Getting Leigh (Gtr Manchester) back on the rail network

[Gathursty]

Any ideas?

It's quite a big town and there's trackbed in the area which I've walked on which goes for quite a few miles so that's part of the job done.

I'm sure this has been discussed many times over on here.

Looking at Google maps makes me consider a direct link from Walkden to Leigh using the relevant derelict sections of lines around.

Also, I guess you could create another link from Wigan Stations to Walkden along this new branch by using the old line near Bickershaw and through Platt Bridge to the WCML (junction where the Merseyrail City Line through St Helens Central branches off) however this wouldn't really be of much benefit, more of a completeness thing.

I think it would be good to get Leigh back on the network as there's a large enough population there.

With Manchester's Metrolink considering expanding in this direction, it could also be argued that Leigh would be much better linked up to Manchester this way instead.

What do people think?

 

[WatcherZero]

Best chance would probably be a spur if the Atherton line was ever converted to tram or tram-train operation. Theres also the distant possibility that a decade or more in the future the busway could be converted to rail if there was money around and passenger loads justified it.

Theres a campaign group to build a spur from the south to the Liverpool-Manchester line but it would be impractical really with it being a express line and post 2013 filled with Liverpool-Manchester, Wigan-Manchester and Manchester-Scotland fasts. It would be hard to persuade one of those services to take a 10-15m detour up and down a spur just to give Leigh a service.

 

[185]

I think with so many people owning cars, and the East Lancs Road being 400yds away, the first step should be a Leigh Parkway station on the Chat Moss (Manchester-Liverpool) Line at near Culcheth (facing Atherleigh Way) or at Glazebury (on the Warrinton Road). This is a fast, short term plan, a quick fix, while the wrangling over the proper heavy rail link off the Atherton Line can be considered.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think that it is unfortunate that Leigh is no longer on the National Rail network. The Bolton to Leigh railway line was historically one of the first railway lines to have been constructed. Leigh is the only large town in the Greater Manchester region to be without rail facilities. Yet all "future plannning" has had to offer Leigh over the last 20 years is the "guided busway" proposal. I suppose these "planners" wanting to trial such a system chose Leigh specifically as there were no pre-existing rail facilities.

The population centered upon Leigh would certainly have passenger loadings potential for a new rail line, provided that this line would offer a link to places such as Wigan, Bolton or Manchester, which are all travel-to-work areas for many Leigh residents.

 

[Nym]

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF&msa=0&msid=208537899835423960920.0004a52fabee9f1011216

That is all...

Heh

PS: I's hhave a couple more stations on the Chat Moss route for Leigh Parkway aswell, as 185 said, that first, then an electrified line to Leigh as show above, 2tph Victoria - Leigh, of course we'd need improvments at Salford Crescent aswell, but not un-doable.

Stopping 2 or 3tph at Leigh South Parkway...

The Wigan - Manchester via Chat Moss 2tph would call Wigan NW - Leigh Parkway - Paitcroft - Eccles IMO...

 

[Gareth]

Probably a slightly bonkers idea but how about a spur that branches off the Chat Moss into or near Leigh then spurs back onto the Chat Moss, in a semi-circular kind of way. The stoppers could use this and the fasts could continue on the old alignment. It'd also effectively create a place for the fasts too.

 

[Nym]

very bonkers, would need a new pway for little benifit, as marked on my map only needs one new bridge

 

[Gareth]

Thank you for the feedback.

 

[Nym]

having platforms on loops on the chat moss alignment would be good, it could use the current perminant way.. Ofsetting the lack of town centre location

 

[WatcherZero]

Wouldnt be much of an improvement, Atherton is 4.2km from centre of town, Chat Moss line is 3.2km.

 

[Gathursty]

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF&msa=0&msid=208537899835423960920.0004a52fabee9f1011216

That is all...

They say a picture is worth a *ahem* thread starter. That's brilliant!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

They say a picture is worth a *ahem* thread starter. That's brilliant!

I wonder why the projected line missed out the high-density area of Higher Folds on its final stretch to Leigh?

Still, Jim Stones Coaches and First Manchester would have been relieved.

 

[WatcherZero]

Most of the houses probably built after the line closed.

 

[Nym]

they where, as where most houses close to the east lancs. A station on the chat moss nr leigh would be more as a p+r than anything else. Better close to winrick ln with an upgrade of that route to D2

 

[lancastrian]

I gave the following comment in a post on the 16th December 2010, I still think it is very valid.

Well many interstong suggestions, but there are only two realistic options to restore the Railway to Leigh (yet another daft closure decision brought about by the supposed need to build a motorway, M602, all to save the cost of a bridge near Eccles).

The simplest and cheapest, would be to reopen Kenyon Junction stataion as Leigh Parkway, the location is very clear of clutter, plus come 2015 it will be on an electrified line to both Manchester & Liverpool. The old siding space is large enough for a decent car park, all it needs to make it easy to get to Leigh, is for the Atherleigh Way extension, the Lowton St. Mary's bypas is extended along the remaining old track bed from where it meets the East Lancs Road, to where it meets the B5207 Wilton Lane, with an access to the new Car Park just before it crosses the railway line at Broseley Bridge.

The second and dearer option is to build a new link from the Atherton line, from just west of Walden Station, just after is crosses Newearth Road, it would then run paralel to that road until it meets the old Eccles to Wigan trackbed at Ellenbrook, (this is an old collery railway trackbed that could be reused) a station could be put in here at Ellenbrook. It would then follow the old trackbed to Tyldesley, with new station for Mosley coomon as it goes under Mosley Common Road, and to a new, reopened station at Tyldesley, it would then follow the old Tyldesley to Leigh trackbed until it could possibly reach past Holden Road, almost to the old station site near East Bond Street. It is possible to have access from East Bond Street or from Platt Fold Street. There is an industrial estate on this site, so there is road access and a potential site for a car park, it is about a 5 minute walk from Leigh Town Hall. It would cost more but would bring the railway right back into Leigh.

I also made this comment in respnse to the projected branch from the Chat Moss line on the 8th January 2011.

Well I looked at this document and it was interesting. However what I cannot understand is the route to the Liverpool & Manchester line. The curves to get the route on to the old Great Central line just north of the East Lancs Road and the trianglular juntion with the Liverpool & Manchester, are the sort of sharpness I would expect from a light rail route, not for a heavey rail route. It also seems to travel at least 2 - 3 times the distance of the direct route to Kenyon Junction. If this route is used, it makes more sense to rebuild to Kenyon Juncion Station, with a seperate platform for the leigh route, so that trains to Manchester can easily reverse or continue to Liverpool.

However if the Leigh Station is to be on the Pennington Station site, it will be to far from the centre of Leigh and of no value to those who live to the north of Leigh. This is a reasonable idea, but it would be much easier to extrend the Atherleigh Way through to Kenyon Junction on the far side of the East Lancs Road. Not only would it be cheaper, there is ample space in the old sorting sidings for a decent Car Park.

A branch from the ex L&Y Atherton line makes more sense and the new line can get nearer to the centre of Leigh, almost onto the old Station site.

Just my view.

 

[Nym]

Yep, all very valid views, and in response to them:

Station branching from walkden into Leigh should be the long term asperation, with the trackbeds protected from development now and a plan to have this re-connected by 2019, with the line electrified at 25KV AC when built, and the Victoira - Wigan lines being electrified at this time with headway improvments to allow up to 6tph to Walkden and 4tph to Wigan, making all of the lines out of West Manchester (Not counting the CLC in this case) electrified suburban lines, with the capacity gap now being Victoria Station. But 12tph between Crescent and Victoira should be possible with more platforms provided at Crescent. 6tph to Bolton and 6tph to Walkden, 3tph continuing via Atherton and 2 or 3 to Leigh.

The station branching off the Chat Moss route, shouldn't be branching off the Chat Moss route, it should be a station ON the Chat Moss route. With electrification hopfully bringing regular Wigan - Paitcroft - Victoria services, there will be up to 4tph stoppers on the route through here, 2tph Liverpool and 2tph Wigan.

The station should be provided with some road improvments, as the business case for only serving Leigh by P&R is weak to say the least. If it where a combination of a station, with platforms on loops at Keynton, with an upgrade and/or diversion of Winwick lane A579 to the A580 East Lancs Road further East, as either a D2AP or S2WAP grade road, and sign the new station as a Park And Ride for Manchester from the M6 and A580, and provide a Free, yes Free (Or Rail Ticket discounted) car park.
Lostock Parkway has proven that this model can work, but without the road upgrades, and I rearly see Horwich Parkway with any spaces (that needs a much better carpark and turnback siding with electrification but thats another matter).

Assuming the 319s come to Northern, I'd be invisaging peak fasts calling at this station, aswell as 3tph from Wigan. If this where provided with the proper press coverage it could solve a lot of problems for Manchester, Wigan and Liverpoool. I'm thinking a car park on the scale of 2000+ spaces. Buses could be provided to Leigh until the Leigh Town Centre station would be provided. then these buses scaled back.

Oh and PS: You won't hear me say this often, but the rest of the Atherleigh Way alignment needs to be completed as a D2AP Road. With as much of the A579 as possible upgraded to D2AP between the M6 and M61, since theres little chance of the M58 being finished (no matter how much it's needed) or it's cousin the A5225...

PPS:

D2 = Dual Carrageway, Two Lane
S2 = Single Carrageway, Two Lanes
-W Suffix = Wide (Usually former S3 routes)
-AP Suffix = Motorwayesk featrues, All Purpouse

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

However if the Leigh Station is to be on the Pennington Station site, it will be to far from the centre of Leigh and of no value to those who live to the north of Leigh. This is a reasonable idea, but it would be much easier to extrend the Atherleigh Way through to Kenyon Junction on the far side of the East Lancs Road. Not only would it be cheaper, there is ample space in the old sorting sidings for a decent Car Park.

A branch from the ex L&Y Atherton line makes more sense and the new line can get nearer to the centre of Leigh, almost onto the old Station site.

I think that I have followed your line projections. Your line, as described, would bisect the districts of Lilford and Westleigh, then on through the district of Pennington. Would you have any intermediate stations in those areas, which are quite well populated?

The idea of car parking in the area of the old sorting sidings would make good sense.

 

[lancastrian]

I think that I have followed your line projections. Your line, as described, would bisect the districts of Lilford and Westleigh, then on through the district of Pennington. Would you have any intermediate stations in those areas, which are quite well populated?

The idea of car parking in the area of the old sorting sidings would make good sense.

I was not proposing a line from the Chat Moss line, I was responding to an earlier post about a rail line to Leigh. I propsed a line from the Manchester to Wigan line from just after Walkden following an old colliery line until it reaches the old LNWR line that was closed in 1969 and then following that route to Leigh. The station being near the old leigh Station. I proposed stations at Tyldesley, Mosley Common & Ellenbrook.

I know one thing though, the only realistic opption in the short term is to reopen Kenyon Junction as leigh Parkway, with the Atherleigh Way being extended from the East lancs Road, along the old trackbed to Wilton Lane, with a roundabout so that the link to the carpark in the old goods yard can be built.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I propsed a line from the Manchester to Wigan line from just after Walkden following an old colliery line until it reaches the old LNWR line that was closed in 1969 and then following that route to Leigh. The station being near the old leigh Station. I proposed stations at Tyldesley, Mosley Common & Ellenbrook.

Tyldesley station : This will be the first station as your line comes off the line in the Walkden area. There will be quite a passenger catchment area, as the town itself covers quite an extensive land area with the population evenly spread. Blackmoor and Astley are in the southern part of the area.

Mosley Common station : This area has changed beyond recogition in the areas where the housing developments took place since the 1980's and many new "executive" homes were built not far from the old railway embankment in the City Road area. You will find that there are many two-car families now in this part of the area.

Ellenbrook station : The biggest passenger base here will be from the large social housing estate at Little Hulton.

Leigh really needs an interchange with a main bus and station complex to obtain the best from a co-ordinated transport link. Leigh comes under the jurisdiction of Wigan in Greater Manchester and I am sure that this part of their area would receive enthusiastic backing normally.

 

[Nym]

Well, you could pave over Spinning Gate Shopping Centre and get a nice bus interchange.

In a world outside of mine (where commercial developments are entirely expendable), would rail platforms on the oppersite side of the shopping centre, in it's car park, with a short walk between the bus station and rail platforms be entirely stupid?

It would be possible to get buses and trains under one roof if you swapped the car park and bus station around.

Closing Chapel St to normal traffic, two way bus access from that direction, and place a west facing sliproad on Spinning Jenny Way (Buses only), so buses can run directly in and out onto Spinning Jenny way, or loop around using Bradsawgate.

The line would need to be on a viaduct to clear E Bond St, Lord St, Bond St, and Chapel St, or closing some of these to traffic and putting Lord St on a bridge, with the rest on Level Crossings.

It would make it all a lot more expensive though, but it's somthing that should be priced, and put to a public consultation.

Option 1: Leigh Railway Station as in the map shown
Option 2: In the shopping centre car park, but it would possibly double the project costs.

Oh and PS: If the line was designed and run as 25KV OHL (As I think it should be, another diesel island is just a silly idea, wire it before it opens) Then loads of station stops on the route would be fantastic, and it should be set up to run as an 8*23m line. The rest of the Atherton loop isn't at the moment, but it will be eventually, so future proof now.

PPS: I'd have a fair few (3 or 4) platforms or some sidings at Leigh, it would be a convenient place to dump off peak stock.

I really need to stop editing:

Stations if electrified route: (All with car parking)

Leigh
Higher Folds
Tyldesley
Tyldesley East (Big Car Park)
Walkden South

The only one I'd miss out if it wasn't electrified would be Walkden South, but it should be, the result I'd have then would be having wires from Lostock to Wigan aswell, and 3rd Rail from Wigan to Kirby. Then both Manchester - Stockport services sent via Atherton and everything else round the area would be electric. But only if Lostock - Wigan is completed, until then, a Southport should be via Bolton, is well used from what I can tell.

 

[WatcherZero]

8 car platforms at the terminus makes sense but I cant really see a need for more than 4 car platforms along its length (with perhaps passive provision for 6) It just wouldnt get those passenger numbers when you consider the length of the route.

 

[lancastrian]

8 car platforms at the terminus makes sense but I cant really see a need for more than 4 car platforms along its length (with perhaps passive provision for 6) It just wouldnt get those passenger numbers when you consider the length of the route.

If you have 8 car platforms at any planned terminus, then if you are building platforms for intermediate stations they too should be 8 car length. Otherwise you might save a little money to build shorter platforms to start with, but as you need to extend them (and you will) just see the difficulties with the Valley Lines new contrucsion on the Aberdare & Ebbw Vale lines. The result as you continue to extend platforms as traffic expands, the costs turn out to increase dramatically. Plus the time spent building extended platforms, and the blockages to trains required, each time you extend platforms, the cost increase greatly. Sometimes the cost can be almost double what it would have cost, in real terms if you built them the full length at the start.

 

[Nym]

Could we call it even and say 4*23m with provision for 8*23m, with 2 or 3 8*23m at turminus.

EDIT:

After seeing the next post, I'm still going to stick with 8*23m platforms, how much more would a bit more platform cost?

(I'd also be increasing the size of other platfoms between Walkden and Victoria, including Salford Crescent upto 8 cars long, re-locating it to the north of the junction, with 4 or 6 platforms)

Possibly re-instating 3 and 4 at Central aswell..

The idea at the moment being running anything up to 2x319s at peak times, or 317, 315, maybe even a new build.

I'd still be looking at new P&R Stations wherever possible.

 

[WatcherZero]

Terminals with platforms double the length is common sense, it allows two trains to occupy the same platform. I cant believe your suggesting 8x23m trains with a 6tph service though (3 to Wigan and 3 to Manchester though all would travel the full length of the spur naturally), (assuming 319 capacity 300) do you really think theres a market for 3600 people an hour? In a four hour morning peak thats the capacity for 25% of the population of the entire area! Most optimistic rail travel projections are usually in the order of 10% opting to take rail transport to a destination.

Even if only two were double length in the morning peak its still a massive oversupply of capacity.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Can I bring another matter into the equation now that the line so far is becoming clearer. How would a southern extension of the route descibed so far, to the line from Liverpool to Manchester, as then offering THROUGH services?

Just a thought.

 

[yorksrob]

Can I bring another matter into the equation now that the line so far is becoming clearer. How would a southern extension of the route descibed so far, to the line from Liverpool to Manchester, as then offering THROUGH services?

Just a thought.

That would be the ideal solution as some existing through services could be re-routed.

Unfortunately there appears to have been some construction South of Leigh station, so either demolition would be required or the whole thing would have to be moved out of the town centre, which would make it less convenient.

 

[Nym]

I wasn't suggesting 3tph to Manchester and 3tph to Wigan...

8 car platforms make sense for future growth, and if big car parks are being provided, modal shifts are a real possibility.

I was suggesting, out of Victoria (To the Wigan area)

2tph Vic - Paitcroft - Wigan Electric Operated
2tph Vic - Walkden - Leigh Electric
2tph Vic - Walkden - Wigan Diesel (Extended to Southport / Kirby)
2tph Vic - Bolton - Wigan Electric

If the line where extended from Tyldesley to Wigan this could provide new through opportunities to Liverpool via St Helens avoiding Wigan, but I don't personally see the point in that...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Can I query a point here? When GMPTE were in existance, there was talk of a guided busway for this area. Would that have been because Leigh was the only large town in Greater Manchester without a heavy rail facility and this type of project would have been a cheaper option?

Were there any discussions with any European manufacturers of the vehicles and associated roadways infrastructure when this project was being put forward for consideration?

 

[WatcherZero]

Rail route was costed at 90m, guided busway was costed at 70m, the area has quite good bus links but there prone to getting stuck in traffic in the town centres and along the East Lancs, the guided bus way uses the former rail line to provide a bypass so the buses could skip most of the heavy traffic. And yes the busway has started construction.

 

[yorksrob]

God, they haven't started the damned thing have they.

A half arsed half baked "solution" for the wrong problem for want of 20 million. It would be better if they left it until they could afford something worthwhile. GMPTE, or whatever it's calling itself these days seems to be losing the plot.