Go Cornwall Bus

[Jamesbus80]

I really do hope these are in conjunction with spare vehicles and staff (although, having read the Kernow thread, there is not really any such thing as ‘spare’ as costs mount up exponentially and it can be cheaper to have a vehicle just sat there.

Although I suppose it doesn’t matter what I think, I am disappointed with this. Cornwall quite clearly cannot sustain two competitive bus networks (as evidenced from recent history with the issues of Western Greyhound and First Devon & Cornwall before that) and it seems irresponsible, at a time where the bus industry is under such strain, to start launching such blatant competition - although clearly not illegal and indeed very much permitted. I can accept perhaps First have expanded their network, but this is all self-funded and not at any benefit of subsidy.

Do we know if Go Ahead need to cut back any routes yet due to subsidy overlaps with First’s increased competitive services? I’ve not heard anything.

I must be honest (and I could be wrong), I may be being influenced on my holiday to Fowey earlier in the summer seeing First’s competitive 24 arriving and then Go Ahead’s tendered 25 receiving just as much patronage. I possibly need to get my facts straight, as I don’t know if all or just some of the 25 journeys are tendered, but it just seemed unfair (appreciate they go different routes but the Fowey to Par or St Austell holiday maker doesn’t know that).

 

[Andyh82]

Looks like things could be getting interesting with commercial registrations by Go Ahead against First

New bus route between Falmouth and Truro among a number of timetable changes

A new bus service between Falmouth and Truro is to launch from next month as part of a timetable upgrade to see extra buses on the roads.

www.falmouthpacket.co.uk

Let's see what First do as a response....

Well technically they already are responding, by making the college network more integrated, and introducing more trips that could be used by members of the public (without having to travel out at 8am and home at 4pm), taking Kernow buses into areas that these days are TfC places.

So this may be a response to that.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Well technically they already are responding, by making the college network more integrated, and introducing more trips that could be used by members of the public (without having to travel out at 8am and home at 4pm), taking Kernow buses into areas that these days are TfC places.

So this may be a response to that.

Technically they're not. It would appear that the enhanced network is an initiative with Truro College albeit with the ability for non-college students to use them as an extension of the First Kernow network.

Whether Go Ahead is responding to that development with these registrations, I don't know. Perhaps it was always part of their plan? Certainly, it was something a concern that they could use this bridgehead, operating commercially using a base of tendered services, as happened in North Devon.

Certainly, the Falmouth to Truro registration catches the eye and it will be interesting to see how this develops.

 

[Busaholic]

Technically they're not. It would appear that the enhanced network is an initiative with Truro College albeit with the ability for non-college students to use them as an extension of the First Kernow network.

Whether Go Ahead is responding to that development with these registrations, I don't know. Perhaps it was always part of their plan? Certainly, it was something a concern that they could use this bridgehead, operating commercially using a base of tendered services, as happened in North Devon.

Certainly, the Falmouth to Truro registration catches the eye and it will be interesting to see how this develops.

Go Ahead's no. 2 service from Penzance to Praa Sands does carry a few passengers now, but I've still not seen any double decker journey that justifies that capacity. I daresay on a rainy day in Marazion at this time of year an afternoon or early evening journey towards Penzance might attract some custom, even on an open topper if one turned up first, but you can hardly build a commercial network on that. I wonder if Truro to Falmouth will be semi express, or at least ignore Penryn as not being the student market it wishes to attract? I've no evidence for that, by the way, maybe just thinking how I might pitch it!

 

[richw]

I wonder if Truro to Falmouth will be semi express, or at least ignore Penryn as not being the student market it wishes to attract?

The F1 timetable shows it coming main road Truro to Treluswell then left along to penryn quay skipping the town and uni. Almost a reincarnation of the X89 from many years ago

 

[Goldfish62]

Go Ahead's no. 2 service from Penzance to Praa Sands does carry a few passengers now, but I've still not seen any double decker journey that justifies that capacity.

It appears to utilise a double deck needed for school journeys and which otherwise would be sat doing nothing. As @GrandWazoo alludes to it's a case of operating a competitive commercial service off the back of supported work. Back in the early deregulation days London Buses districts got stamped on for trying this as it was deemed as being grant leakage.

I really do hope these are in conjunction with spare vehicles and staff (although, having read the Kernow thread, there is not really any such thing as ‘spare’ as costs mount up exponentially and it can be cheaper to have a vehicle just sat there.

Yes, the revenue from the new journeys has got to cover at least fuel/tyres and staff costs. If it doesn't then you may as well just sit the bus in the shed during the day and just use it on tendered work.

Cornwall quite clearly cannot sustain two competitive bus networks (as evidenced from recent history with the issues of Western Greyhound and First Devon & Cornwall before that) and it seems irresponsible, at a time where the bus industry is under such strain, to start launching such blatant competition - although clearly not illegal and indeed very much permitted. I can accept perhaps First have expanded their network, but this is all self-funded and not at any benefit of subsidy.

I very much agree. Just to point out though, as with the majority of local bus services in England since March 2020 First's routes have received emergency government subsidy and certainly some operators will have taken advantage of this to test the water with new services. The funding is heavily reduced from next month and ends altogether on 31st March 2022. That's going to be crunch time for bus networks everywhere, especially as local authorities will also inevitably start cutting support for bus services.

That 1st April is the government's target date for local authorities to introduce their enhanced partnerships under "Bus Back Better" is I'm sure a pure coincidence...

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yes, the revenue from the new journeys has got to cover at least fuel/tyres and staff costs. If it doesn't then you may as well just sit the bus in the shed during the day and just use it on tendered work.

Absolutely right - no point in operating if you're not covering your marginal costs (unless you have other motives )

It's an interesting move given the current state of things

 

[Busaholic]

Absolutely right - no point in operating if you're not covering your marginal costs (unless you have other motives )

It's an interesting move given the current state of things

I can understand why Go Ahead might think such a service could be a goer, assuming it gets some publicity, and they wouldn't be risking too much on an hourly headway. I assume the rail branch to Falmouth is often rammed, particularly when the students are back, and in any case Truro Station is not well situated for those wishing to shop in the city. I'd certainly consider using the service if I was a Falmouth resident.

 

[Jamesbus80]

The excellent Plymothian Transit blog has signposted a blog entry called 'The Tragic Missed Opportunity of Cornwall' - worth a read if you have not had a chance. Not aimed at First or Go Ahead but more at the issues caused for bus services due to the retendering exercise from a family who use public transport to go on holiday.

I've not done links before on here so apologies if this goes a little wrong!

Plymothian Transit: The Tragic Missed Opportunity of Cornwall (link to Freewheeling blog)

Freewheeling: The Tragic Missed Opportunity of Cornwall

If there is one bus network, other than my immediate local one, that I know well, it is the bus network of West Cornwall.

As a family, we’ve been visiting Penzance at least once a year since I was 5.

But this year, I was particularly looking forward to our easiest-ever visit.

I’d read a lot about the ambitions of Cornwall Council in improving the bus network - and the money they’ve been given by central Government to help.

As a car-free family visiting a rural area, I assumed we’d benefit from more buses and better service.

But I’m afraid we were in for a serious disappointment.

There's a lot more on the blog.

 

[MotCO]

The excellent Plymothian Transit blog has signposted a blog entry called 'The Tragic Missed Opportunity of Cornwall' - worth a read if you have not had a chance. Not aimed at First or Go Ahead but more at the issues caused for bus services due to the retendering exercise from a family who use public transport to go on holiday.

I've not done links before on here so apologies if this goes a little wrong!

Plymothian Transit: The Tragic Missed Opportunity of Cornwall (link to Freewheeling blog)

Freewheeling: The Tragic Missed Opportunity of Cornwall

There's a lot more on the blog.

Why don't the operators show each others services on a map - they are hardly in competition with each other otherwise there would be no need for subsidised services (accepting that there are some common sections of routes). By showing both (indeed all operators) on a single map could increase patronage all round.

 

[Jamesbus80]

Why don't the operators show each others services on a map - they are hardly in competition with each other otherwise there would be no need for subsidised services (accepting that there are some common sections of routes). By showing both (indeed all operators) on a single map could increase patronage all round.

Before the service changes in early 2020, First used to advertise some of the other services on their route map - definitely Plymouth’s route 11/11A and some of the Falmouth locals spring to mind.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

The excellent Plymothian Transit blog has signposted a blog entry called 'The Tragic Missed Opportunity of Cornwall' - worth a read if you have not had a chance. Not aimed at First or Go Ahead but more at the issues caused for bus services due to the retendering exercise from a family who use public transport to go on holiday.

I've not done links before on here so apologies if this goes a little wrong!

Plymothian Transit: The Tragic Missed Opportunity of Cornwall (link to Freewheeling blog)

Freewheeling: The Tragic Missed Opportunity of Cornwall

There's a lot more on the blog.

It's worth noting too that the author is the former Commercial Director of Chiltern Railways (and about to take up a senior position with TfL), so not just a internet random with an opinion. His blog is generally excellent and worth reading throughout.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Why don't the operators show each others services on a map - they are hardly in competition with each other otherwise there would be no need for subsidised services (accepting that there are some common sections of routes). By showing both (indeed all operators) on a single map could increase patronage all round.

Initially, it was intimated on the First Kernow thread that FK were amenable to some info in their publicity of TfC routes but the details were not provided and the timetable book went to press. Clearly, that is no longer the case.

However, the fact is that Cornwall Council are supposed to be the body that has the remit to promote bus services in the county. However, they have singularly made this mess and seem unable to deal with it themselves OR to get their contractor to sort it out.

There was a lot of criticism on this board of Go Ahead when the network was first introduced. Some justified, and some overly partisan finger pointing. I was always more sympathetic to GA even though mistakes were clearly made. Mobilising people and resources on such a scale with that timescale was always going to have some pain, and so it proved. That said, and Covid service reductions helped, they did come through it and it wasn't the train wreck that was feared.

Throughout this, it is Cornwall Council who have really performed atrociously. Remember the aborted fare promotion to get people on buses when the government advice was the opposite, until they saw sense? CC have the money and the responsibility yet have been found wanting.

 

[Goldfish62]

Initially, it was intimated on the First Kernow thread that FK were amenable to some info in their publicity of TfC routes but the details were not provided and the timetable book went to press. Clearly, that is no longer the case.

However, the fact is that Cornwall Council are supposed to be the body that has the remit to promote bus services in the county. However, they have singularly made this mess and seem unable to deal with it themselves OR to get their contractor to sort it out.

There was a lot of criticism on this board of Go Ahead when the network was first introduced. Some justified, and some overly partisan finger pointing. I was always more sympathetic to GA even though mistakes were clearly made. Mobilising people and resources on such a scale with that timescale was always going to have some pain, and so it proved. That said, and Covid service reductions helped, they did come through it and it wasn't the train wreck that was feared.

Throughout this, it is Cornwall Council who have really performed atrociously. Remember the aborted fare promotion to get people on buses when the government advice was the opposite, until they saw sense? CC have the money and the responsibility yet have been found wanting.

I agree with all of this, and as the excellent blog post says, it's the customer that loses out.

Earlier this year there were rumours of a combined timetable book from September, but I'll believe that when I see it, just as I will with the low fares scheme.

Maybe the forthcoming enhanced partnership will be the opportunity to publicly integrate the network, plus introduce multi-operator ticketing that doesn't cost a fortune. If not, then all is lost and I can see nothing but terminal decline for Cornwall's bus network.

 

[Jamesbus80]

I have just been looking at the new timetables on the Go Cornwall Bus website - I had missed the 25 which is now being doubled to half hourly, the tendered/supported 25 remaining the same, with the 25A and 25B seemingly duplicating the 24. The 25A continues from St. Austell to the hospital every two hours, with the 25B to Luxulyan every two hours (Mon - Sat daytimes).

What with Plymouth's introduction of the 26/26A (St. Austell to Bodmin), it seems they are trying to drive First out of St. Austell (again). The turning at Safe Harbour will be interesting with any late running buses!

Going back to the blog entry, the tendered network of Transport for Cornwall alongside the commercial network of may not already sit easily or work effectively (i.e. no interworking of tickets or timetables), but Cornwall County Council really could have a problem on their hands if Plymouth start competing competitively... in these Covid times, they could have two bus companies not making much money at all and at full stretch.

 

[Busaholic]

Where is the council leadership in Transport for Cornwall? Are they now in too cosy a position with Go Ahead to not be offering them strong advice on the problems that may well arise at a political level if they are intent on creating 'commercial' competition on the back of the TfC set-up and the advantages they confer to Citybus at the possible expense of First? My belief for some time has been that Cornwall Council and its spin-offs like Cormac are 'not fit for purpose' and could be considered a Failed Council, but even leaving that aside, they are asleep at the wheel, although I suspect they've not even got behind it yet!

 

[Jamesbus80]

Where is the council leadership in Transport for Cornwall? Are they now in too cosy a position with Go Ahead to not be offering them strong advice on the problems that may well arise at a political level if they are intent on creating 'commercial' competition on the back of the TfC set-up and the advantages they confer to Citybus at the possible expense of First? My belief for some time has been that Cornwall Council and its spin-offs like Cormac are 'not fit for purpose' and could be considered a Failed Council, but even leaving that aside, they are asleep at the wheel, although I suspect they've not even got behind it yet!

Well, there's a couple of things I've thought about from your reply.

Firstly, it won't be the council accepting the service registrations - that is the DVSA (Driver and Vehicle Standards Association) as far as I know - didn't they supercede VOSA? And I guess there is nothing that stops this kind of thing on competition.

However, as you say, political support or the political support allowing a springboard of competitive services may offer Go Ahead an advantage at the expense of First. I find it very odd that, in the council-generated timetables etc, they mention nothing about the First services - surely, if you want to promote bus travel, you would incorporate all the services? Even if there was a different colour to say 'Transport for Cornwall tickets are not valid on services operated by First' or similar. There are subtle, small things that just make things trickier for First - such as removing lots of the Kernow bus stops so it appears, to the casual onlooker, only TfC serve. Of course, it is only First's commercial network stopping Cornwall CC from having their 'one integrated network' vision...

In an ideal world, there is common sense and teamwork across the companies - but there are jobs and livelihoods on both sides to think about. If Go Ahead genuinely were opening up new opportunities commercially, fair enough, but these do not appear so?

What happens next? Go Ahead drop a fleet of brand new double deckers on an identical Tinner route? Or First introduce the new 'cross city' service in Plymouth that is identical to the Spark 21/21A? It isn't helpful, especially with the effects of Covid. Hopefully, there are some sensible discussions behind the scenes and these routes are withdrawn fairly promptly.

It is an odd time to introduce them too, at the end of the summer season. Three buses an hour to Fowey might've been useful a few weeks ago!

 

[Busaholic]

Well, there's a couple of things I've thought about from your reply.

Firstly, it won't the council accepting the service registrations - that is the DVSA (Driver and Vehicle Standards Association) as far as I know - didn't they supercede VOSA? And I guess there is nothing that stops this kind of thing on competition.

However, as you say, political support or the political support allowing a spring board of competitive services may offer Go Ahead an advantage at the expense of First. I find it very odd that, in the council-generated timetables etc, they mention nothing about the First services - surely, if you want to promote bus travel, you would incorporate all the services? Even if there was a different colour to say 'Transport for Cornwall tickets are not valid on services operated by First' or similar. There are subtle, small things that just make things trickier for First - such as removing lots of the Kernow bus stops so it appears, to the casual onlooker, only TfC serve. Of course, it is only First's commerical network stopping Cornwall CC from having their 'one integreated network' vision...

In an ideal world, there is common sense and team work across the companies - but there are jobs and livelihoods on both sides to think about. If Go Ahead genuinely were opening up new opportunities commerically, fair enough, but these do not appear so?

What happens next? Go Ahead drop a fleet of brand new double deckers on an identical Tinner route? Or First introduce the new 'cross city' service in Plymouth that is identical to the Spark 21/21A? It isn't helpful, especially with the effects of Covid. Hopefully, there are some sensible discussions behind the scenes and these routes are withdrawn fairly promptly.

It is an odd time to introduce them too, at the end of the summer season. Three buses an hour to Fowey might've been useful a few weeks ago!

There's no reason that I know of why the Traffic Commissioners would refuse the route applications, either for new routes or variations on existing ones. The company is of 'good repute' and 'good financial standing' unless there are issues which are being well hidden! An eyebrow or three may get raised at the T.C.'s office perhaps, but commercial competition only becomes their problem when they receive reports of 'bus wars' with blocking of stops, one bus running a minute ahead of the other company's etc. In my view a complaint to the T.C. from a member of the public without any connection to either competitor, based on some knowledge and with FACTS preferably accompanied with some photos, could achieve a resolution. I'm sure the staff at the T.C. would have a word or two in ears before further action, and, in this case, Cornwall Council should be in the position of not wanting to receive any more embarrassment or scrutiny.

 

[Goldfish62]

Firstly, it won't the council accepting the service registrations - that is the DVSA (Driver and Vehicle Standards Association) as far as I know - didn't they supercede VOSA? And I guess there is nothing that stops this kind of thing on competition.

It's the Traffic Commissioners that accept registrations rather than the DVSA. They (the TCs) have no powers to refuse registrations unless they are incorrect in any way (unless they are short notice in which case the supplementary form must be submitted and the TC has the right to impose the minimum statutory notice on the service change if he/she considers that the short notice reason is invalid).

 

[Andyh82]

It will be interesting to see if Go Cornwall’s commercial services appear in the TfC timetable books, if they do, which I expect they will, that will be an interesting development

Using TfC vehicles, with Cornwall Council logos on the side, running commercial services competing with First, is a tad dodgy is it not?

 

[farwest]

I think the council has totally wrecked the bus services in Cornwall. Before the changes I could buy a sensibly priced M ticket and travel on most buses in mid and west Cornwall. Now there is no interchangeability at all.

The Council used to produce a timetable for ALL buses in Cornwall but now there are separate timetables and maps for different companies; it's total lunacy.

All we seem to have are loads of new empty buses running around on crazy routes like the 88 and 89. No 51 from Truro and an unnecessary hourly service to St. Mawes that is usually very lightly loaded.

It would be an improvement to go back to what we had before and I think all the money the government gave for improved transport has been totally squandered by the council.

I cannot count the number of passengers that have had to get off a TFC bus at Playing Place and Carnon Downs by trying to use an M ticket; it just shows the insanity.

I think First Kernow are showing up the council with all their commercial routes. When reality sets in and the money runs out TFC are going to be chopping routes everywhere.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I have just been looking at the new timetables on the Go Cornwall Bus website - I had missed the 25 which is now being doubled to half hourly, the tendered/supported 25 remaining the same, with the 25A and 25B seemingly duplicating the 24. The 25A continues from St. Austell to the hospital every two hours, with the 25B to Luxulyan every two hours (Mon - Sat daytimes).

What with Plymouth's introduction of the 26/26A (St. Austell to Bodmin), it seems they are trying to drive First out of St. Austell (again). The turning at Safe Harbour will be interesting with any late running buses!

Going back to the blog entry, the tendered network of Transport for Cornwall alongside the commercial network of may not already sit easily or work effectively (i.e. no interworking of tickets or timetables), but Cornwall County Council really could have a problem on their hands if Plymouth start competing competitively... in these Covid times, they could have two bus companies not making much money at all and at full stretch.

Hmmm.... this got me thinking. If Go Ahead are now running half hourly between St Austell and Fowey with an additional commercial run, plus First Kernow once an hour, then surely Cornwall Council cannot legitimately continue supporting services between those two points?

It will be interesting to see how First do respond to these incursions? I can't recall if it was the 46 that First were to register before Covid intervened. Perhaps that could reappear or a commercial 21? Or perhaps just fighting on their existing corridors?

 

[Busaholic]

It will be interesting to see if Go Cornwall’s commercial services appear in the TfC timetable books, if they do, which I expect they will, that will be an interesting development

Using TfC vehicles, with Cornwall Council logos on the side, running commercial services competing with First, is a tad dodgy is it not?

It would certainly be questionable and, given that council money is also involved in the production and distribution of the book, there will be questions asked if it should happen, assuming, of course, that First's commercially run services are excluded.

 

[charlie1284]

It will be interesting to see how First do respond to these incursions? I can't recall if it was the 46 that First were to register before Covid intervened. Perhaps that could reappear or a commercial 21? Or perhaps just fighting on their existing corridors?

They were due to run the 47 between Camborne and St Day but covid as you said put an end to that.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

They were due to run the 47 between Camborne and St Day but covid as you said put an end to that.

Thanks for confirming

 

[farwest]

Cornwall council used to be able to produce a timetable for ALL buses and ferries and planes in Cornwall. Plus brilliant street maps of most towns.
How come now that the buses are now only operated by Tfc and First Kernow they cannot undertake the same?

 

[Busaholic]

Cornwall council used to be able to produce a timetable for ALL buses and ferries and planes in Cornwall. Plus brilliant street maps of most towns.
How come now that the buses are now only operated by Tfc and First Kernow they cannot undertake the same?

I've conflicting memories of this, one being that it was free and another that it cost (50p?). Maybe they varied it over time - pretty sure it originated in County Council days, when the bunch at County Hall had fewer, but clearer designated, duties that they performed with a degree of competence that is now sadly lacking.

 

[richw]

New routes mentioned above postponed

Postponement and amendments to new timetables

We are having to postpone or amend the start of some of our new services that were due to come into effect from Sunday 5th Sept

www.gocornwallbus.co.uk

Regrettably we are having to postpone or amend the start of our new services F1 / F2, 25B and 26A that were due to come into effect from Sunday 5th September.

This is due to challenges we are facing with staff availability, a problem facing many transport operators. We believe this delay will be short term as we move through the current spike of absence and progress the training of over 40 new drivers in our recruitment system.

This decision has been made to make sure that we focus all of our available resource to the bus services that we currently operate, including the provision of many school transport services.

This means, we are postponing the launch of the F1/F2 between Falmouth and Truro and the 26A between Bodmin and St Austell. However, the 26 will start as planned, providing an hourly service between the two towns, operating via Bugle.

The revised 25B is also postponed, with the 25A now running between St Austell and Luxulyan only, not extending to Fowey. Service 25 will continue as advertised. Despite these postponements, passengers will still receive a more frequent service than currently provided between St Austell and Luxulyan on the 25/25A.

Revised timetables and further information are available on our website at gocornwallbus.co.uk or contact customer services on freephone 0808 196 2632.

We are doing everything we can to resolve these challenges and secure a revised launch date for these new services, which we anticipate will be achievable in October. We will advise of a revised start date as soon as possible.

We apologise for all inconvenience this decision may cause to our customers and thank you in anticipation of your patience and understanding at this time.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

New routes mentioned above postponed

Postponement and amendments to new timetables

We are having to postpone or amend the start of some of our new services that were due to come into effect from Sunday 5th Sept

www.gocornwallbus.co.uk

Well, so much for the press release and the "being on the grid" etc. TBH, the industry is experiencing a double whammy of drivers isolating vs. a shortage of drivers that is exacerbated by the lack of testing for over a year. That said, it's not the best time to be starting up new ventures, so you do question the timing.

I'm sure we'd have enjoyed being a fly on the wall at Kernow Towers in Camborne (or the appropriate Teams or Zoom call) when this came out; moreover, still interesting to see how First may still react to these incursions.

 

[carlberry]

New routes mentioned above postponed

Postponement and amendments to new timetables

We are having to postpone or amend the start of some of our new services that were due to come into effect from Sunday 5th Sept

www.gocornwallbus.co.uk

It's just as well there are other buses on all those routes to take the passengers until Go decide they can be bothered to run!
Is there an issue with a short notice cancellation in this kind of situation, or are they just rubber stamped by the council?