Going the 'wrong' way on lines normally used in the other direction

[Northern158170]

Between Skelton Junction and York today I found myself going the wrong way down the lines (the right side instead of left). The train went the normal speed. Is there a reason for this?

 

[bluenoxid]

Usually, it is to allow a train to access or leave the line towards Harrogate but without more information on time and what your train was doing, it would be difficult to say.

 

[yorkie]

Between Skelton Junction and York today I found myself going the wrong way down the lines (the right side instead of left). The train went the normal speed.

Was this actually from York to Skelton Junction?

If so, it's not "wrong"; the lines are bidirectional. Perhaps a train had just come off Skelton Junction and was heading towards York in the opposite direction, or perhaps a train to Harrogate was departing around the same time as yours?

If it was from Skelton Junction to York, then it's very obvious: you were on a train from the Harrogate line, and given they use high numbered platforms, it makes complete sense. A train from the mainline was probably due into Platform 3 or 5 around the same time as yours.

Is there a reason for this?

As you've not made it clear which direction or time, we cannot say.

I understand works are currently ongoing to add a third line, to enable Harrogate trains to avoid conflicts; I think there is a thread on the subject somewhere...

 

[rower40]

Many bits of busy 2-track railway are signalled for movements in both directions. (But definitely not at the same time!) York to Skelton Junction is one such.
As bluenoxid writes, this is often used for Up trains off the Harrogate line to reach York platform 8 if there’s another up train coming from the North into platform 3. But it needs a gap in Northbound services leaving York.

 

[thenorthern]

Some stations on the West Highland line that have passing loops where the trains run on the right rather than the left.

 

[matchmaker]

Quite a few years ago I was on a Glasgow Queen Street to Stirling service which went up through Cowlairs tunnel on the down line, to be passed about half way with a service going down the up line...that was quite an attack on the senses!

 

[Falcon1200]

Many bits of busy 2-track railway are signalled for movements in both directions. (But definitely not at the same time!).

Regarding the italicised sentence; Not normally, but I did arrange once for one Up freight to overtake another using the bi-directional signalling between Innerwick and Grantshouse (at the freight operator's request because the trains had left Millerhill in the wrong order). Unfortunately however there are far too many double line railways, for example the northern part of the West Coast Main Line, where bi-directional signalling is not provided, despite its great benefits when disruption occurs.

 

[waverley47]

Quite a few years ago I was on a Glasgow Queen Street to Stirling service which went up through Cowlairs tunnel on the down line, to be passed about half way with a service going down the up line...that was quite an attack on the senses!

The down line is bi-di from Queen Street all the way to Cadder depot these days, although I'm not sure over ever actually seen anything use it.

 

[Taunton]

The down line is bi-di from Queen Street all the way to Cadder depot these days, although I'm not sure over ever actually seen anything use it.

That's the safety issue with it, that people become unused to it and a train running "wrong line" becomes a safety hazard to permanent way staff, even passengers on platforms.

The DLR is wholly bi-di, no doubt more readily done with automatic operation, and as a catch-up of delays would run wrong line down through the tunnel into Bank, arriving at the departure platform and saving the normal reversal in the headshunt beyond, but I believe it may have been given up because of the startle factor to passengers on the platform when it arrived from the unexpected direction.

In the USA it is much more established and regularly used in Centralised Traffic Control areas, for overtakes and similar, along with many 3-track sections where just any combination is used as needed to avoid conflicts.

 

[brad465]

In the very early 00s, when I was maybe 5-7 years old, I remember going from Crayford to London on a service that ran wrong-sided from Crayford P2 to Sidcup, where it crossed back to the up line. This was rather odd, not only as bi-directional signalling doesn't exist here, but there are turnback points at Crayford just beyond the platforms that have been used for turning trains round during certain engineering work setups.

 

[AMD]

The down line is bi-di from Queen Street all the way to Cadder depot these days, although I'm not sure over ever actually seen anything use it.

The Up line was used once last year, however the junction indicator on the signal at Cowlairs East junction isn't working so you can't be signalled back onto the down there, and that caused extra delays.

 

[waverley47]

The Up line was used once last year, however the junction indicator on the signal at Cowlairs East junction isn't working so you can't be signalled back onto the down there, and that caused extra delays.

Once!??!

 

[Falcon1200]

That's the safety issue with it, that people become unused to it and a train running "wrong line" becomes a safety hazard to permanent way staff, even passengers on platforms.

When Cathcart SB's area was recontrolled to the West of Scotland Signalling Centre some bi-directional signalling was installed, including the ability to run in the Down (towards Glasgow) direction on the Up (towards Neilston) line from Whitecraigs back to Muirend. Which I thought was a great thing, until going home off a nightshift I was chucked off my train when it was turned at Whitecraigs!

 

[Harpo]

Different bits of bi-di have different rules based on local risk assessments. I’ll not give locations in case they’ve changed but I’ve known examples of:
- Needing bi-di use to be pre-planned and published
- Needing the complete route from entry to exit back to right road to be set at once
- Bi-di prohibiting overtaking/ two trains moving in the same direction

Emergency bi-di can be a very useful workaround but, especially away from stations, it rarely supports the full service and if crossovers are miles apart the service reduction will bite.

 

[Falcon1200]

Emergency bi-di can be a very useful workaround but, especially away from stations, it rarely supports the full service and if crossovers are miles apart the service reduction will bite.

When the Ayr lines were electrified and Paisley SC took control the section between Elderslie (Paisley/Johnstone) and Kilwinning was bi-directionally signalled, however as you say the full train service could not be maintained; Which led to interesting discussions (especially post-privatisation) regarding the priority given to passenger trains versus the important Hunterston/Ravenscraig freight flows. The latter not an issue now of course.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

HS1 (and HS2 when it opens) are/will be full bi-di with their modern signalling (TVM/ETCS).
Very many continental main lines are bi-di signalled, and regularly used in that form (with fast crossovers to shorten section times).
ETCS gives you bi-di "for free", in principle.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Between Peterborough and Wennington the most easrterly track is bidirectionsal, to reduce conflicts for trains going towards Spalding (although some now use the new diveunder)

 

[Annetts key]

Between Bristol T.M. (North Somerset Junction) and Bath Spa many years ago there was a failure of a signalling cable. The result was that normal direction signalling was not available on this section. However, the fault did not affect the "reversible" signalling.

Hence until the fault was fixed the Bristol T.M. to London Paddington services all ran in the "wrong" direction on each (both) lines. That is up direction trains towards Bath used the down line and down direction trains towards Bristol used the up line.

Because the line speed for running "reversible" is more restrictive (75MPH) and there's less signal sections when running "reversible" a lot of the regional / local services were cancelled and replaced with busses.

I've also known "reversible" signalled lines be used to allow a fast train to "overtake" a train that was running slower ( for whatever reason). So for a time both lines being used for trains running in the same direction. Or due to some other reason (infrastructure problem) it being beneficial for both lines to be used in this way.

 

[edwin_m]

Between Bristol T.M. (North Somerset Junction) and Bath Spa many years ago there was a failure of a signalling cable. The result was that normal direction signalling was not available on this section. However, the fault did not affect the "reversible" signalling.

Hence until the fault was fixed the Bristol T.M. to London Paddington services all ran in the "wrong" direction on each (both) lines. That is up direction trains towards Bath used the down line and down direction trains towards Bristol used the up line.

On one occasion when I was travelling from Manchester Piccadilly something similar must have happened, because the bi-directional platforms 13 and 14 were used in the reverse direction with 14 towards Stockport and 13 towards Liverpool and Bolton. I think all trains were stopping at the "b" ends, not normally used, so passengers went to the same end of the platform as usual, just the other side. Having the intensive services crossing over each other in two places was also causing a lot of disruption.

 

[Western Sunset]

Still reversible; sometimes happen at Bath for trains to pass or overtake an up freight.

 

[brad465]

I've also known "reversible" signalled lines be used to allow a fast train to "overtake" a train that was running slower ( for whatever reason). So for a time both lines being used for trains running in the same direction. Or due to some other reason (infrastructure problem) it being beneficial for both lines to be used in this way.

This has happened along the Dawlish Sea wall, where the up-line is bi-directional, though the down line is not. Mainly this is in relation to sea impacts in rough conditions, but overtaking moves have happened, such as in this video where 2x HSTs tried to upstage the airshow with parallel running:

 

[plugwash]

- Needing the complete route from entry to exit back to right road to be set at once

I'd imagine that such a rule helps avoid "mexican standoff" situations.

 

[Harpo]

I'd imagine that such a rule helps avoid "mexican standoff" situations.

It wasn’t what led to that rule in that instance. But, yes, I remember quite a number of ARS standoffs at Paddington before the software got sorted to prevent simultaneous routes being called over a common section!

 

[edwin_m]

It wasn’t what led to that rule in that instance. But, yes, I remember quite a number of ARS standoffs at Paddington before the software got sorted to prevent simultaneous routes being called over a common section!

Normally the interlocking will enforce this, as mentioned above, by preventing any route being set into the bi-di section when a train is signalled in the other direction. But there could still be loopholes, for example if the signalling needs to allow a train to enter that section to reverse part way but a train is signalled that needs to go right through. I imagine also care has to be taken if there is a problem at crossovers which means the lines before and after are being worked as one long bi-directional section. The system probably then assumes that one of the trains will switch tracks at the intermediate crossover, not taking account of it not being available.

 

[ian1944]

Between Skelton Junction and York today I found myself going the wrong way down the lines (the right side instead of left). The train went the normal speed. Is there a reason for this?

I took this to mean between York and Timperley, which seemed a remarkable distance for wrong-line working.

 

[tumbledown]

I took this to mean between York and Timperley, which seemed a remarkable distance for wrong-line working.

There's a similar error on the Traksy map of Stockport

 

[apinnard]

The slow lines at Wellingborough sometimes have trains running in the same direction on both tracks. I believe Leicester to Kettering is full bi-di as well.

 

[midland1]

The slow lines at Wellingborough sometimes have trains running in the same direction on both tracks. I believe Leicester to Kettering is full bi-di as well.

Not fully; the Down line from Kilby Bridge Jn. to Wigston North Jn. is not.

 

[CC 72100]

Between Bristol T.M. (North Somerset Junction) and Bath Spa many years ago there was a failure of a signalling cable. The result was that normal direction signalling was not available on this section. However, the fault did not affect the "reversible" signalling.

Hence until the fault was fixed the Bristol T.M. to London Paddington services all ran in the "wrong" direction on each (both) lines. That is up direction trains towards Bath used the down line and down direction trains towards Bristol used the up line.

Because the line speed for running "reversible" is more restrictive (75MPH) and there's less signal sections when running "reversible" a lot of the regional / local services were cancelled and replaced with busses.

I've also known "reversible" signalled lines be used to allow a fast train to "overtake" a train that was running slower ( for whatever reason). So for a time both lines being used for trains running in the same direction. Or due to some other reason (infrastructure problem) it being beneficial for both lines to be used in this way.

Bristol - Bath reversible is 70. You can indeed run reversible all the way to Swindon, with the speed upping to 85 after Thingley Junction (just before Chippenham)/

 

[Smod]

Yesterday I saw two Jubilee Line trains leaving Stratford at the same time, thereby running side-by-side on the two sets of tracks. One of them was presumably going to the depot, but for a moment it looked distinctly odd.