seems to contradict NRCoC which states that you must have a first class ticket or permission off train staff before you sit in first class, unless there is an operator policy stating that you can upgrade on board. Penalty Fares don't come in to it.

Also jcollins I do not believe you are correct with you statement about peak and off-peak travel. Unless you hold an advance I believe you are entitled to excess from an Off-Peak or Super Off-Peak ticket to Anytime or Off-Peak ticket on board without penalty. I also have a feeling that you can't be charged a penalty fare in these circumstances but I'm not 100% on that so hopefully someone else will confirm.

Any passenger who is found travelling without a valid ticket for their entire journey is liable to be issued with a Penalty Fare of £20 by Merseyrail Ticket Inspectors plus the fare to the destination station if continuing their journey.

So if what you say is correct then Merseyrail are making misleading claims as an off-peak ticket is not valid at peak times.

 

[Flamingo]

Whilst far from being a Tory supporter, this whole storm in a tea-cup seems to be nothing more than some mis-informed tweeting from a Journo who was using the truth as a convenient starting point for a story.

It's basically summarised as "man in suit upgrades to first class, may or may not have had a grumble about price".

 

[merlodlliw]

Agree with you Flamingo


It's basically summarised as "man in suit upgrades to first class, may or may not have had a grumble about price".[/QUOTE]

If the Jurno was a free lance, he would pocket a lot for selling his story & tipping off others. We seem to be getting to a state of "Osbourne seen using the toilet on the train"

My how the WAG EXPRESS would love to see upgrades

 

[Flamingo]

If the Jurno was a free lance, he would pocket a lot for selling his story & tipping off others.

Exactly...

 

[northwichcat]

If the Jurno was a free lance, he would pocket a lot for selling his story & tipping off others.

The journalist was female and contracted to ITV Granada. She was also not actually not supposed to be working yesterday and travelling for leisure purposes.

 

[tbtc]

Whilst far from being a Tory supporter, this whole storm in a tea-cup seems to be nothing more than some mis-informed tweeting from a Journo who was using the truth as a convenient starting point for a story.

It's basically summarised as "man in suit upgrades to first class, may or may not have had a grumble about price".

So, open question - as someone who deals with this kind of thing day in day out, if I were on your train sat in First Class with a Standard Class ticket (having not sought you out beforehand to upgrade) would I just have to pay the difference between the two ticket prices (with no "penalty" for having sat in a First Class seat without a First Class ticket)?

 

[maniacmartin]

. It was agreed that the Chancellor would remain in First Class and an amount of £189.50 was paid by the aide to cover the upgrade for Mr Osborne and his PA.

This is worded very badly! I read this as saying that a total of £189.50 was paid to cover the upgrade of both Mr Osborne and his PA, ie £94.75 each. I suspect this is not what VT intended to say.

 

[Flamingo]

So, open question - as someone who deals with this kind of thing day in day out, if I were on your train sat in First Class with a Standard Class ticket (having not sought you out beforehand to upgrade) would I just have to pay the difference between the two ticket prices (with no "penalty" for having sat in a First Class seat without a First Class ticket)?

Absolutely. It's only if you were sat / standing in First Class with a STD class ticket and DIDN'T want to pay the difference that we would start to fall out...