Getting on at a later station?

[scipiiouse]

Afternoon all.

So basically, I was told at short notice that my friend is throwing a party in Manchester in two days time. I checked the train prices from Rugby to find that they were too much to justify a single day journey. As I was closing tabs, I noticed something on The Trainline: London to Manchester Piccadilly: £12.

So I got thinking...

Say I caught a London-Manchester train that stopped at Rugby using a London to Manchester return ticket, would that be allowed or would I get nuked with a hefty fine?

 

[Flying Snail]

Afternoon all.

So basically, I was told at short notice that my friend is throwing a party in Manchester in two days time. I checked the train prices from Rugby to find that they were too much to justify a single day journey. As I was closing tabs, I noticed something on The Trainline: London to Manchester Piccadilly: £12.

So I got thinking...

Say I caught a London-Manchester train that stopped at Rugby using a London to Manchester return ticket, would that be allowed or would I get nuked with a hefty fine?

It depends on the ticket you were using, some allow starting/stopping short others don't. The £12 ticket advertised would be an "Advance" ticket which are only valid for boarding/alighting at the named stations and not any in between so yes in that case you would be looking at either a fine or a demand for a new full-fare ticket to be purchased.

 

[telstarbox]

Also, hardly any of the London-Manchester trains stop at Rugby so this plan wouldn't work.

 

[IanD]

Also, don't use the trainline to buy tickets unless you want to be stung with their fees and charges. (These would add over 25% to the £12 London-Manchester ticket)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also you don't say what time you're going/coming back but you could try London Midland only fares from Rugby to Stoke/Crewe and then another ticket to Manchester and back. Could cost ass little as a tenner each way.

May have to select the 'Show slower routes' option to get the LM only fares to show.

 

[yorkie]

D

Say I caught a London-Manchester train that stopped at Rugby using a London to Manchester return ticket, would that be allowed or would I get nuked with a hefty fine?

You won't find a London to Manchester train that stops at Rugby*. If you finish short when not allowed, you can in theory be charged an excess fare up to the cost of the walk-up single fare.

You can get an Advance from London to Rugby for £10 on several trains, and as little as £6 on some of them!

(* Except very early or very late, when there will be cheap fares to Rugby anyway!)

 

[scipiiouse]

Cheers for the info.

I've always found it a little curious that train journey prices aren't determined by distance...

 

[LexyBoy]

All return tickets on this route, and on most other routes, allow you to break your journey and/or start/finish "short". Advance tickets such as the £12 fare (which BTW would be the cheapest available, probably not available at such short notice and/or at times you'd want to travel) never do and you would be liable for the full Anytime fare (£59.50 in your case).

I've always found it a little curious that train journey prices aren't determined by distance...

Prices generally are related to price, for "walk-on" fares, if you compare like with like. Advance fares can't be compared because the price for a given journey depends on how many tickets were originally released and how many have been sold at each price point.

If you can tell us a bit more detail about when you want to travel we will be able to suggest cheaper tickets - you can do it for ~£30 depending when you want to travel, if you don't mind being slightly limited in terms of flexibility.

 

[Liam]

All return tickets on this route, and on most other routes, allow you to break your journey and/or start/finish "short". Advance tickets such as the £12 fare (which BTW would be the cheapest available, probably not available at such short notice and/or at times you'd want to travel) never do and you would be liable for the full Anytime fare (£59.50 in your case).

I thought that most returns, off-peak and super off-peak generally only allow break of journey on the return portion?

 

[yorkie]

Cheers for the info.

I've always found it a little curious that train journey prices aren't determined by distance...

Oh no, not that chestnut again

It deserves a thread in its own right, but can we leave it a few months before re-opening that debate (in a new thread)

There was a huge debate here: Proposal to price by distance travelled (rather than market based pricing) and it has cropped up in numerous other threads since then too, so plenty of reading material for anyone who is curious

 

[LexyBoy]

I thought that most returns, off-peak and super off-peak generally only allow break of journey on the return portion?

The old Saver allowed BoJ on the return only, but it is now generally allowed except where it isn't. From the definitive source of information for all passenger rail services on the National Rail network in England, Wales and Scotland:

Break of journey is allowed on the outward portion of Off-Peak tickets unless otherwise indicated by a restriction shown against the ticket's validity code and in all cases on the return portion of Off-Peak return tickets.

The page for Off Peak Day tickets is less helpful, but since it doesn't deny BoJ we can conclude that it is always allowed for these tickets (confirmed by the restriction text information).

 

[craigwilson]

Off Peak Day tickets is less helpful, but since it doesn't deny BoJ we can conclude that it is always allowed for these tickets (confirmed by the restriction text information).

Indeed, and I've used it as such before e.g. buying a Manchester - Dewsbury CDR to do the transpenine real ale trail, making breaks on both outward and return legs. With no doubling back of course

 

[Foxy1980]

Evening, I do this journey quite a bit, your best bet is to break the journey at either Stafford or Stoke, normally this I would say now is £8 single from Rugby to Stoke in adv with LM and then take a XC adv ticket which should be around £8 again from either of Stafford or Stoke to Piccadilly. You may want to try both options as one station's connections maybe better than the others but it shouldn't be more than £16-17 single depending on the time of day your looking to travel on Thursday.
Returning at night you should be able to still get Virgin advance for around £15-17 single with a change a Crewe more than likely, I think it's the 19:50 or 19:55 of that isn't too early for you and takes about 2hrs door to door, there is a later connection or two I believe should the party your attending be more of an evening function....

Hope this helps anyhow and enjoy the party!

 

[SS4]

Evening, I do this journey quite a bit, your best bet is to break the journey at either Stafford or Stoke, normally this I would say now is £8 single from Rugby to Stoke in adv with LM and then take a XC adv ticket which should be around £8 again from either of Stafford or Stoke to Piccadilly. You may want to try both options as one station's connections maybe better than the others but it shouldn't be more than £16-17 single depending on the time of day your looking to travel on Thursday.
Returning at night you should be able to still get Virgin advance for around £15-17 single with a change a Crewe more than likely, I think it's the 19:50 or 19:55 of that isn't too early for you and takes about 2hrs door to door, there is a later connection or two I believe should the party your attending be more of an evening function....

Hope this helps anyhow and enjoy the party!

If OP is going to pass through Crewe on a day trip they may as well get a West Midlands Day Ranger with a Crewe - Manchester day return. Should be just under £25 by my estimation and they'd be flexible apart from having to call/change at Crewe

=====================

A quick note on terminology: break of journey is to get off the train before journey's end, go around town for a bit and then come back and finish your journey,

It sounds like you're thinking of splitting tickets whereby more than one ticket is used for a journey.

 

[bb21]

Afternoon all.

So basically, I was told at short notice that my friend is throwing a party in Manchester in two days time. I checked the train prices from Rugby to find that they were too much to justify a single day journey. As I was closing tabs, I noticed something on The Trainline: London to Manchester Piccadilly: £12.

Two days' time? What is your price range? Single/Return? Railcard?

 

[yorkie]

It depends on the ticket you were using, some allow starting/stopping short others don't. The £12 ticket advertised would be an "Advance" ticket which are only valid for boarding/alighting at the named stations and not any in between so yes in that case you would be looking at either a fine or a demand for a new full-fare ticket to be purchased.

I missed this earlier, so I'll dispel this myth now.

Well, as we know from the FGW Exeter/Newton Abbot-Paddington dispute that hit the headlines a few weeks ago, ATOC issued guidance to TOCs that no excess should be charged in these circumstances. FGW indicated they now comply with that, so I believe the correct action would be for the guard to charge no excess.

However, the NRCoC does allow for an excess to be charged, of the difference in fares between the price paid and the cheapest available ticket (e.g. Super Off Peak Single). There is a myth that if you "break your journey" (which is what starting/finishing short is lumped under) when not permitted incurs a new ticket, not quite sure why this myth is so widespread given the NRCoC states clearly that it's an excess.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The NRCoC does not state 'clearly' that it's an excess. It states that the passenger is 'liable' to pay an excess.

And since when does 'guidance' take preference over contract? Weren't you one of the people who claimed 'The Manual' is just 'guidance' and could not take preference over contract?

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Would some form of smart ticket similar to Oyster be a solution? Your ticket price then depends on
(a) the station you first board a train
(b) the station you leave the railway
(c) the trains you travel on

You could make it that it was more expensive to join or leave a train at a major station, but not so much as to remove all credibility from the fare structure.

If the ticket was smart enough, you could have on line sales pre loaded by plugging a device reader into a computer. So if you pre-purchase a special deal, you get the special price if you follow the conditions of the deal. Smartphones or tablets might even be the smart ticket themselves.

 

[jon0844]

Smart tickets will offer loads of innovative ways to charge people, as well as giving discounts and loyalty benefits (thus potentially replacing season tickets for people who travel a lot, but not every single day or even the same exact route).

I just hope the industry takes advantage of all the potential, and doesn't just make it a simple way to load standard tickets on a card - or as a simple PAYG system (which might work for local journeys, but will make it rather hard and impractical for when your single train ticket costs £100 or more).

 

[jkdd77]

As I understand it, there is never any obligation to sell an ticket, be it an excess fare or otherwise, to a passenger whose ticket is not valid (and who has had an opportunity to purchase one); a RPI may choose to report for prosecution instead.

Whilst this is relatively unlikely unless a passenger failed to pay the excess fare or was clearly trying to evade the 'correct' fare, it would be misleading to give the impression that there are no possible adverse consequences for a passenger from starting or finishing "short" on a ticket that does not permit BoJ.

 

[yorkie]

The NRCoC does not state 'clearly' that it's an excess. It states that the passenger is 'liable' to pay an excess.

True, the passenger is technically liable to pay an excess. But we know that ATOC guidance is not to issue an excess, and it appears Virgin wish their staff to follow that guidance.

And since when does 'guidance' take preference over contract? Weren't you one of the people who claimed 'The Manual' is just 'guidance' and could not take preference over contract?

The contract says the passenger is liable for an excess. I am not denying that. But it is daft to simply say what the passenger is liable to pay, without mentioning that the guidance not to charge the passenger does exist. No, the guidance does not over-ride the contract!

 

[SS4]

Would some form of smart ticket similar to Oyster be a solution? Your ticket price then depends on
(a) the station you first board a train
(b) the station you leave the railway
(c) the trains you travel on

You could make it that it was more expensive to join or leave a train at a major station, but not so much as to remove all credibility from the fare structure.

If the ticket was smart enough, you could have on line sales pre loaded by plugging a device reader into a computer. So if you pre-purchase a special deal, you get the special price if you follow the conditions of the deal. Smartphones or tablets might even be the smart ticket themselves.

I cannot see how smart ticketing will benefit the passenger unless demand is created by making cash very expensive in comparison.

 

[transmanche]

I cannot see how smart ticketing will benefit the passenger unless demand is created by making cash very expensive in comparison.

The Oyster system has demonstrated that smart ticketing has many benefits for passengers.

• The ability to change journey plans en-route, without facing the possibility of being charged a penalty fare, or having to get off the train to purchase an extension ticket.
• Daily price capping, without needing to decide before making your first journey which multi-journey ticket to purchase.
• Not having to worry about carrying cash, especially when linked with an auto top-up facility.

are three benefits which immediately spring to mind

 

[MarlowDonkey]

three benefits which immediately spring to mind

Not having to queue for a ticket or find a conductor to pay on the train is a fourth. Acceptance in the London area, even by infrequent visitors is facilitated or forced by the sky high prices of tickets. i think a single on the Underground is now a minimum of £ 4 if paid at a ticket machine or ticket office.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....The contract says the passenger is liable for an excess. I am not denying that. But it is daft to simply say what the passenger is liable to pay, without mentioning that the guidance not to charge the passenger does exist. No, the guidance does not over-ride the contract!

Then surely the 'correct thing' for the guard to do would be to issue an excess fare? Mentioning that they may not do it is one thing, saying that they should not do it is definitely another.

 

[yorkie]

Then surely the 'correct thing' for the guard to do would be to issue an excess fare? Mentioning that they may not do it is one thing, saying that they should not do it is definitely another.

My understanding is that Virgin expect their guards to comply with the guidance. Do you disagree?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I don't work for Virgin so I can't speak for them, but I have never seen the 'guidance' you speak of and so I would expect an excess as the minimum.

I would be pretty ticked off if I was given the idea that nothing would happen and then found out I had a big bill to pay though.