Glasgow St Enoch - Plans to transform Glasgow car park into huge multi-storey hotel, flats and pub development

[Speed43125]

It's not the game changer for Scotland everyone says it is.

Funny that, I've not met a single person who is particularly excited by HS2, in fact many haven't heard of it at all. I agree the speed improvement to Birmingham or London will be in the 10s of minutes which isn't great.

 

[Highland37]

I think it should be built but should come to all nations of Great Britain. Otherwise England can pay for it. The UK needs high speed rail but that means all of the UK nations (except NI).

 

[edwin_m]

Current plans see the HS2 London-Scotland services running on the WCML from Golborne to Carlisle as 400m sets, but then splitting into 200m portions for Glasgow and Edinburgh. So Central will only need to take 200m HS2 formations, although one more train per hour than today. The 400m capability is further in the future and ideas were indeed being looked at a few years ago to create 400m platforms across the river. UIC gauge would require new or totally rebuilt infrastructure (the latter being more expensive) all the way from Golborne or Church Fenton.

Phase 2b is predicted to give a London-Glasgow time of about 3hr 40min compared with 4hr 20min today, and also some reduction in Birmingham-Glasgow times. So there is some benefit for Glasgow even with no new infrastructure in Scotland.

 

[route101]

Funny that, I've not met a single person who is particularly excited by HS2, in fact many haven't heard of it at all. I agree the speed improvement to Birmingham or London will be in the 10s of minutes which isn't great.

Im from Glasgow and not against HS2 , few of my peers are , they dont really travel to London and are SNP supporters

 

[Speed43125]

Im from Glasgow and not against HS2 , few of my peers are , they dont really travel to London and are SNP supporters

Most people I know are indifferent on it. Few go by train that far south, and are only swayed by the odd new report here and there on it. (Usually complaining about cost, not that we are bearing it up here). I'm generally relatively enthusiastic about it, though I would have rathered more be done in Scotland (as well as further north in England), as Highland37 says, it is really just an affix onto the main project.

 

[snookertam]

HS2 seems like a big and overdue step forward as far as rail infrastructure goes, but it seems clear it's not coming to Scotland in the sense that the new infrastructure will cross the border or even come close. If it lowers journey times between Glasgow and London then it's at least something. The train is pretty competitive for Glasgow/London journeys as it is anyway.

As for the City Union - someone asked when the last scheduled passenger journey was - aside from charters or any possible engineering diverts (not sure if there ever would have been any of these though) then yes, the last time it was in regular passenger use (at least to the south) was in 1967.

I was one who was originally in favour of reopening the City Union as crossrail but I take the points in the report posted above that it will potentially worsen the rail links we have. The north-south tunnel seems like a better move and hopefully some serious feasibility work gets underway. It is important for the city region regardless of whether HS2 actually happens or not.

 

[route101]

Most people I know are indifferent on it. Few go by train that far south, and are only swayed by the odd new report here and there on it. (Usually complaining about cost, not that we are bearing it up here). I'm generally relatively enthusiastic about it, though I would have rathered more be done in Scotland (as well as further north in England), as Highland37 says, it is really just an affix onto the main project.

Yes, would like to see improvements up here too. Would say quite a few travel to London on train

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Does that then mean that the last regularly scheduled passenger workings along the "Tron" line itself would have been as long ago as c. 1967 when St. Enoch station was closed?

As for the City Union - someone asked when the last scheduled passenger journey was - aside from charters or any possible engineering diverts (not sure if there ever would have been any of these though) then yes, the last time it was in regular passenger use (at least to the south) was in 1967.

That was me. Thanks for the info.

 

[InOban]

I agree that the City Union is not a solution to any current problem.
The Cathcart lines should become tram routes and extended into the major housing areas such as Castlemilk. The teams would run up the streets alongside Central and extended into the Northern estates beyond Maryhill.
I agree with extending platforms 1&2 across the river and creating a new dedicated Intercity route. It probably needs a Parkway station close to the motorway network.
The big gain would be the bypassing of the two track section through Cambuslang.

 

[CM]

I agree that the City Union is not a solution to any current problem.
The Cathcart lines should become tram routes and extended into the major housing areas such as Castlemilk. The teams would run up the streets alongside Central and extended into the Northern estates beyond Maryhill.
I agree with extending platforms 1&2 across the river and creating a new dedicated Intercity route. It probably needs a Parkway station close to the motorway network.
The big gain would be the bypassing of the two track section through Cambuslang.

Converting the Cathcart Circle lines to tram operation wouldn't happen. Mainly because those lines are used as diversionary routes out of Glasgow Central if the line via Cambuslang is shut.

 

[NotATrainspott]

While the HS2 plans are for 200m classic-compatibles to get to Glasgow, it would be absurd to not consider future possibilities when rebuilding the station. Now that the plans are for captive gauge platforms to be at 1155mm above rail height, they become much more desirable in themselves for HS2 services as they'll permit complete level access and possibly even platform edge doors. Today, the long platforms at Central have curves in them which make sighting and access difficult for all. Any station in GB where it's practical to provide dedicated 400m platforms for HSR services will likely seriously consider setting them up to be captive TSI standard, even if they're completely marooned from the rest of the TSI gauge network.

Remember that as the rail network develops, we'll see specialisation of tracks and platforms. In future, Central will probably see most of its suburban services sent onto the metro network or into a tunnel, leaving only longer-distance regional and LDHS services left. With the plans for the bypass line to Rutherglen, the easternmost pair of tracks into Central station will end up used only by LDHS and express services to Edinburgh, which could all be designed to handle the captive platforms. Therefore it's not as unreasonable as it sounds. In day to day service a Stranraer bi-mode rural train won't have any good reason to cross over all the way to the LDHS platforms, and then find the captive gauge to be problematic.

 

[BrianW]

That would have been better.

I believe one report known as the Glasgow Metro report proposed an alternative which included:

1. a North south tunnel from Central to Queen Street (instead of Glasgow Crossrail)
2. an expanded Central station by extending platforms to the south of the current station to allow 400 metre trains to run into the station

Page 32-35 : https://www.glasgow.gov.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=45064&p=0

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This report, unlike many, seemed to present a level-headed and balanced view, not biased by trying to support an already partisan 'design'. I am not however a Glaswegian. As an outsider my experiences related to needing to get from Central to Queen Street, and how did the subway relate? Much as it may be resisted,and understandably, good links including London are important for development; and the suburban network too- viz the 'Blue Trains'. Hoping to see infrastructure investment as a central part of a post-Covid 'levelling up'.

 

[66C]

On numerous times of the St John's cord I have heard said 'How many hundreds of millions do you want to spend to get another two trains an hour into Queen St low level'.
NR did a study a few years ago looking at a central platform in QS low level or a central turnback siding west of Charing Cross.
An interchange at Glasgow Cross would be useful for many but the diverted services to serve it would decrease frequency at the main stations.

 

[66C]

On numerous times of the St John's cord I have heard said 'How many hundreds of millions do you want to spend to get another two trains an hour into Queen St low level'.
NR did a study a few years ago looking at a central platform in QS low level or a central turnback siding west of Charing Cross.
An interchange at Glasgow Cross would be useful for many but the diverted services to serve it would decrease frequency at the main stations.

 

[NotATrainspott]

This report, unlike many, seemed to present a level-headed and balanced view, not biased by trying to support an already partisan 'design'. I am not however a Glaswegian. As an outsider my experiences related to needing to get from Central to Queen Street, and how did the subway relate? Much as it may be resisted,and understandably, good links including London are important for development; and the suburban network too- viz the 'Blue Trains'. Hoping to see infrastructure investment as a central part of a post-Covid 'levelling up'.

Scotland in general has a different set of issues than are common across England and Wales. More of Scotland's population lives in the fairly narrow geographic band where it's possible to commute into a city centre (essentially Glasgow or Edinburgh) for work, education and leisure than seems to be the case in England. The two main cities are also largely doing fine at attracting high-profile graduate investment. Places like Manchester seem to be similarly 'fine' in England - the problem is the wide range of smaller towns built around industries which no longer exist, and where they are too far from a sustainable city for there to be any opportunities.

Many of the problems faced are legacies of the cities (largely Glasgow) being industrialised and then rapidly de-industrialised and de-populated. The Glasgow Metro does a fair job of addressing the gap between the established areas where the Victorians set up commuter rail networks, and where many Glaswegians ended up. Newton Mearns and Castlemilk are two sides of the same coin here. More affluent people moved out of the city into car-focussed suburbs but now find themselves needing to commute into the congested city centre for work. Less affluent people were cleared out of slums and into developments on the outskirts which have proven to be a big mistake due to poor facilities and transport links.

The creation of the modern councils has hampered Glasgow's planning because Glasgow City Council is burdened with providing infrastructure that gets used by the population of surrounding councils. It's absolutely necessary for there to be joint planning across the Glasgow urban area for any infrastructure plans. This seems to be happening with the Metro network, which is great to see.

 

[Highland37]

Good point about the local authority changes which made Glasgow much poorer and were a political choice.

 

[route101]

Glasgow has a great railway network but its so ar behind in ticketing , increased services (Metro like,early and late services) and ingregation .

 

[route:oxford]

Good point about the local authority changes which made Glasgow much poorer and were a political choice.

I don't hear any campaigning to bring back Strathclyde Council, although we were lumbered with too many Councils back in the 1990s changes. What's the point of Clackmannanshire?

But back to Scotland's West Coast HS2 terminal...

Who knows what the retail map of Central Glasgow will be in in the near future. The shopping centre might not be the obstacle that many perceive.

 

[alangla]

I don't hear any campaigning to bring back Strathclyde Council, although we were lumbered with too many Councils back in the 1990s changes. What's the point of Clackmannanshire?

But back to Scotland's West Coast HS2 terminal...

Who knows what the retail map of Central Glasgow will be in in the near future. The shopping centre might not be the obstacle that many perceive.

The old BHS store and pretty much everything east of Debenhams in that centre is currently being redeveloped as a cinema & leisure area. The landlord clearly thinks it’s got a future and the multi-storey car park should be a solid earner even if the shops aren’t. I suspect it’s not going anywhere in the medium term. Cracking bit of late 80s/early 90s architecture as well (IMHO).

 

[EbbwJunction1]

My apologies if this is off-topic (and, more especially, a daft question), but I was watching the Glasgow Central programme on TV on Saturday.

It included the tour guide taking the camera down into the disused platform(s) in the Low Level Station, which I found amazing, as I had no idea any of that had existed or still did exist. My question is: Could these platform(s) be reused as part of the Low Level system to take away pressure on the High level Station?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

My apologies if this is off-topic (and, more especially, a daft question), but I was watching the Glasgow Central programme on TV on Saturday.

It included the tour guide taking the camera down into the disused platform(s) in the Low Level Station, which I found amazing, as I had no idea any of that had existed or still did exist. My question is: Could these platform(s) be reused as part of the Low Level system to take away pressure on the High level Station?

I swear there was a plan in a study to divert more services via the low level station (no reopening of the platforms mentioned though.

 

[InOban]

Sending more trains through LL means more using the flat junction at Rutherglen to access the LL route. That's why new segregated intercity tracks are necessary.

 

[66C]

And no where to go at the congested Partick end.

 

[InOban]

There's a turnback siding at exhibition centre. Never understood why they don't build a platform for it.

 

[route:oxford]

The old BHS store and pretty much everything east of Debenhams in that centre is currently being redeveloped as a cinema & leisure area. The landlord clearly thinks it’s got a future and the multi-storey car park should be a solid earner even if the shops aren’t. I suspect it’s not going anywhere in the medium term. Cracking bit of late 80s/early 90s architecture as well (IMHO).

Is it still owned by the Church of England?

It doesn't seem that long ago that they were fighting the original planning covenant for the "leisure facility" and successfully obtained permission to close down the ice rink.

 

[alangla]

Is it still owned by the Church of England?

It doesn't seem that long ago that they were fighting the original planning covenant for the "leisure facility" and successfully obtained permission to close down the ice rink.

They sold it in 1996 apparently. Currently owned by Blackstone https://www.st-enoch.com/about/history/

 

[Bald Rick]

I wasn't asking a question. I was point out that HS2 is an England only project with some of the trains, slower than the 390s due to the poor infrastructure, coming to Glasgow. It's not the game changer for Scotland everyone says it is.

I’d say knocking about 20% off the London to Glasgow / Edinburgh journey time and doubling the number of the fastest services, fairly changes the game?

 

[snookertam]

I agree that the City Union is not a solution to any current problem.
The Cathcart lines should become tram routes and extended into the major housing areas such as Castlemilk. The teams would run up the streets alongside Central and extended into the Northern estates beyond Maryhill.
I agree with extending platforms 1&2 across the river and creating a new dedicated Intercity route. It probably needs a Parkway station close to the motorway network.
The big gain would be the bypassing of the two track section through Cambuslang.

Yet to hear this belief that the Cathcart routes should be converted to light rail from anyone who actually uses them. It would make journey times longer. Not to mentioned the fact that the suggested spurs to Newton Mearns and Castlemilk would require significant infrastructure works in heavily populated areas - and wouldn’t necessarily improve travel times to those places over an alternative direct road aligned route.

All for the idea of light rail but I’d suggest the Cathcart Circle routes are kept as is. Any new north-south tunnel would actually improve access to Central if anything, and provide for potential frequency increases.

 

[InOban]

The fundamental principle is that inner suburban services should never end in a terminus. They should always be cross city routes. Given that north Glasgow is very hilly, I think only a tram is feasible.

 

[66C]

Studies were also carried out to 4 track from Uddington Junction to Rutherglen or a flyover at Newton from the Hamilton lines on to the lifted line to Carmyle. Both in the very costly bracket. In the end I think the improved junctions at Newton and Rutherglen East and some timetable alterations to the Lanark trains were all that came of it. The future high speed link following the R&C from Rutherglen and onwards to Carstairs will provide capacity and take WCML trains from this section.