Glasgow & South Western services before Beeching effects

[70014IronDuke]

Just wondering what the G&SW services were like up pre-Beeching (say, to 1963) on the main line between Glasgow and Carlisle?

I realise there was the up Thames-Clyde (dep St Enoch 10.00?) and the up late afternoon Leeds (dep c 16.00) plus the St Pancras sleeper, but what was there in between?

Did the line have any other class 1 trains? Or was it just locals? If so, were there semi-fast locals stopping at the 'main' secondary stations between the two cities, stopping at rather like today's service, plus some all-stops locals, or did all locals stop everywhere? As there were many more wayside stations pre-Beeching, if it was the latter, it would have been real slow job.

What was the motive power? Black 5s, I'd guess, but ISTR seeing compounds and Cl 2 4-4-0s in more historical times, ie up to about 1960.

I presume there were no through workings to Newcastle, as there has been for some years? I certainly don't remember them in the late 60s or early 70s – these seem to have been a relatively modern invention.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Beside the bridge leading into Glasgow Central, there are disused substantial bridge supports (east side), were these used for the old St Enoch station?

 

[hexagon789]

You essentially had a similar arrangement to now with local services to East Kilbride, Barrhead and Kilmarnock, however the timings were not clockface and calling patterns irregular. There were far fewer Barrhead terminators and many services to Kilmarnock stopped at Crossmyloof and Pollokshaws West. Most East Kilbride services were DMU operated in 1962 as were some but not all Kilmarnocks. In addition to the Thames-Clyde and afternoon Leeds service there were several Glasgow-Carlisle services, most of which consisted of a mixed-bag of 5-6 corridor coaches and the ubiquitous Stanier 5, which often operated stopping services to Kilmarnock with 2-5 non-corridor coaches.The Thames-Clyde was often a Jubilee, though Duchesses were often seen. I've seen a photo of the 9 pm Sleeper hauled by a Stanier 5 and an A2 double-headed. A notable working which existed for most of the 60s without change was the noon semi-fast to Carlisle which called at Kilmarnock, Cumnock, New Cumnock, Kirkconnel, Sanquhar, Thornhill, Dumfries, Annan and Carlisle arriving at 2.44 pm. There was also a Saturdays only 8.45 am with Miniature Buffet to St. Pancras, running a mere 35 in advance of the Thames-Clyde. There was also a Sumber Saturdays to Blackpool Central, the 4pm to Leeds, the 8.50 pm Fridays only to St Pancras and the 9 pm Sleeper to St Pancras. Services to Carlisle were the 6.25 am, the 8.45 Fridays only, the 12 noon, 2 pm and 5.30 pm. The 10.25 pm Sleeper from Glasgow Central to Euston also used the line. If you'd like me to scan my copy of the Summer 1962 timetable for the Nith Valley Line, just say and I'll scan it and PM or e-mail it too you. Though I probably won't be able to do so tonight.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Beside the bridge leading into Glasgow Central, there are disused substantial bridge supports (east side), were these used for the old St Enoch station?

Er, I don't pretend to be an expert, but St Enoch was south of the Clyde, wasn't (isn't) it? I have a feeling those pillars were for something else.

 

[hexagon789]

St Enoch station was definitely north of the river. It stood where the shopping centre currently resides. The disused supports were part of Glasgow Central station removed as the life expired, oldest part of the bridge over the Clyde. I believe it was removed upon Cathcart Circle line electrification in 1962.

 

[70014IronDuke]

... In addition to the Thames-Clyde and afternoon Leeds service there were several Glasgow-Carlisle services, most of which consisted of a mixed-bag of 5-6 corridor coaches and the ubiquitous Stanier 5, which often operated stopping services to Kilmarnock with 2-5 non-corridor coaches.The Thames-Clyde was often a Jubilee, though Duchesses were often seen. ..

I had imagined Stanier pacifics were rare visitors. Corkerhill had a handful of Jubilees (as I remember) and I've seen photos of Polmadie Scots on the TC. But maybe that was after Class 40s had displaced them from the Caledonian route.

... A notable working which existed for most of the 60s without change was the noon semi-fast to Carlisle which called at Kilmarnock, Cumnock, New Cumnock, Kirkconnel, Sanquhar, Thornhill, Dumfries, Annan and Carlisle arriving at 2.44 pm.

There was also a Saturdays only 8.45 am with Miniature Buffet to St. Pancras, running a mere 35 in advance of the Thames-Clyde.

Could this have been a service serving Corby, intended to relieve the TC of the steeltown masses?

There was also a Sumber Saturdays to Blackpool Central, the 4pm to Leeds, the 8.50 pm Fridays only to St Pancras and the 9 pm Sleeper to St Pancras. Services to Carlisle were the 6.25 am, the 8.45 Fridays only, the 12 noon, 2 pm and 5.30 pm.

So there was no real effort for a business train leaving Glasgow c 08.00 to serve the larger towns on the line? (A bit like the 12.00 noon, only perhaps a bit faster).

And, presumably then, there was no down 'business express' leaving Carlisle at, say, 07.00 attempting to lure business folk from Dumfries and other stations for an 09.xx arrival and 10.00 business meeting in Glasgow?

Was this always the case? I mean, did the G&SW as an independent company attempt to provide an attractive "internal" train or two (ie not a Class 1 going onto the Midland)? If so, I suppose the run-down was begun by the LMS - perhaps induced by WW1.

It just seems a bit strange for a 'proper' independent railway not to have at least one "flagship" train for itself for PR purposes, even it if was not justified by genuine traffic needs. (I would imagine that would be a down 07.00-ish ex Carlisle and an up 17.00-ish ex St Enoch. )

Of course, the main traffic was presumably coal, steel and other goods from the Kilmarnock area. And, Dumfries apart, I guess there was not much south of Kilmarnock to generate traffic, especially pre WW1 when the ordinary man's lot was pretty bad.

Perhaps too the directors were a hard-nosed bunch, happy that their "crack" trains were shared with the Midland and not fussed about running expensive expresses with non-standard fancy stock of their own that lost money.

The 10.25 pm Sleeper from Glasgow Central to Euston also used the line. If you'd like me to scan my copy of the Summer 1962 timetable for the Nith Valley Line, just say and I'll scan it and PM or e-mail it too you. Though I probably won't be able to do so tonight.

Thank you. Most interesting. Perhaps you could post it up here for anyone else interested to see?

 

[70014IronDuke]

St Enoch station was definitely north of the river. It stood where the shopping centre currently resides. The disused supports were part of Glasgow Central station removed as the life expired, oldest part of the bridge over the Clyde. I believe it was removed upon Cathcart Circle line electrification in 1962.

Ooops. OK. I must have got the map mixed up in the old brain box. (It had just closed when I first went to Glasgow, I believe.)

 

[30907]

The 1910 Bradshaw shows 3 daytime expresses to and from London, plus the Leeds train.

The last night sleeper northbound left Dumfries at 7.14, and the southbound Leeds was at 5.30, so a business trip was possible - but with an early start by the standards of the time.

Any Newcastle service would have taken the Port Road to Stranraer.

 

[RT4038]

I had imagined Stanier pacifics were rare visitors. Corkerhill had a handful of Jubilees (as I remember) and I've seen photos of Polmadie Scots on the TC. But maybe that was after Class 40s had displaced them from the Caledonian route.



Could this have been a service serving Corby, intended to relieve the TC of the steeltown masses?



So there was no real effort for a business train leaving Glasgow c 08.00 to serve the larger towns on the line? (A bit like the 12.00 noon, only perhaps a bit faster).

And, presumably then, there was no down 'business express' leaving Carlisle at, say, 07.00 attempting to lure business folk from Dumfries and other stations for an 09.xx arrival and 10.00 business meeting in Glasgow?

Was this always the case? I mean, did the G&SW as an independent company attempt to provide an attractive "internal" train or two (ie not a Class 1 going onto the Midland)? If so, I suppose the run-down was begun by the LMS - perhaps induced by WW1.

It just seems a bit strange for a 'proper' independent railway not to have at least one "flagship" train for itself for PR purposes, even it if was not justified by genuine traffic needs. (I would imagine that would be a down 07.00-ish ex Carlisle and an up 17.00-ish ex St Enoch. )

Of course, the main traffic was presumably coal, steel and other goods from the Kilmarnock area. And, Dumfries apart, I guess there was not much south of Kilmarnock to generate traffic, especially pre WW1 when the ordinary man's lot was pretty bad.

Perhaps too the directors were a hard-nosed bunch, happy that their "crack" trains were shared with the Midland and not fussed about running expensive expresses with non-standard fancy stock of their own that lost money.



Thank you. Most interesting. Perhaps you could post it up here for anyone else interested to see?

Sorry, but you are a misinformed. In my timetable dated 11 June 1956 there are 4 northbound morning trains to Glasgow: 6h48 Dumfries to Glasgow due 09h15 stopping at all stations to Dunlop (except Closeburn), them semi-fast. Next came 6h30 from Carlisle which had started from London Euston at 23h50, stopping at Dumfries at 7h20 and Kilmarnock to Glasgow arr 9h25. This train conveyed a restaurant car from Carlisle to Glasgow. Following this train was the 7h00 from Carlisle / 8h00 from Dumfries stopping only at Thornhill, Sanquhar, Kirkconnel, New Cumnock, and Kilmarnock, due Glasgow 10h02. Finally then the 7h45 from Carlisle / 8hh42 from Dumfries thence stopping all stations to Kilmarnock and fast to Glasgow due 11h03. I would say that this was a pretty comprehensive service to lure 'business folk' to Glasgow!
On the return was 16h00 Glasgow to Leeds, stopping only at Kilmarnock to Dumfries due 17h49, a 17h30 Glasgow to Penzance stopping Kilmarnock, Thornhill to Dumfries due 19h26 and a 17h38 Glasgow to Dumfries arr 20h01, fast to Dunlop then all stations except Closeburn. I'm not sure what else a 1956 businessman in Dumfries would have wanted.

In the opposite direction was the 09h20 Thames Clyde Express, stopping only at Kilmarnock to Dumfries arr 11h09. Lunch and a meeting then your Glasgow businessman could return on the down Thames Clyde at 17h51. Not that there can have been many doing this each day?

 

[Taunton]

The main expresses on the G&SW were traditionally organised by the Midland and their successors, and using their rolling stock. David L Smith's books (a must to understand the G&SW) speak about "The Pullman" and "The Diner" as the key trains. These provided sufficient service for the faster journeys on the line, so what remained was just all-stations locals. This was a common arrangement throughout the country before the 1960s. The expresses all stopped at Dumfries and Kilmarnock, there was not much else of consequence along the way.

In addition, after 1923 it was always used as an odd reliever to the Caledonian main line, both for passenger and freight. The low-price "Starlight Specials" that ran around 1960 to London Marylebone (yes) went this way.

Jubilees had long been the large steam power on the line, from Glasgow (both Polmadie and Corkerhill) and Carlisle Kingmoor, and sometimes working through from Leeds. They also ran the key trains on the Ayrshire Coast main line. With dieselisation, Peaks from depots on the Midland became standard.

It was also a significant freight route, it doesn't have such a high summit as Beattock to surmount and it kept the slow drags off the old Caledonian main line.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Sorry, but you are a misinformed.
In my timetable dated 11 June 1956 there are 4 northbound morning trains to Glasgow: 6h48 Dumfries to Glasgow due 09h15 stopping at all stations to Dunlop (except Closeburn), them semi-fast. Next came 6h30 from Carlisle which had started from London Euston at 23h50, stopping at Dumfries at 7h20 and Kilmarnock to Glasgow arr 9h25. This train conveyed a restaurant car from Carlisle to Glasgow. Following this train was the 7h00 from Carlisle / 8h00 from Dumfries stopping only at Thornhill, Sanquhar, Kirkconnel, New Cumnock, and Kilmarnock, due Glasgow 10h02. Finally then the 7h45 from Carlisle / 8hh42 from Dumfries thence stopping all stations to Kilmarnock and fast to Glasgow due 11h03. I would say that this was a pretty comprehensive service to lure 'business folk' to Glasgow!

Well, I was trying to extrapolate from the earlier poster really, rather than he misinforming me or anyone else.

Interesting what you write, but in all honesty, the only decent trains in terms of timings from Dumfries would have been the 07.20 sleeper (?) from Euston, and the 08.00 semi-fast. The earier train would have been pretty pointless from Dumfires itself, but was, presumably, aimed at users from the intermediate stations.

Interesting too that they surely timetabled the sleeper for this 'business meeting' role (I presume it was a better timekeeper than today's Euston sleepers )

On the return was 16h00 Glasgow to Leeds, stopping only at Kilmarnock to Dumfries due 17h49, a 17h30 Glasgow to Penzance stopping Kilmarnock, Thornhill to Dumfries due 19h26 and a 17h38 Glasgow to Dumfries arr 20h01, fast to Dunlop then all stations except Closeburn. I'm not sure what else a 1956 businessman in Dumfries would have wanted.

Faireenuff. Not bad by the standards of the day, I'd say.

In the opposite direction (???) was the 09h20 Thames Clyde Express, stopping only at Kilmarnock to Dumfries arr 11h09. Lunch and a meeting then your Glasgow businessman could return on the down Thames Clyde at 17h51. Not that there can have been many doing this each day?

Yes. An 08.00 fast-ish departure would have been nice too. But given the likely demand - I guess it was about as good as could be expected. Thanks for the info.

 

[Grumpy]

In the period up to 1960 the services continuing south to Leeds were mainly worked throughout by Holbeck Scots, Jubilees and Britannias. In 1960/61 some A3's were transferred to Holbeck and largely took over. From 1962-ish the A3's were in turn replaced by Holbeck Peaks.

 

[RT4038]

Well, I was trying to extrapolate from the earlier poster really, rather than he misinforming me or anyone else.

Interesting what you write, but in all honesty, the only decent trains in terms of timings from Dumfries would have been the 07.20 sleeper (?) from Euston, and the 08.00 semi-fast. The earier train would have been pretty pointless from Dumfires itself, but was, presumably, aimed at users from the intermediate stations.

Interesting too that they surely timetabled the sleeper for this 'business meeting' role (I presume it was a better timekeeper than today's Euston sleepers )



Faireenuff. Not bad by the standards of the day, I'd say.



Yes. An 08.00 fast-ish departure would have been nice too. But given the likely demand - I guess it was about as good as could be expected. Thanks for the info.

Interestingly, in the six years [and no doubt several economy drives!] to 1962 the service was quite attenuated:
6h48 Dumfries to Glasgow now started from Annan and the 6h30 Carlisle/7h20 Dumfries 'sleeper' to Glasgow Central was unchanged. The other 'down' trains were withdrawn. The next northbound departure from Dumfries was at 11h50 'stopping' to Glasgow. In the up direction the 16h00 express now left at 16h10, and the 17h30 express to Penzance had been curtailed at Carlisle, and was now fast to Lugton and then all station to Dumfries, then Annan, replacing the 17h38 which was withdrawn.
The southbound Thames Clyde expresss had been retimed to leave at 09h05, arriving Dumfries at 10h37, whilst the northbound left Dumfries earlier at 17h23, arriving Glasgow at 19h05. No doubt the fruit of conversion to Diesel traction. There was a southbound train from Glasgow at 8h05, stopping at all stations to Kilmarnock arr 8h58.

I expect that the more frequent, and cheaper, Western S.M.T. buses that plied a parallel route took most of the passenger traffic!

 

[Dr Hoo]

Thanks for really helpful post.

So, in the context of the OP's question, 'deterioration' had already set in well before the Reshaping report, unlike some other lines where local DMUs in particular had only recently improved many aspects of services.

 

[Taunton]

In 1960 the southbound overnight sleeper, 9pm from Glasgow St Enoch, was wrecked on the Settle & Carlisle line when the right hand motion of Polmadie-based Britannia Pacific 70052 Firth of Tay fell apart and dug into the adjacent Down line at Settle, just as a down freight was passing, which was derailed and overturned against the carriages of the express.

Unfortunately yet another of Iron Duke's brothers' design errors. There was a design modification done to the motion of all Britannias after the event, as it was not the first time these components, very inaccessible to fitters, had worked loose.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

The southbound Thames Clyde expresss had been retimed to leave at 09h05, arriving Dumfries at 10h37, whilst the northbound left Dumfries earlier at 17h23, arriving Glasgow at 19h05. No doubt the fruit of conversion to Diesel traction.

An interesting read and many thanks for the above information as it helps to fill a gap in a particularly vivid childhood memory....in brief, I went up to Glasgow with my father and elder brother on a trainspotting trip and to travel on a special behind the HR 'Jones Goods' (obviously my father's idea) on Sunday Oct 17th 1965.
We travelled up on the T-C express joining at Kettering on the Saturday, and returned on the Monday, presumably in 1965 it was still at 09h05? My father was a steam fan and we paid no interest in the diesels, but I well remember my excitement when we arrived at the station on the Monday morning as we could see steam at the front of our train, it was Britannia 70005 'John Milton' and it was deputising for a failed diesel. I think it had brought a down train in the previous evening. Although I was hoping that it would take us over the S&C it was, of course, replaced at Carlisle. To a ten year old this was far more exciting than the Jones Goods, I'm afraid.
Could someone confirm that the T-C express did run on Saturdays? (I'm pretty sure that we did travel on it) and did it run on Sundays...as I have a vague memory that the Britannia hauled it on the Sunday (for the failed diesel), Dad would have learned this from the driver. I'd also be interested to know when was the last steam-hauled Thames-Clyde.

 

[RT4038]

An interesting read and many thanks for the above information as it helps to fill a gap in a particularly vivid childhood memory....in brief, I went up to Glasgow with my father and elder brother on a trainspotting trip and to travel on a special behind the HR 'Jones Goods' (obviously my father's idea) on Sunday Oct 17th 1965.
We travelled up on the T-C express joining at Kettering on the Saturday, and returned on the Monday, presumably in 1965 it was still at 09h05? My father was a steam fan and we paid no interest in the diesels, but I well remember my excitement when we arrived at the station on the Monday morning as we could see steam at the front of our train, it was Britannia 70005 'John Milton' and it was deputising for a failed diesel. I think it had brought a down train in the previous evening. Although I was hoping that it would take us over the S&C it was, of course, replaced at Carlisle. To a ten year old this was far more exciting than the Jones Goods, I'm afraid.
Could someone confirm that the T-C express did run on Saturdays? (I'm pretty sure that we did travel on it) and did it run on Sundays...as I have a vague memory that the Britannia hauled it on the Sunday (for the failed diesel), Dad would have learned this from the driver. I'd also be interested to know when was the last steam-hauled Thames-Clyde.

By Sep 1964 the time had changed to 9h00 on Mon-Sat & 9h55 on Sundays, from St.Enoch on Mon-Sat & Central on Sun. Northbound train didn't stop at Kettering Sep 1964-June 65

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

By Sep 1964 the time had changed to 9h00 on Mon-Sat & 9h55 on Sundays, from St.Enoch on Mon-Sat & Central on Sun. Northbound train didn't stop at Kettering Sep 1964-June 65

Many thanks for the information.

 

[Bevan Price]

Regarding "business" travel - things were more leisurely in the past. Any business person from, say, Dumfries, without a car would almost certainly have spent at least one night in a Glasgow hotel rather than use a very early morning train from Dumfries. Equally, long distance commuting was less common than today. Few people south of Kilmarnock would have commuted to work in Glasgow.

And, as an aside, although the Glasgow - Carlisle line might seem a bit of a "prestige" route, the main money maker for G&SWR would probably have been the Ayrshire Coast lines.