Getting off train early on Advanced ticket

[LexyBoy]

My money is on: barriers open at Waterloo, no sign of the guard, barriers open at Soton.

As a general rule, if you ask a bureaucracy if you can do something, it's easier for the bureaucracy to say 'no'. Nobody gets sacked for saying 'no'.

"As I am using this combination of tickets for my journey from London to Southampton, am I permitted to double back between Brockenhurst and Southampton?"

 

[Peter Mugridge]

My money is on: barriers open at Waterloo, no sign of the guard, barriers open at Soton.

I have never found the barriers open at Waterloo...

 

[dmackay42]

Thanks to everyone who has offered their advice and comments.....what a can of worms

It comes down to 2 options....just getting off at Southampton and going through the barriers with the Anytime ticket, or letting the train guard know the problem, showing him the tickets, and obtaining an instruction on whether to either get off or stay on the train, just to return on the Anytime ticket at the next stop.

At the end of the day, the latter option gives me an extra 40 minutes sighseeing the area !
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Below is a copy and paste out of SWT's T&Cs for Advance tickets and the "source" of my quandry.

Break of journey


You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station except to change to/from connecting trains as shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary.


The last 4 words "other valid travel itinerary"....would this not qualify as a definition of me being in possession the 2 Anytime tickets from Brockenhurst to Southampton?

If this is the case, the T&C would be that we could end our journey at any intermediate station, ie Southampton.. without breaking any T&Cs.

Is this the meaning of "valid travel itinerary"?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
As regards my last post re "valid travel itinerary", I have looked up the definition of this from several travel sources, eg air, coach and sea travel, and basically, all define "travel itinerary" and "itinerary" as meaning the travel document on which the passengers are travelling.

"Valid" is what is says, so I am surmising that "valid travel itinerary" simply means a valid ticket, therefore as far as the SWT T&Cs are concerned, we can break our journey early as we are in possession of a valid ticket, ie the Anytime tickets, thus complying with the T&Cs.

I would pose this to SWT CS, but suspect they would implode

 

[hairyhandedfool]

There is no specific definition of "a valid travel itinerary", but even if train tickets (without reservations) count then your tickets for London-Brockenhurst and Brockenhurst-Southampton would logically give a journey plan of London-Brockenhurst-Southampton rather than London-Southampton.

But even if we look past that, you would be travelling into Southampton on the Advance, not the Anytime. You could not possibly have made a journey on the Brockenhurst-Southampton ticket as Southampton is, by any sensible definition, not an intermediate station on that ticket. Claiming to have used it is basically a lie in that situation as you would not have done so.

 

[No Brakes]

I can probably help as I use Southampton Central all the time. If you're arriving anytime late evening then the barriers will be open anyway.

If not I'd just get off and use the ticket from Brockenhurst to Southampton as that will surely be accepted by the barriers anyway? There's regular trains between the 2 stations, so I wouldn't think twice about getting off at Southampton and using the barriers straight away.

It's a busy station so I really wouldn't worry too much - at least you've actually got a valid ticket.

Yesterday at Southampton as I was getting off some scumbag 15 year old was threatening the guard who'd taken his advance tickets off him as he was on the wrong train. Wanted to tell the little sh*t to jog on, but didn't want to make the situation worse.

 

[TonyR]

At the end of the day, the latter option gives me an extra 40 minutes sighseeing the area !

Definitely stay on the train to Brockenhurst then!

 

[TonyR]

The problem with getting off at Southampton Central is once you've done it there is no way of completing your Advanced Fare journey because the only train you can do it on has gone. Some RPIs will smell the opportunity for full fare ticket and PF and not be able to resist the temptation. To lower the risk you could get off at Southampton Airport, where unless things have changed there are multiple non-barrier exits and take either a Unilink U1 bus or a cab into town

 

[yorkie]

,,, Some RPIs will smell the opportunity for full fare ticket and PF and not be able to resist the temptation...

He will have asked the Guard, 99% of the time the answer will be yes, that makes him valid as he is following instructions from staff.

However if he didn't, and an RPI became aware of this and wanted to charge, then the rules state that an excess should be charged. It is true that an SWT RPI issued a Penalty Fare (PF) in similar circumstances a few years ago when someone was on a Megatrain ticket, but I was informed by a member of SWT staff that the customer successfully appealed against the issuing of the PF. I don't believe the NRCoC or the PF legislation allows for a PF to be charged in these circumstances.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

He will have asked the Guard, 99% of the time the answer will be yes, that makes him valid as he is following instructions from staff.....

If the guard simply says "yes" or "I see no reason to make you go there" then he has not given an instruction to do anything. If the guard said something like "just put your Anytime ticket through the barrier" then that could, imo, be considered an instruction.

 

[bnm]

Question asked. Answer given. Together that's an instruction. I agree with yorkie.
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Besides which, the byelaws speak of 'permission' rather than 'instruction'.

 

[dmackay42]

The problem with getting off at Southampton Central is once you've done it there is no way of completing your Advanced Fare journey because the only train you can do it on has gone. Some RPIs will smell the opportunity for full fare ticket and PF and not be able to resist the temptation. To lower the risk you could get off at Southampton Airport, where unless things have changed there are multiple non-barrier exits and take either a Unilink U1 bus or a cab into town

But, I do have a ticket from Brockenhurst to Southampton for the barrier.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Besides which, the byelaws speak of 'permission' rather than 'instruction'.

Which byelaws?

 

[clagmonster]

The problem with getting off at Southampton Central is once you've done it there is no way of completing your Advanced Fare journey because the only train you can do it on has gone.

Condition 19 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage:
"You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:
...
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one ticket to another;
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/content/NRCOC.pdf page 12

The Waterloo-Brockenhurst train calls at Southampton. The journey being made is Waterloo-Southampton. The journey commences when you enter London Waterloo Railway station and ends when you leave Southampton Central Railway Station. When the train arrive at Southampton, I would alight, and then 'swap tickets', to then be using the Brockenhurst-Southampton ticket, as per condition 19. This is then used for the part of the journey that involves walking from the platform, through the gateline, to the station exit.

Of course, this is only my interpretation. Others may disagree that this is a valid combination.

 

[dmackay42]

Condition 19 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage:
"You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:
...
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one ticket to another;
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/content/NRCOC.pdf page 12

The Waterloo-Brockenhurst train calls at Southampton. The journey being made is Waterloo-Southampton. The journey commences when you enter London Waterloo Railway station and ends when you leave Southampton Central Railway Station. When the train arrive at Southampton, I would alight, and then 'swap tickets', to then be using the Brockenhurst-Southampton ticket, as per condition 19. This is then used for the part of the journey that involves walking from the platform, through the gateline, to the station exit.

Of course, this is only my interpretation. Others may disagree that this is a valid combination.

Thanks Clagmonster, this is very helpful.

Personally, as someone who has spent the last 30 years interpreting this type of legislation into plain English as part of my job, I would say, in my learned opinion, your interpretation is very sound.

I will be travelling later in the week and will update the forum as to what happens!