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I have been in the background reading through various posts on this matter for two months now. Reason being:
On the 21st of April I was travelling on a Thameslink Line from Sandy to Finsbury Park. I had originally bought a ticket from St Neots to Sandy as my colleague lives in Sandy and we'd most often commute to work together to London in her car. This time she had something come up and cancelled on me literally last minute. I then continued on the line hyper anxious that I will be late to work. When just leaving Stevenage station I'd realised I didn't have a ticket and bought one to account for the journey taken thus far (Anytime day single as I was still supposed to get a ride back with my colleague) from Sandy to Finsbury Park where I was supposed to get off. A few minutes before the final station I was asked for my ticket, the controller said I've committed fraud as the ticket was purchased after the train had left Sandy. I tried to explain my circumstance but to no avail. They gave me a Witness Statement and advised that I can expect a letter from Thameslink in the mail. I have been expecting one but it's now been two months and I am quite paranoid that something has gone wrong. Could I please get some advice on whether I should take any action? Based on common replies it seems I should not email them and continue waiting - is this sort of delay in receiving a letter standard? How much longer might I have to wait? Any advice is greatly appreciated!
I have been in the background reading through various posts on this matter for two months now. Reason being:
On the 21st of April I was travelling on a Thameslink Line from Sandy to Finsbury Park. I had originally bought a ticket from St Neots to Sandy as my colleague lives in Sandy and we'd most often commute to work together to London in her car. This time she had something come up and cancelled on me literally last minute. I then continued on the line hyper anxious that I will be late to work. When just leaving Stevenage station I'd realised I didn't have a ticket and bought one to account for the journey taken thus far (Anytime day single as I was still supposed to get a ride back with my colleague) from Sandy to Finsbury Park where I was supposed to get off. A few minutes before the final station I was asked for my ticket, the controller said I've committed fraud as the ticket was purchased after the train had left Sandy. I tried to explain my circumstance but to no avail. They gave me a Witness Statement and advised that I can expect a letter from Thameslink in the mail. I have been expecting one but it's now been two months and I am quite paranoid that something has gone wrong. Could I please get some advice on whether I should take any action? Based on common replies it seems I should not email them and continue waiting - is this sort of delay in receiving a letter standard? How much longer might I have to wait? Any advice is greatly appreciated!
Some quick questions:
- what train did you board?
- what time did your ticket purchase go through?
- what time were you stopped on the train?
- is Finsbury Park your final destination or do you continue on elsewhere using contactless/Oyster?
The first thing the train company will suspect is that you:
- board at Sandy, a barriered station
- have purchased the cheapest possible ticket to operate the barriers
- you travel without a ticket from St Neots
- you use the validators at Finsbury Park to begin a contactless journey on the TfL network
which saves you a load of money. It's the first thing they'll think of, just like I did.
The train company may audit your ticket purchases and may confront you with evidence of other short fares. I understand they have a backlog at the moment, but they may also be in the process of pulling your purchase history at the same time. They should be in touch before the 6 month deadline to prosecute you runs out, however.
I'm going to be blunt here and say your story is scarcely believable. If I understand what you're saying:
You take the train from St Neots to Sandy - a journey that takes 7 minutes
You then get off and travel with your friend by car to London, where you both work. You don't mention whereabouts in London your destination is but you do mention Finsbury Park.
Depending on the time of day, driving from Sandy to Finsbury Park takes between 1h4 and 2h20
The train between Sandy and Finsbury Park takes 41 minutes
On the day of the incident, your friend cancelled on you at the last minute. It would be very unlucky for this to happen in the exact 7 minutes you were on the train between St Neots and Sandy
You stayed on the train fearing you would be late for work - by staying on the train you would have arrived far earlier at Finsbury Park than you would have done had you alighted and travelled the rest of the way by car.
You failed to purchase a ticket for the rest of your journey and your details were taken by an inspector after the train had passed Stavenage
A couple of things spring to mind:
If your friend contacted you before you left St Neots or while you were on the train between St Neots and Sandy why didn't you buy a ticket for the remainder of your journey to regularise the situation? As long as you did this before leaving Sandy then thsi would have been fine.
If your friend didn't contact you before the train got to Sandy then surely you'd have just got off the train exoecting a lift as normal?
Trains run every 30 minutes from Sandy so even if you'd have got off and got on the next train your arrival at Finsbury Park would still have been no later than if you'd driven
This has all the hallmarks of short faring, and if I suspect it you can bet GTR will too.
GTR are entitled to prosecute you in the Magistrates Court if they want to. They will write to you saying they have received a report and asking for your version of events before they decide how to proceed. Normally they are prepared to offer an out of court settlement to people who co-operate with them, and whi haven't come to their attention before. I suggest you reconsider your story before you reply to GTR's letter because if they think you're trying it on they are less likely to offer a settlement.
GTR has a backlog of cases at the monent and so it could be several weeks before you get their letter. When it does come post a redacted copy of it in this thread along with your draft reply and forum members will proof read it for you.
Some quick questions:
- what train did you board?
- what time did your ticket purchase go through?
- what time were you stopped on the train?
- is Finsbury Park your final destination or do you continue on elsewhere using contactless/Oyster?
The first thing the train company will suspect is that you:
- board at Sandy, a barriered station
- have purchased the cheapest possible ticket to operate the barriers
- you travel without a ticket from St Neots
- you use the validators at Finsbury Park to begin a contactless journey on the TfL network
which saves you a load of money. It's the first thing they'll think of, just like I did.
The train company may audit your ticket purchases and may confront you with evidence of other short fares. I understand they have a backlog at the moment, but they may also be in the process of pulling your purchase history at the same time. They should be in touch before the 6 month deadline to prosecute you runs out, however.
- Train was from Peterborough to Horsham
- Ticket purchase was 9:02 stopped on the train maybe around 9:17
- Finsbury Park was not final destination, I used contactless to take Piccadilly line.
I did (eventually) have a Anytime day single ticket from start station St Neots to end station Finsbury Park, I boarded the train at the correct time for St Neots to Sandy stretch, though for the ticket bought for Sandy to Finsbury Park I of course selected a time "in the future" it was a Anytime Day single ticket I'd purchased. I've had to do a similar situation before where my colleague has cancelled last minute before and I've been checked before also (though admittedly I had bought tickets far quicker than this time, they were always bought after I'd passed Sandy) and have not experienced an issue like this before so never considered I was doing something wrong. Looking at my history they will find several journeys that are St Neots to Sandy, a few where it's St Neots to Finsbury Park and a few where I'd bought St Neots to Sandy and then Sandy to Finsbury Park a bit later.
In terms of them contacting me what should I expect e.g. is it most common for them to ask me to explain myself? I am really concerned about going to court, though I've never had issues before and honestly can explain my entire history if they've got questions (and have messages/call logs from my colleague to back it up).
Thank you for all the advice
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
I'm going to be blunt here and say your story is scarcely believable. If I understand what you're saying:
You take the train from St Neots to Sandy - a journey that takes 7 minutes
You then get off and travel with your friend by car to London, where you both work. You don't mention whereabouts in London your destination is but you do mention Finsbury Park.
Depending on the time of day, driving from Sandy to Finsbury Park takes between 1h4 and 2h20
The train between Sandy and Finsbury Park takes 41 minutes
On the day of the incident, your friend cancelled on you at the last minute. It would be very unlucky for this to happen in the exact 7 minutes you were on the train between St Neots and Sandy
You stayed on the train fearing you would be late for work - by staying on the train you would have arrived far earlier at Finsbury Park than you would have done had you alighted and travelled the rest of the way by car.
You failed to purchase a ticket for the rest of your journey and your details were taken by an inspector after the train had passed Stavenage
A couple of things spring to mind:
If your friend contacted you before you left St Neots or while you were on the train between St Neots and Sandy why didn't you buy a ticket for the remainder of your journey to regularise the situation? As long as you did this before leaving Sandy then thsi would have been fine.
If your friend didn't contact you before the train got to Sandy then surely you'd have just got off the train exoecting a lift as normal?
Trains run every 30 minutes from Sandy so even if you'd have got off and got on the next train your arrival at Finsbury Park would still have been no later than if you'd driven
This has all the hallmarks of short faring, and if I suspect it you can bet GTR will too.
GTR are entitled to prosecute you in the Magistrates Court if they want to. They will write to you saying they have received a report and asking for your version of events before they decide how to proceed. Normally they are prepared to offer an out of court settlement to people who co-operate with them, and whi haven't come to their attention before. I suggest you reconsider your story before you reply to GTR's letter because if they think you're trying it on they are less likely to offer a settlement.
GTR has a backlog of cases at the monent and so it could be several weeks before you get their letter. When it does come post a redacted copy of it in this thread along with your draft reply and forum members will proof read it for you.
This truly is the case. We work near Middlesex Uni London, I usually take the 8:18 train from St Neots and we set off around 8:30 from Sandy, we need to get to work by 10am and usually arrive around 9:50 as most people travelling are trying to get to London by 9. I rarely need to take the train to Finsbury but when I do it’s literally always delayed - I’d then take Piccadilly or Victoria line and connect to Northern Line and then to a bus. There’s not been a time I’ve not been at least a few minutes delayed because of this.
Yes she cancelled last minute, she experiences childcare issues due to her ex husband but I don’t know how much detail I should go into about this when explaining it to GTR. She doesn’t do it often maybe 4-5 times over the last year. She messaged me as I’d sat down on the train. Honestly I kind of spiralled, we had the directorate at work that day and it was the worst scenario for me to be late. I spent the next 30min messaging line managers and explaining my circumstances.
I did buy a Sandy to Finsbury Park Anytime Day Single ticket about 10min or so before I was checked. This situation had happened before and I’d bought a ticket after departing Sandy in the past AND had been checked with there being no issues, though admittedly in the past I had bought the extra ticket at most extra 10min after departing Sandy. Because of this I (stupidly) thought it’d be fine and frankly didn’t learn until reading threads here that it’s not legal to do this. I thought buying an Anytime Day ticket covers any times I could’ve taken the train on - lessons definitely learned.
Though this genuinely is the accurate version of events and I’d be ready to provide any evidence needed - message transcripts, my colleagues proof of address and where we both work do you suggest that I should frame my response to their query as “I should’ve bought a full ticket at the start of the journey, it was a lapse in judgement, I didn’t realise the impact it would cause, I’ve learnt my lesson, it won’t happen again, I would sincerely like to avoid going to court”? Because if this comes across better that’s what I will do.
Reason for my extravagant concern is that I’m in the U.K. on a work visa and I really don’t want any kind of a silly decision making on my part to impact it.
If people on a forum dedicated to helping people are suspicious, you can bet that a train operator will be. Treating your account as true, you need to make sure that you have the details clear, and make sure that you have the evidence to stand up what you are saying about that day. That includes your colleague being willing to confirm what you've said here.
That's because, at the moment, even your most recent post reads as though it may be an after the event rationalisation of your behaviour, not how you saw things at the time.
If people on a forum dedicated to helping people are suspicious, you can bet that a train operator will be. Treating your account as true, you need to make sure that you have the details clear, and make sure that you have the evidence to stand up what you are saying about that day. That includes your colleague being willing to confirm what you've said here.
That's because, at the moment, even your most recent post reads as though it may be an after the event rationalisation of your behaviour, not how you saw things at the time.
That very much seems to be the case. Though I can’t help but be surprised that my situation is seen as such a unique circumstance- I’ve never looked at it like such an out of pocket insane scenario, which is how other seem to view it. It’s been my standard for over a year so maybe I’m just acclimated to it. My colleague is more than willing to support me with any evidence necessary, I can also get evidence to prove our commute arrangement, where we work etc.
That very much seems to be the case. Though I can’t help but be surprised that my situation is seen as such a unique circumstance- I’ve never looked at it like such an out of pocket insane scenario, which is how other seem to view it. It’s been my standard for over a year so maybe I’m just acclimated to it. My colleague is more than willing to support me with any evidence necessary, I can also get evidence to prove our commute arrangement, where we work etc.
The issue is, regardless of the reasons, your mitigation and evidence will count for nothing. GTR will still in all likelihood proceed to either offering an out of court settlement or go to prosecution.
The issue is, regardless of the reasons, your mitigation and evidence will count for nothing. GTR will still in all likelihood proceed to either offering an out of court settlement or go to prosecution.
It’s important that you engage with them, otherwise they will just prosecute. But don’t build up you hopes that your stated reasons will avoid any penalty.
It gives you an opportunity to acknowledge that what you did was wrong, apologise, and clarify that it won’t happen again. And to ask for a settlement.
It’s important that you engage with them, otherwise they will just prosecute. But don’t build up you hopes that your stated reasons will avoid any penalty.
Oh, definitely not. I realise I did wrong, whether I realised it or not it was fraudulent activity. Only reason I’m explaining my reasons is to express that its not how I’d conduct myself normally and truly didn’t know until confronted that I’d done something wrong.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
It’s important that you engage with them, otherwise they will just prosecute. But don’t build up you hopes that your stated reasons will avoid any penalty.
Oh, definitely not. I realise I did wrong, whether I realised it or not it was fraudulent activity. Only reason I’m explaining my reasons is to express that its not how I’d conduct myself normally and truly didn’t know until confronted that I’d done something wrong.
. Looking at my history they will find several journeys that are St Neots to Sandy, a few where it's St Neots to Finsbury Park and a few where I'd bought St Neots to Sandy and then Sandy to Finsbury Park a bit later.
Only reason I’m explaining my reasons is to express that its not how I’d conduct myself normally and truly didn’t know until confronted that I’d done something wrong.
If this is a one-off, then big explanations are not really necessary. You could cut it down to something like, "I normally get a lift from Sandy to my workplace in north-west London but was let down at the last minute on this occasion".
Which train were you actually on and was it on time?
The key question here is: Can you demonstrate you bought the additional ticket immediately you found out your journey plans had to change i.e. at the first opportunity? (The law says you should have done this before departing Sandy if you were able to.)
If you have concise evidence that shows that, put that together to try to persuade them to take no further action.
Additionally, there'll be the question of when you were first aware of the ticket inspection.
(I also note that if you were intending to make a return journey, you'd not have bought single tickets - a split return is noticeably cheaper. With singles the saving looks negligible.)
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(Wouldn't be SJPN but full summons as boarded with valid ticket, valid ticket shown? But knowingly didn't leave train at end of ticket validity? And proceeded beyond place paid for without first paying for extra distance momentarily intending not to pay it at that point as purchase of supplementary fare was delayed for no reason?)
Which train were you actually on and was it on time?
The key question here is: Can you demonstrate you bought the additional ticket immediately you found out your journey plans had to change i.e. at the first opportunity? (The law says you should have done this before departing Sandy if you were able to.)
If you have concise evidence that shows that, put that together to try to persuade them to take no further action.
Additionally, there'll be the question of when you were first aware of the ticket inspection.
(I also note that if you were intending to make a return journey, you'd not have bought single tickets - a split return is noticeably cheaper. With singles the saving looks negligible.)
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
(Wouldn't be SJPN but full summons as boarded with valid ticket, valid ticket shown? But knowingly didn't leave train at end of ticket validity? And proceeded beyond place paid for without first paying for extra distance momentarily intending not to pay it at that point as purchase of supplementary fare was delayed for no reason?)
No I hadn’t bought an additional ticket at the earliest opportunity, it was about 20min after departing Sandy. I’m not looking to get them to drop it to be honest, I’ve done something wrong and will accept the consequences, my concern is the part about “court”. My Sandy ticket was a return but not the other one as I got a lift back to Sandy with my colleague in the evening.
Which train were you actually on and was it on time?
The key question here is: Can you demonstrate you bought the additional ticket immediately you found out your journey plans had to change i.e. at the first opportunity? (The law says you should have done this before departing Sandy if you were able to.)
If you have concise evidence that shows that, put that together to try to persuade them to take no further action.
And what was occupying your mind during those 20 minutes?
This sort of case doesn't seem to be an obvious one to pursue in court unless there's a direct connection between discovering there's about to be a ticket inspection and purchasing the extra ticket, though some reasonable explanation of the time period concerned is required. If you have a coherent explanation backed up with evidence there's a chance they won't take further action. There is, after all, no outstanding fare due.
And what was occupying your mind during those 20 minutes?
This sort of case doesn't seem to be an obvious one to pursue in court unless there's a direct connection between discovering there's about to be a ticket inspection and purchasing the extra ticket, though some reasonable explanation of the time period concerned is required. If you have a coherent explanation backed up with evidence there's a chance they won't take further action. There is, after all, no outstanding fare due.
I explained it in detail in a previous message but in summary, I was super overwhelmed by the sudden let down by my friend, I knew I would be late to work because of it and that day we had the board of directors at our offices which made it the worst time to be late. I spent the time messaging all my line managers in panic and trying to explain myself. I was pulled out of this when I went through the first tunnel after Stevenage as I lost my internet connection. I bought a ticket as soon as I was online again, my ticket was checked by a member of staff about 10min after I’d purchased it.
It isn't to her end destination in Hendon, to be fair.
It is however slower to get off at Finsbury Park and change twice more to get to Hendon; faster and more reliable to stay on to King's Cross (which has barriers!) and just take the Northern Line direct.
I am very familiar with driving from Stevenage to Hendon at all different times of the day.
It's a horrible journey along the A1 and A41 (negotiating Stirling Corner and Apex Corner) and delays occur at almost all times, expect at very off peak times.
I am very familiar with driving from Stevenage to Hendon at all different times of the day.
It's a horrible journey along the A1 and A41 (negotiating Stirling Corner and Apex Corner) and delays occur at almost all times, expect at very off peak times.
I appreciate this perspective but honestly not sure what to say - I commuted with my colleague again today, we left maybe 8:28 and I was sat at my desk around 9:50ish (didn’t check the time exactly). She’s driven the route for years so I’m not sure what roads she exactly takes but as stated I truly can evidence (in extensive detail) every piece of information I’ve provided. I’m just not sure whether that’s necessary for Thameslink, or would it help my case in any way. Fact is I didn’t have a valid ticket for 3 stations and only bought one to cover those stations to my destination after the 4th one. I’d say at this point everyone has made it abundantly clear I was wrong which I accept completely. I don’t know if I should bother providing Thameslink with a thorough explanation of how this happened or should I accept my wrongdoing, express my remorse, give assurance for the future and ask to avoid court.
I appreciate this perspective but honestly not sure what to say - I commuted with my colleague again today, we left maybe 8:28 and I was sat at my desk around 9:50ish (didn’t check the time exactly). She’s driven the route for years so I’m not sure what roads she exactly takes but as stated I truly can evidence (in extensive detail) every piece of information I’ve provided. I’m just not sure whether that’s necessary for Thameslink, or would it help my case in any way. Fact is I didn’t have a valid ticket for 3 stations and only bought one to cover those stations to my destination after the 4th one. I’d say at this point everyone has made it abundantly clear I was wrong which I accept completely. I don’t know if I should bother providing Thameslink with a thorough explanation of how this happened or should I accept my wrongdoing, express my remorse, give assurance for the future and ask to avoid court.
You need to wait and see what GTR say in the letter, and draft your reply based on that.
Forum members will proof read your draft reply, if you post it in this thread (along with a redacted copy of GTR’s letter), to help you a achieve a favourable outcome.
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