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Go Cornwall Bus

TheGrandWazoo

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I can understand the tales of woe that you mentioned but being here in the middle of it all that is how it seems. For a company that is supposedly highly respected and are not chancers it doesn't seem like it.
From where I am it ALMOST seems that they have taken a chance and ALMOST seemed to have expected to come into cornwall expecting everything to be done ready for them. They have OTS in falmouth and hopleys near truro to run their own services but the ones in around newquay truro and st austall they dont have anybody except themselves and lot of help from council/cormac.at the moment they dont seem to have thought about the small issues and have ploughed in and hoped for the best which is why i personally dont have much respect or hold them in high regard at the moment.
From here in the middle of it all it feels like it is one big big mash up and passengers in Cornwall are going to be confused and disheartened with local bus network.
5 years ago FK were crap but over last 5 years it got better but now it's on knife edge as which way Cornwall bus network goes

Alternatively, you can look at their strategy

They have formed alliances with OTS, Hopleys and Travel Cornwall - that massively derisks their proposal. Where there isn't that option of a local partner, they are doing it themselves. Turn it round the other way.... if First Kernow had won the package, what would they have done in Bude for the local services, or around Liskeard or Launceston or Callington?

As for the help of Cormac..... they would have needed to obtain parking and cleaning facilities from someone, and they would have done. I've not seen any evidence that they are paying below the market rate and arguably, it makes it much easier to get a number of sites from one supplier than having to broker a load of separate deals - again, it derisks the process.

The issues are really around the strategic approach of the council; I don't really see much to berate Go Ahead about,
 
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TheGrandWazoo

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I still think in 6 years the TFC network will collapse, FK will carry on, taking over it again like they did when Western Greyhound went. I personally think the council are stupid when for the last 10 years they've been working to get First to invest as much as it has in the last 3 years in Cornwall, only to give up and go to Go Ahead.

There's an 8 year deal. Go Ahead will be protected contractually even if there is a break after 4. The money is there from the devolution deal. Why would it collapse?
 

devonexpress

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Alternatively, you can look at their strategy

They have formed alliances with OTS, Hopleys and Travel Cornwall - that massively derisks their proposal. Where there isn't that option of a local partner, they are doing it themselves. Turn it round the other way.... if First Kernow had won the package, what would they have done in Bude for the local services, or around Liskeard or Launceston or Callington?

As for the help of Cormac..... they would have needed to obtain parking and cleaning facilities from someone, and they would have done. I've not seen any evidence that they are paying below the market rate and arguably, it makes it much easier to get a number of sites from one supplier than having to broker a load of separate deals - again, it derisks the process.

The issues are really around the strategic approach of the council; I don't really see much to berate Go Ahead about,
First already had services to Bude and as you know used to operated in Launceston via Callington depot. Given First bought Summercourt depot from WG i'm sure finding a depot in Bude, Launceston or nearby wouldn't have been an issue.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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First already had services to Bude and as you know used to operated in Launceston via Callington depot. Given First bought Summercourt depot from WG i'm sure finding a depot in Bude, Launceston or nearby wouldn't have been an issue.

In much the same way as Go Ahead hadn't an issue in obtaining depot sites. It's the same (non) issue.

First may have had services into Bude but not to operate local services unless you fancy running empty from Bodmin - 60 miles dead mileage!!
 

richw

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I've not seen any evidence that they are paying below the market rate
Corserv/Cormac potentially breaching competition rules in general (not necessarily on this contract) was raised in the last council meeting prior to lockdown by a councillor. I’ve seen no further information other than a one liner that a councillor alleged that corserv/Cormac don’t pay rent nor business rates on their yards (Owned by CC) and can therefore undercut Commercial competitors in contractors.
 

richw

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A company owned entirely by Cornwall Council uses officers owned by the authority without paying any rent.

Corserv is a stand-alone independent, profit-making company that includes a number of other businesses, such as Cormac, Cornwall Housing and Cornwall Airport Newquay.


It is wholly owned by Cornwall Council and operates from offices the council owns. The two are separate to the extent that the council has even loaned money to Corserv, among £200 million it has lent. Read that full story here.


But its own councillors were stunned to learn that it is not charged any rent.

Questions were raised when a meeting of the council's customer and support services overview and scrutiny committee quizzed staff from Corserv, including managing director Cath Robinson and finance officer Phil Mawston, on Tuesday (March 10).

 

berneyarms

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Transport for Wales Trains, Scotrail ring a bell? Cornwall always try to copy. Originally First rebranded the ops as First Kernow, then you may remember 33660 carried busKernow, due to rumors Cornwall wanted a franchise bus system, this was later changed to Cornwall by Kernow as a way of First showing it's commitment to being a locally branded ops.

The National Transport Authority in Ireland have established the Transport for Ireland brand to become the main portal for information on public transport operating throughout the country.

There's nothing wrong with establishing a brand like that, which is easy to remember, and which, in the event that the operator changes, doesn't need to be renamed again.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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richw

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Sorry - are you stating that Go Ahead aren't paying the market rate for the facilities?
Their sub contractor isn’t, and is alleged by a councillor they are undercutting commercial competitors in various fields. As per my post I said there is no mention whether it affects this contract
 

MotCO

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Their sub contractor isn’t, and is alleged by a councillor they are undercutting commercial competitors in various fields. As per my post I said there is no mention whether it affects this contract

The sub-contractor is alleged to not be paying rent so the bid price should be lower, yet from what I understand earlier in this thread, the Go-Ahead tender, of which this sub-contractor formed a part, paid more than the bid from First. It doesn't quite stack up.
 

Busaholic

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Hmmm....sounds like a bit of alleging and innuendo without any actual facts.
I'm not in a position at the moment to be providing chapter and verse on this, having been blue-lighted to Treliske Hospital in the early hours of Sunday morning (non-Covid related, I hasten to add) but I have all the paper press reports in relation to this at home, which appear to confirm that Corserv/Cormac neither pay rent nor business rates to Cornwall Council, on the basis of answers to councillors by the Corserv Chief Executive: unfortunately, it's not helped by apparent ignorance of both the questioning councillor and the (free) newssheet between rent and rates, but there is sufficient evidence, I believe, that nothing is paid. I'll attempt to provide refs/quotes when I'm able to.
 

Busaholic

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The sub-contractor is alleged to not be paying rent so the bid price should be lower, yet from what I understand earlier in this thread, the Go-Ahead tender, of which this sub-contractor formed a part, paid more than the bid from First. It doesn't quite stack up.
See my post 556 of 29/3/20.
 

devonexpress

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The National Transport Authority in Ireland have established the Transport for Ireland brand to become the main portal for information on public transport operating throughout the country.

There's nothing wrong with establishing a brand like that, which is easy to remember, and which, in the event that the operator changes, doesn't need to be renamed again.
Fair point, but in Cornwall the majority of bus services have been run by First Group since 1996, and before that Western National since the early 1920s. Transport for Cornwall is meaningless, vanity project for the council to promote being Cornish, even though Red has never been part of Cornwalls colours. Having spent most of my childhood in Cornwall the local authority has a history of splashing money on vanity projects, the Cornish language being one of them. Going back to the bus operation I don't see how it will be sustainable, most of the routes are not going to make a profit, therefore the only way to keep these services running is to continue throwing cash at them.

In contract, Devon, the county next door has a thriving bus network, with many local services being supported in part by the council and run by Stagecoach or a local operator, even with the cuts of the last 10 years, the bus network is still very good and Stagecoach work to keep as many bus services going by joining them up with more busy ones to make them break even or make a profit, this is a very good example of what can be done if you work with the operators rather than bringing in a brand new one to run a contact with limited experience and having to rely on local bus companies to provide some services.
 

Busaholic

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Yes - but as the poster says, PCB didn’t undercut FK and we’ve seen no more evidence of impropriety as we’ve had from David Icke about 5G!
Not quite sure what David Icke has to do with all this. Private Eye has chronicled the scandals and corruption of local councils in every issue since the 1960s, and they've never run out of material! The creation of ever-larger authorities and associated fudging between the (notionally) elected councillors and not-for-profit companies created by the local authority, with much opaqueness in many cases, has only added exponentially to it.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Not quite sure what David Icke has to do with all this. Private Eye has chronicled the scandals and corruption of local councils in every issue since the 1960s, and they've never run out of material! The creation of ever-larger authorities and associated fudging between the (notionally) elected councillors and not-for-profit companies created by the local authority, with much opaqueness in many cases, has only added exponentially to it.
Yes - I’m well aware of Rotten Boroughs but in this instance, it’s a bit of an allegation and some innuendo. Talk and suggestion but no actual evidence. That is the parallel with Icke.
 

MotCO

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See my post 556 of 29/3/20.

Your post #556 says that no rent or rates is being paid "at the moment" by Corserv for services provided to Cornwall CC. Corserv is also a sub-contractor to Go-Ahead. It cannot be stated with any certainty whether or not the sub-contractor is charging Go-Ahead for rent or rates, or whether the sub-contract agreement makes any reference to the payment of rent and rates.

I am also concerned that we may be straying into legal issues, so can I respectfully suggest we rule a line under this discussion?
 
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Busaholic

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Your post #556 says that no rent or rates is being paid "at the moment" by Corserv for services provided to Cornwall CC. Corserv is also a sub-contractor to Go-Ahead. It cannot be stated with any certainty whether or not the sub-contractor is charging Go-Ahead for rent or rates, or whether the sub-contract agreement makes any reference to the payment of rent and rates.

You may smell a rat, but at the moment, that is all there is. You say you have evidence of unusual contractual arrangements between Cornwall CC and Corserv in the form of press reports, but do you have any evidence of unusual contractual arrangements between Corserv and Go-Ahead?
Most of my fairly scant experience of legal matters was gained in a local authority and then the Probation Service, but I'd say with a degree of certainty that IF Go-Ahead were being charged a figure in relation to business rates by Corserv on a premises for which no such rates were being charged by Cornwall Council that there could be recourse to challenging that contract at some future point. The 'press reports', given that most of the local press just regurgitates P.R. bumpf and suchlike, claim to contain actual quotes from named councillors, officers and Corserv personnel so, if they are damned, it's from their own mouths and not from my interpretation. The ''at the moment'' was certainly a direct quote from Corserv at the Cornwall Council meeting. All such meetings now suspended indefinitely, by the way.
 

Busaholic

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Yes - I’m well aware of Rotten Boroughs but in this instance, it’s a bit of an allegation and some innuendo. Talk and suggestion but no actual evidence. That is the parallel with Icke.
I find that insulting, but you carry on, if you so wish.
 

carlberry

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Fair point, but in Cornwall the majority of bus services have been run by First Group since 1996, and before that Western National since the early 1920s. Transport for Cornwall is meaningless, vanity project for the council to promote being Cornish, even though Red has never been part of Cornwalls colours. Having spent most of my childhood in Cornwall the local authority has a history of splashing money on vanity projects, the Cornish language being one of them. Going back to the bus operation I don't see how it will be sustainable, most of the routes are not going to make a profit, therefore the only way to keep these services running is to continue throwing cash at them.

In contract, Devon, the county next door has a thriving bus network, with many local services being supported in part by the council and run by Stagecoach or a local operator, even with the cuts of the last 10 years, the bus network is still very good and Stagecoach work to keep as many bus services going by joining them up with more busy ones to make them break even or make a profit, this is a very good example of what can be done if you work with the operators rather than bringing in a brand new one to run a contact with limited experience and having to rely on local bus companies to provide some services.
The routes that are covered by the Transport for Cornwall operation are the subsidised routes so it hardly needs a crystal ball to predict that they'll need to have cash thrown at them. Indeed that is what the contract specifies, for the next eight years.

In Devon the subsidised routes are contracted separately and there's no need for a common colour however they also need to have cash thrown at them (as they wont run otherwise). Devon has also had recent problems with operators of it's tendered services suddenly shutting up shop for various reasons resulting in random changes, it might prefer it if it had one big operator doing all of them!

Stagecoach don't run services at a loss any more than First or Go Ahead do.

Whilst Go Ahead starting up in Cornwall isn't popular with some people it's pushing it to suggest that it's in some ways a new operator with limited experience, the Plymouth transport undertaking predates Western National for instance.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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I find that insulting, but you carry on, if you so wish.
No offence meant.

However, there is innuendo and supposition being made that there is something untoward. If it’s being suggested that there is something in relation to the Go Ahead contract, then no evidence has been produced. None whatsoever.

In that case, I share the concerns raised earlier.

If it’s not about Go Ahead but Corserv in general, then I’d question the relevance on this thread.
 

devonexpress

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The routes that are covered by the Transport for Cornwall operation are the subsidised routes so it hardly needs a crystal ball to predict that they'll need to have cash thrown at them. Indeed that is what the contract specifies, for the next eight years.

In Devon the subsidised routes are contracted separately and there's no need for a common colour however they also need to have cash thrown at them (as they wont run otherwise). Devon has also had recent problems with operators of it's tendered services suddenly shutting up shop for various reasons resulting in random changes, it might prefer it if it had one big operator doing all of them!

Stagecoach don't run services at a loss any more than First or Go Ahead do.

Whilst Go Ahead starting up in Cornwall isn't popular with some people it's pushing it to suggest that it's in some ways a new operator with limited experience, the Plymouth transport undertaking predates Western National for instance.
The last service I know in Devon that got dropped was the Torbay routes by LocalLink going into administration.
 

Yarp1

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I suppose the one good thing that has come about with tfc is that the likes of sumnercourt travel,OTS and Hopleys have secured work and payment by agreeing to do routes as otherwise I think with covid their other work like private hires and various contracts may well have dried up and caused them financial problems but that is only my speculation. So guess should be grateful that pcb/GA got them involved
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Fair point, but in Cornwall the majority of bus services have been run by First Group since 1996, and before that Western National since the early 1920s. Transport for Cornwall is meaningless, vanity project for the council to promote being Cornish, even though Red has never been part of Cornwalls colours. Having spent most of my childhood in Cornwall the local authority has a history of splashing money on vanity projects, the Cornish language being one of them. Going back to the bus operation I don't see how it will be sustainable, most of the routes are not going to make a profit, therefore the only way to keep these services running is to continue throwing cash at them.

In contract, Devon, the county next door has a thriving bus network, with many local services being supported in part by the council and run by Stagecoach or a local operator, even with the cuts of the last 10 years, the bus network is still very good and Stagecoach work to keep as many bus services going by joining them up with more busy ones to make them break even or make a profit, this is a very good example of what can be done if you work with the operators rather than bringing in a brand new one to run a contact with limited experience and having to rely on local bus companies to provide some services.

To echo @carlberry, you can point to the different heritages of both FK and PCB. FK is the successor to Western National (1929) or even further back to GWR in Helston (1903), but then again, Plymouth Citybus is the successor to Plymouth Corporation from 1892. The idea is that PCB are some "Johnny Come Lately" or a cowboy outfit who would have O licenses set up is just not credible.

In terms of Cornwall Council, they have (in recent years) done a good job in promoting public transport. We shouldn't forget that they have largely protected their network of tendered services in contrast to many other counties; Somerset and Dorset have butchered their bus budgets and even Devon CC (who I think are a good pro-bus council) have had to make cuts to services. Note that the number of journeys in Devon has fallen markedly from 28.7m in 2014/5 to 24.2m in 2017/8 - not as "thriving" as you might think.

That's not a criticism of Stagecoach or DCC but a reflection of the impact of cuts and wider issues. Both council and operator have worked hard to retain links and there's no small amount of subsidy paid to operators to keep uneconomic but socially necessary services going.

CC have invested in the 16 e200mmc, bus shelters, and I believe, funded the refurbishment of the bus stations in the main. All of that is good stuff and to be applauded. However, they seem to have lost their marbles with the money being lavished, and some fundamental baffling decisions. Not least....
  • Creation of a number of brand new services that seem to have little or no defined requirement. @richw is spot on when he points out that the Launceston to Bodmin Parkway will be of use only for passengers heading west. Is there much of demand for passengers from Launceston and Five Lanes to get a train west? Or to travel to Bodmin?
  • Because of the above, then the Newquay to Redruth service (that might have some merit) is given a two hourly frequency which seems too low - it would have made more sense to invest in one route that might have had a chance of success, than to neuter it at the expense of another
  • The introduction of early morning and later services on routes like Falmouth locals (I think that's right and they carry mainly pass holder) but a major established route like the T2 to St Ives has nothing after 2000.
  • As I said before, if they wanted to really get people to modal shift on buses from cars, why weren't they proposing something like a higher frequency network in Truro where there is sufficient population density to really have an effect?
I really don't blame Go Ahead for this. They haven't set the network - the council has, and it was the council who set the timescale. Despite the ominous warnings of some, PCB did get outbases and depots sorted, did get sufficient vehicles mobilised. Yes, they were always going to have a challenge in getting staff but many of the issues that PCB have would have been equally challenging for FK in the East of the county. Had FK won, they'd have need a vehicle small enough to serve Polruan, or to obtain an outbase to operate Bude locals, or to recruit drivers in Liskeard....and I'm sure they would have.
 

carlberry

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Didn’t Turners of Chumleigh throw in all their bus services since then?

I guess Carl is also thinking of other firms like Beacon Bus who had a sizeable network but also closed.
I was thinking of Target which I think effected Devon and Carmel as well. However most councils have had an instance of an operator suddenly closing and taking out contract and school services that they suddenly have to cover with zero notice.
 

richw

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The idea is that PCB are some "Johnny Come Lately" or a cowboy outfit who would have O licenses set up is just not credible.
You’re right in your assumption in theory.
Unfortunately like yarp1 being stuck in the middle of it all, the Go Ahead element of Transport for Cornwall is conducting itself on the ground in a manner expected by the most cowboy of operators. It’s embarrassing to the industry that Such a large group conduct the way they are. some of the antics I’ve witnessed is unbelievable, and quite frankly you wouldn’t believe if it was typed! All I’ll say is it’s a shame covid is preventing yourself and others being able to observe what’s happening.
To quote a Summercourt Travel driver “they are making us (Summercourt Travel) look professional”
 

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