Given a transport for wales penalty fare for forgetting my indate railcard. What should i do?

[josephhughes85]

You are not helping us by continually repeating the same (or almost the same stuff) over and over again.
Calm down, there's plenty of time to get this resolved.
Try to give us an entirely clear account of what happened at the New Street ticket barrier. Answer the questions we pose, and no more, please. We should be able to sort this out but only if you don't bombard us with irrelevant stuff.

Sorry. At the new st barrier there were revenue officers and they asked to see my ticket. I shown them and he asked for my railcard. I realised I forgot it and apologised and logged into the railcard website to give him some evidence I do have one as it shows the railcard number etc. I offered to buy a new ticket but he refused

He then took my details and I gave him my driving license. The issuer assured me if I did have a railcard (I do) that my appeal would be successful

He took a photo of my ID but wrote the wrong name on the ticket. All the other details are correct aside from the name both surname and first name. But I noticed this later. I didn’t give false details to be clear as I handed him valid ID

He then let me on my way to get the return train.

That is what happened in full

Sorry. At the new st barrier there were revenue officers and they asked to see my ticket. I shown them and he asked for my railcard. I realised I forgot it and apologised and logged into the railcard website to give him some evidence I do have one as it shows the railcard number etc. I offered to buy a new ticket but he refused

He then took my details and I gave him my driving license. The issuer assured me if I did have a railcard (I do) that my appeal would be successful

He took a photo of my ID but wrote the wrong name on the ticket. All the other details are correct aside from the name both surname and first name. But I noticed this later. I didn’t give false details to be clear as I handed him valid ID

He then let me on my way to get the return train.

That is what happened in full

I was entering Birmingham new st to return ti tile hill. Coming from tile hill into bham I wasn’t asked anything

Hope that makes sense

 

[Gonzoiku]

Sorry. At the new st barrier there were revenue officers and they asked to see my ticket. I shown them and he asked for my railcard. I realised I forgot it and apologised and logged into the railcard website to give him some evidence I do have one as it shows the railcard number etc. I offered to buy a new ticket but he refused

He then took my details and I gave him my driving license. The issuer assured me if I did have a railcard (I do) that my appeal would be successful

He took a photo of my ID but wrote the wrong name on the ticket. All the other details are correct aside from the name both surname and first name. But I noticed this later. I didn’t give false details to be clear as I handed him valid ID

He then let me on my way to get the return train.

That is what happened in full


I was entering Birmingham new st to return ti tile hill. Coming from tile hill into bham I wasn’t asked anything

Hope that makes sense

It seems to me that you have been issued an 'anticipatory' penalty fare which was not appropriate to the circumstances, and should be appealed. On at least two grounds: wrong name (it wasn't me, guv); and I hadn't travelled at the time the penalty fare was issued.

But it also seems to me that having let you on your way, the revenue inspector was granting you authority to travel, so any further penalty could also bf challenged.

What a mess.

GZ

 

[josephhughes85]

It seems to me that you have been issued an 'anticipatory' penalty fare which was not appropriate to the circumstances, and should be appealed. On at least two grounds: wrong name (it wasn't me, guv); and I hadn't travelled at the time the penalty fare was issued.

But it also seems to me that having let you on your way, the revenue inspector was granting you authority to travel, so any further penalty could also bf challenged.

What a mess.

GZ

Definitely. It is a mess. When I rang transport investigations Friday afternoon soon after it was issued I queried the wrong name and they did have the photo of my actual ID with my name but on the ticket itself it’s the wrong name.

I’m unsure about the not travelling bit. As I was going on the return journey and presented the return ticket to the inspector however I had not boarded the return train it was at the barrier. So I made the inbound fine but it was the outbound where I got stopped

Theres nothing further to appeal as I wasn’t asked to show it on the return journey.

 

[transportphoto]

Theres nothing further to appeal as I wasn’t asked to show it on the return journey.

Would you like us to help you point out a series of inaccuracies which mean that the Penalty Fare has been incorrectly issued, or not?

The inaccuracies mean that an appeal, which uses these as grounds for appeal, should succeed.

 

[MotCO]

Can you clarify the time of the incident? You initially said it was 3.36 after you had seen a movie, but the ticket was issued at 2.33. Is it possible that the ticket you were given was meant for Mr Lloyd, although the journey details seem to be correct. And where did the name Llyod come from -you said you showed your driver's licence, not a Lloyd's bank card?

 

[josephhughes85]

Would you like us to help you point out a series of inaccuracies which mean that the Penalty Fare has been incorrectly issued, or not?

The inaccuracies mean that an appeal, which uses these as grounds for appeal, should succeed.

Sorry I was saying to the last commenters part on “so any further penalty could also bf challenged” I think I got myself confused.

Can you clarify the time of the incident? You initially said it was 3.36 after you had seen a movie, but the ticket was issued at 2.33. Is it possible that the ticket you were given was meant for Mr Lloyd, although the journey details seem to be correct. And where did the name Llyod come from -you said you showed your driver's licence, not a Lloyd's bank card?

I’m only guessing as my bank card is above my driving licence with the Lloyd’s name written on it. But the first name is different too. The 3;36 was the train I was getting I just got to the station earlier. Both journeys would’ve been off peak so I can travel on any of them. And yes I shown my driving license so I’m unsure how he made such an error. He took a photo of the licence too. So he’s got Lloyd from somewhere as the surname and a completely wrong forename.

 

[Spaceship323]

The penalty fare print out authorises travel to Birmingham new street, which is not the journey the op was making anyway. I think as @MotCO says, this is a penalty fare for someone else, and the person who checked your ticket has given you the wrong copy

 

[josephhughes85]

it has my correct address and date of birth. I’m unsure why it’s travelling to new st as I was at new st but he let me through anyway given me permission to continue the journey. I did show him the return ticket to tile hill so it’s weird.

Unless he’s got the name from a different interaction? But everything else is right just not the name which is a major difference to mine

 

[transportphoto]

You should make a further appeal stating the following grounds:

• The penalty fare has been incorrectly issued.
• The penalty fare has been issued as if you had just completed a journey from Tile Hill to Birmingham New Street. This was not the case, you were about to start a journey to Tile Hill but had not yet stepped onto a train.
• Birmingham New Street is not a compulsory fares area (it could be argued you therefore should have been afforded the opportunity to purchase a new ticket.)

It may be worth waiting for the second stage appeal to lodge these (and potentially others and/or refined) points of appeal.

TP

 

[AlterEgo]

If the goal is to cost the OP £0 in penalty fares the best answer is still to pay it and claim the money back, instead of making appeals which have less than 100% chance of success.

 

[DailyCommuter]

I wonder if the machine was set up wrongly - can anyone shed any light on this?

Might it be a multi-TOC revenue block or similar at New St, with TfW staff present, hence being issued by them?

 

[josephhughes85]

Might it be a multi-TOC revenue block or similar at New St, with TfW staff present, hence being issued by them?

I think so. It’s what tfw said when I rang them but it’s odd. It’s like a met officer pulling you over in Birmingham

You should make a further appeal stating the following grounds:

• The penalty fare has been incorrectly issued.
• The penalty fare has been issued as if you had just completed a journey from Tile Hill to Birmingham New Street. This was not the case, you were about to start a journey to Tile Hill but had not yet stepped onto a train.
• Birmingham New Street is not a compulsory fares area (it could be argued you therefore should have been afforded the opportunity to purchase a new ticket.)

It may be worth waiting for the second stage appeal to lodge these (and potentially others and/or refined) points of appeal.

TP

I’ve appealed it on these points but primarily the fact I have a valid railcard with the added information from railcard faqs that say you can normally claim or void excess fares forgetting it once. It actually appeared on the penalty services thing. I attached all the relevant mitigations so fingers crossed.

 

[RPI]

It's null and void, you cannot issue a penalty fare prior to travel, unless you are present in a compulsory ticket area (CTA) (excuse my limited knowledge of these, although I'm an authorised PF collector, I do not operate in any CTA's), I'm pretty sure Birmingham New Street isn't a CTA (I think Snow Hill and Moor street are/were).

Sorry to throw this in - which may be confusing, but it's relevant, the PF ultimately has been incorrectly issued.

 

[furlong]

It's null and void, you cannot issue a penalty fare prior to travel, unless you are present in a compulsory ticket area (CTA) (excuse my limited knowledge of these, although I'm an authorised PF collector, I do not operate in any CTA's), I'm pretty sure Birmingham New Street isn't a CTA (I think Snow Hill and Moor street are/were).

Sorry to throw this in - which may be confusing, but it's relevant, the PF ultimately has been incorrectly issued.

(It's indeed not a CTA.)

I think it has clearly been issued retrospectively for the inbound journey.

I think it's an incorrect interpretation, but they must be attempting to rely on:

(3)(2)(b) any reference to a person leaving a train includes a person present in or leaving—
(i) a station, having left a train arriving at that station;

arguing that the OP was present in the station again, having left a train arriving at that station several hours ago, left the station, but come back! Where do you draw the line? What if the inbound journey was the day before or last year? So I think you do have to interpret "having" as providing the immediate reason for "present in" the station - not as an unconnected event.

 

[josephhughes85]

Got an email today stating the fine was cancelled and my appeal successful

Thanks everyone for their help

 

[MotCO]

That's good news. They have ignored any issue with an incorrectly issued Penalty Fare, and allowed you the 'once-a-year-forgot-your-card' exemption.

I'm sure you appreciate their closing sentence - 'Thank you for using Penalty Services'.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thanks for updating. They’ve applied the spirit rather than the letter of the law, but that’s good news all round in my view.

 

[josephhughes85]

That's good news. They have ignored any issue with an incorrectly issued Penalty Fare, and allowed you the 'once-a-year-forgot-your-card' exemption.

I'm sure you appreciate their closing sentence - 'Thank you for using Penalty Services'.

Yes what a great service. 10/10 would use again lol

They’ve even addressed it to the wrong name still but oh well