Gloucester Area: Frequency, New Stations and Calling Patterns

[4141]

I can't see heavy rail getting into Cheltenham town centre again. I'd go for a fast people mover shuttle from the current station following the old rail route to somewhere in the St James area.

Pretty much impossible now in any form, without demolishing several blocks of apartments and half of Waitrose supermarket - even if you could get to the right of that, you'd still only end up in St James' Square, several hundred yard from the centre. Sadly, and I hate to say it, any chances of rail (light or heavy) from Lansdown on the old GWR line are long gone...

 

[70014IronDuke]

Pretty much impossible now in any form, without demolishing several blocks of apartments and half of Waitrose supermarket - even if you could get to the right of that, you'd still only end up in St James' Square, several hundred yard from the centre. Sadly, and I hate to say it, any chances of rail (light or heavy) from Lansdown on the old GWR line are long gone...

Don't give up so easily! I think your plan is really innovative - get it out there! Make the authorities take a look! OK, only one third may come to fruition, and it may take 50 years - who knows? But if you don't try, nowt's achieved.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Bristol to Brum needs to have a genuine inter-city service. The intermediate points (however 'stationed' and I support the MarkyT approach) should have fast services catching up with the very fast one at both ends. Perhaps include Parkway a an inter-city stop, due to its connections role. Indeed an HSL is indicated.

I'm not quite sure why you are saying this, HowardGWR. Are you saying Bristol to Brum does NOT have a 'genuine' inter-city service? Or that ideas promulgated here would negate what we have? Or ..... just musing?

 

[Western Lord]

I've removed Gloucester from the Cheltenham-London services because that would speed those services up quite a bit, and with the connections I've put in, removing that stop isn't really going to affect that many people too badly.

Speed them up for whom? The relatively few who get on at Cheltenham? Gloucester is the bigger of the two and has a better located station. Why not run non stop Cheltenham to Paddington, that would speed them up even more. Some peoples obsession with saving a few minutes end to end at the expense of intermediate passengers baffles me.

 

[4141]

Speed them up for whom? The relatively few who get on at Cheltenham? Gloucester is the bigger of the two and has a better located station. Why not run non stop Cheltenham to Paddington, that would speed them up even more. Some peoples obsession with saving a few minutes end to end at the expense of intermediate passengers baffles me.

Seconded - a thread which ostensibly was meant to improve services in the area now contains a suggestion to remove the Gloucester stop from London services...as many people there are still sore at losing most of their XC services to the South West and North West, good luck with trying to sell that one to them...

 

[si404]

Network Rail's long term plan is to have 2 London trains each hour on the Golden Valley line: 1 to Gloucester, 1 to Cheltenham (not via Gloucester). That seems to solve the issues of reversing without hindering service to London, but it's long term for a reason.

 

[HowardGWR]

I'm not quite sure why you are saying this, HowardGWR. Are you saying Bristol to Brum does NOT have a 'genuine' inter-city service? Or that ideas promulgated here would negate what we have? Or ..... just musing?

Bristol to Brum does not have a genuine inter-city service. Yes I know Gloucester and Worcester are cities but see below. Inter-city is a service to connect the major centres of population and industry (office work is industry as well as widget-making is). I advocate a step change which probably needs new infrastructure (perhaps the HSL) or a huge upgrade of the ex-MR line involving re-quadrupling through Glos-Chelt. A new XC service would start at Plymouth and call only at Exeter, Bristol (probably both stations), HS or upgraded MR line to Birmingham, then HS2 to (Sheffield?), Leeds then York, Newcastle and Edinburgh. The interleaving fast regional services would use the updated ex-MR infrastructure, electrified, between Bristol and Birmingham calling at Parkway, Gloucester (MarkyT Station) Cheltenham, Worcester Parkway and Bromsgrove and then further, possibly.
The key is a big upgrade of the Bristol to Brum line. Just look at the daily M5 performance and the cattle truck travelling conditions of XC, as justification, as well as what XC misses out, so arbitrarily, as stops.

 

[The Planner]

How is it not intercity now? It has two stops at places you would expect it to and takes 75 minutes on average, what sort of journey time are you expecting?

 

[Oxfordblues]

It's all the fault of Captain W.S.Moorsom who surveyed the route of the Birmingham & Gloucester Railway. Not only did he leave us with the perennial problem of the completely-avoidable Lickey Incline, he then missed out Droitwich, Worcester and Tewkesbury, and was going to avoid Cheltenham until the locals objected. The layout at Gloucester was determined by the Birmingham & Gloucester being standard gauge and the Great Western broad gauge, with a change of train at Gloucester Central. Only when the GWR converted to standard gauge was the direct avoiding line built, but without a station on it.

 

[B&I]

How is it not intercity now? It has two stops at places you would expect it to and takes 75 minutes on average, what sort of journey time are you expecting?

It generally manages to miss the 2 cities (and 2 biggest places) between Bristol and Birmingham

 

[HowardGWR]

How is it not intercity now? It has two stops at places you would expect it to and takes 75 minutes on average, what sort of journey time are you expecting?

I would be aiming for an hour, at most, the same as other inter-city services achieve. You can get from Taunton to Bristol (45 miles) in half an hour now on a Voyager. That bit is inter-city speed now (except that Taunton is a town!). Good old IKB.
I just wonder what is possible with updated infrastructure? So 90 mph start to stop is the aim.The point is that one needs to offer a service that beats the motorway hands down and also beats some internal air services. You can't keep stopping, if this is to be achieved. That's why a two tier service concept is needed IMO, as in see HS2 vs WCML plans. I think demand is grossly suppressed on this route at present and no wonder.

 

[Charlie M.]

Network Rail's long term plan is to have 2 London trains each hour on the Golden Valley line: 1 to Gloucester, 1 to Cheltenham (not via Gloucester). That seems to solve the issues of reversing without hindering service to London, but it's long term for a reason.

I would welcome this anyday, But aren’t there a few things to consider here before this would happen.

You’d still get people changing at GCR for CHelt and Chelt for Glos? Gloucester needs clear paths all the time to get in an out of the station, so would a new platform for this service, possibly MetroWest and the current GWR services be useful as a bay or something else? A turn around would require at least 20-25 minutes for staff, cleaning, reversing, resetting, getting ready for duty, boarding and then departing?

 

[Charlie M.]

My 2025-2030 plan for Gloucester Area on the basis of no new station/s.

1. Increase Golden Valley line frequency to 2tph or 3tp2h

2. A new platform at Gloucester next to the current platform 1 or linking onto the end of platform 4(?)

3. New hourly service between Birmingham and Bristol/Taunton calling at Parkway, Cheltenham, Gloucester Central, Bristol Parkway and Temple Meads. Around 4 coaches with first class accommodation offering a new InterCity service for Bristol BHam passengers. Extended services at Weekends towards Weston in the summer and Taunton at peak times.

4. If MetroWest does reach Gloucester, an opportunity of new stations between Yate and Gloucester could be providing and giving opertunities for GWR to run a slow service to Worcester/Malvern hourly

5. Call a few more XC services a day at Central.

 

[jayah]

Gloucester is a well populated city and has an ok railway service. However, it is not served by CrossCountry trains to the north and south and adds on nearly 12 minutes to HST journeys.

Previously, plans for a Gloucestershire Parkway was put into place but then scrapped.

Yes, a new station is most ideal. But this wouldn’t be situated on the triangle near to the centre because the built a useless Morrison’s there instead. What are your thoughts on this? What is the likelyhood of a new station and would a resignaling help or what other solutions are there?

The supermarkets are grossly over extended. Everybody wants home delivery, not the great weekly shop. Morrisons is a tin shed with a car park. You need a new station on the main line with all services stopping there. It would take 10mins off the London - Cheltenham journey at a stroke, far more than goodness knows how many £bn on electrification will save. You then need some sort of people mover shuttle to link it all effortlessly to Gloucester centre, followed by the same for Bristol Temple Meads.

It is a sad truth the flawed Worcester Parkway, convenient for only one relatively minor suburb of Worcester, has got the green light instead.

 

[jayah]

Network Rail's long term plan is to have 2 London trains each hour on the Golden Valley line: 1 to Gloucester, 1 to Cheltenham (not via Gloucester). That seems to solve the issues of reversing without hindering service to London, but it's long term for a reason.

At say £10 per mile, that would add about £12m a year in totally unnecessary cost and make the congestion around Gloucester even worse as well as reducing the number of trains between the two biggest places in the county. For maybe £100-150m they could fix the problem properly.

 

[Llanigraham]

The supermarkets are grossly over extended. Everybody wants home delivery, not the great weekly shop. Morrisons is a tin shed with a car park. You need a new station on the main line with all services stopping there. It would take 10mins off the London - Cheltenham journey at a stroke, far more than goodness knows how many £bn on electrification will save. You then need some sort of people mover shuttle to link it all effortlessly to Gloucester centre, followed by the same for Bristol Temple Meads.

It is a sad truth the flawed Worcester Parkway, convenient for only one relatively minor suburb of Worcester, has got the green light instead.

There are SO many incorrect or inaccurate comments in that post!
Many people do NOT want home deliveries.
Most supermarkets are tin sheds with a car park, so why pick on just this one?
No, it MIGHT take some time off the London journey, but what then happens when the train hits to bottleneck closer to London?
Who pays for this wonderous "people mover"?
Where are you going to put this wonderous thing in Bristol?
Worcester Parkway is NOT just for one suburb, minor or not, but will draw in passengers from the whole area to the South and East of the City plus out the problem of congested access and poor parking provisions at both it's sataions, plus it should improve services.

 

[Western Lord]

It would take 10mins off the London - Cheltenham journey at a stroke

The object of this service is not London-Cheltenham. Cheltenham is not important enough to have trains to London unless they are also serving Gloucester as well.

 

[nick.c]

Network Rail's long term plan is to have 2 London trains each hour on the Golden Valley line: 1 to Gloucester, 1 to Cheltenham (not via Gloucester). That seems to solve the issues of reversing without hindering service to London, but it's long term for a reason.

I think the reason it’s a long term aspiration is that Network Rail forecast that it will take until around 2040 for demand to reach a level to justify 2 TPH. However, I suspect that there might actually already be a lot of suppressed demand.

Alternatively, imagine if Gloucester has a station on the north-south mainline. Instead of running services into Gloucester and Cheltenham separately you could run them both into Cheltenham via Gloucester Parkway.

Cheltenham passengers

Pros: A direct service to London every 30 minutes rather than hourly.

Cons: It would take 5 mins longer due to the need to stop at Gloucester Parkway – but it would avoid the additional 7-minute delay involved by running into and reversing out of Gloucester City.

Gloucester passengers

Pros: A direct service to London every 30 minutes rather than hourly.

Cons: Some passengers originating or wanting to visit Gloucester City would have to travel a little further to join the train – but MarkyT’s people mover would sort that!

 

[nick.c]

My 2025-2030 plan for Gloucester Area on the basis of no new station/s.

1. Increase Golden Valley line frequency to 2tph or 3tp2h

2. A new platform at Gloucester next to the current platform 1 or linking onto the end of platform 4(?)

3. New hourly service between Birmingham and Bristol/Taunton calling at Parkway, Cheltenham, Gloucester Central, Bristol Parkway and Temple Meads. Around 4 coaches with first class accommodation offering a new InterCity service for Bristol BHam passengers. Extended services at Weekends towards Weston in the summer and Taunton at peak times.

4. If MetroWest does reach Gloucester, an opportunity of new stations between Yate and Gloucester could be providing and giving opertunities for GWR to run a slow service to Worcester/Malvern hourly

5. Call a few more XC services a day at Central.

In order to improve rail services in the Gloucester Area – and the number and range of ideas posted on this forum clearly suggests that the need is widely recognised – then I think that the alternatives are either to accept the constraints imposed by the existing infrastructure, but compensate by running more services particularly into Gloucester City -
OR improve the infrastructure so that Gloucester can share existing train services that already run and currently only stop at Cheltenham.

If Gloucester and Cheltenham were one entity, a city of around 250,000 it would most likely be served by one central station, and we wouldn’t have this problem. Of course, the reality is that they are not.

My instincts on this is that in the long term the most efficient and robust solution would be to improve the infrastructure. The question is how best to do this.

 

[jayah]

The object of this service is not London-Cheltenham. Cheltenham is not important enough to have trains to London unless they are also serving Gloucester as well.

That is the point. They need to serve Gloucester, but without reversing.

 

[jayah]

There are SO many incorrect or inaccurate comments in that post!
Many people do NOT want home deliveries.
Most supermarkets are tin sheds with a car park, so why pick on just this one?
No, it MIGHT take some time off the London journey, but what then happens when the train hits to bottleneck closer to London?
Who pays for this wonderous "people mover"?
Where are you going to put this wonderous thing in Bristol?
Worcester Parkway is NOT just for one suburb, minor or not, but will draw in passengers from the whole area to the South and East of the City plus out the problem of congested access and poor parking provisions at both it's sataions, plus it should improve services.

The supermarkets opened far too much floor space in the 1990s and are already trying to close down some of it.

The shift to the discounters and online means most of the money is now spend in the deep discount stores, local metro style shops or online. Looking at the local area you have a Lidl and both a huge Asda and Sainsbury's yards away. The existence of Morrisons is really not a reason to stop this scheme.

 

[MarkyT]

I would have thought Morrisons would be very happy having a major station next door in Gloucester with a big car park. Every rail passenger driving or being dropped or picked up there is a potential additional supermarket customer. That's why I would suggest a large shared decked parking solution. Taking it further, the site with its fast people mover to Central could also offer a park and ride solution for the city centre while also offering development potential in the immediate area for a second satellite business centre.

 

[Llanigraham]

The supermarkets opened far too much floor space in the 1990s and are already trying to close down some of it.

The shift to the discounters and online means most of the money is now spend in the deep discount stores, local metro style shops or online. Looking at the local area you have a Lidl and both a huge Asda and Sainsbury's yards away. The existence of Morrisons is really not a reason to stop this scheme.

So your gripe is about supermarkets in general.
And what about your other inaccuraccies?

 

[jayah]

So your gripe is about supermarkets in general.
And what about your other inaccuraccies?

I don't have a problem with supermarkets.
But it is wrong to say that a supermarket should be allowed to stop an important scheme like this that would benefit the whole region.

The trains will use the same paths into London as without this scheme so bottlenecks are not a factor.

As for Worcester most of the city is far more convenient for the existing stations, if there are parking problems they should be addressed without building a station in the middle of nowhere, serving nowhere.

 

[Llanigraham]

I don't have a problem with supermarkets.
But it is wrong to say that a supermarket should be allowed to stop an important scheme like this that would benefit the whole region.

The trains will use the same paths into London as without this scheme so bottlenecks are not a factor.

As for Worcester most of the city is far more convenient for the existing stations, if there are parking problems they should be addressed without building a station in the middle of nowhere, serving nowhere.

By that comment I presume that you are proposing to close the Morrisons down, even though it appears to be very popular and purchase the land? Good luck with that unless you have got VERY deep pockets. It certainly wouldn't give you enough left to build some fancy "people mover".

If the trains are going to be 10 minutes quicker from Gloucester then they will NOT be using the same paths, therefore it is a factor.

As an ex-Worcester resident, and having lived in 3 different parts of the city, I can assure you that Foregate St and Shrub Hill are not convenient for many areas, and there is about as much chance of building extra car parks in the City Centre as there is me flying to the moon. Access to the new Parkway station will be much easier from many areas, including the villages around the City, which you seem to have ignored. And I wouldn't call close to a motorway junction, 3 A roads and Norton village to be exactly "in the middle of no-where"!

 

[Western Lord]

That is the point. They need to serve Gloucester, but without reversing.

Why? What is the problem that some seem to have with reversing? It adds a few minutes to the last leg of the journey to Cheltenham, which is lucky to be able to get services to London as an add on.

 

[jayah]

Why? What is the problem that some seem to have with reversing? It adds a few minutes to the last leg of the journey to Cheltenham, which is lucky to be able to get services to London as an add on.

Cheltenham is a very important city and should expect a London service that doesn't waste 10min backing out of Gloucester. There aren't many ways to save 10min that come as cheap as a station on the avoiding line.

 

[superalbs]

Interestingly, the Cheltenham Spa Express is slower than a change at Gloucester (saving six minutes).

 

[nick.c]

Cheltenham is a very important city and should expect a London service that doesn't waste 10min backing out of Gloucester. There aren't many ways to save 10min that come as cheap as a station on the avoiding line.

With the very small proviso that technically Cheltenham is a town and not a city, totally agree with you. Effectively both the City of Gloucester and Cheltenham Town are very similar both population wise and economically. GCHQ is based in Cheltenham and that alone means that there is a need for good communications with London.

 

[nick.c]

If there was a station on the main line at Gloucester, GWR or their successor would look for an excuse to stop their London trains there instead of going into Central and reversing. This might not be good for the city centre.

Thank you for raising this very important point.

If a new Gloucester station on the main Bristol to Birmingham line is ever to be approved, then not only will it need a robust business case but it will also need the backing of the City Council. This may be problematic.

I may be wrong but from what I have read I get the impression that the City Council are not keen on a Gloucester Parkway as they think it would undermine the existing City station which they regard as a key strategic asset. Although I understand their position – it is after all the Council’s job to do all they can to support Gloucester City – I think this view can be challenged.

Gloucester City Station has a supposedly much vaunted location adjacent to the city centre that provides access to a restricted range of train services and in 2016/17 chalked up around 1.5 million entries and exits. In contrast Cheltenham Spa station, located in a relatively quiet leafy suburb and a good 15-minute walk from the town centre but providing access to all rail services running through the region, chalked up just under 2.4 million entries and exits. The lesson here is that quality of train service appears to be a much bigger factor in determining how busy a station will be than that stations precise location.

Concerning Gloucester, if it is necessary for passengers using the current city centre station to resort to car, taxi or bus to travel between the station and their origin / destination in Gloucester, then for many people (perhaps even the majority) a Parkway station with ample parking and avoiding the congested low capacity city centre roads would almost certainly be more convenient. If Gloucester City station does have any strategic advantage, then it is solely down to being within walking distance of key destinations in the city. The really key question is how many organisations are there whose prosperity really depends on being within easy walking distance of the current city station?

Overall, Gloucester has a vibrant economy but a great deal of activity takes place in business parks on its eastern flanks. There is a wide mix of both engineering and service companies and a Parkway station would serve this market very well. It would also better serve the needs of the many Gloucester residents who live in the surrounding residential areas and who commute daily to Bristol and Birmingham and others who visit London regularly.

So addressing edwin_m’s very legitimate concern that a Parkway station “might not be good for the city centre”, in most cases I would agree that a city centre station would trump a parkway. However, and it would need some proper research to fully confirm this - given the specific railway geography of Gloucester - I doubt that a new Parkway station (that would be additional to the existing city centre station) would be detrimental to the city centre at all. Rather I think that it would prove to be a great success and the much improved connectivity and capacity it would provide would be highly beneficial to the whole of the city region including the city centre.