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Graffiti and vandalism on railway infrastructure

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61653 HTAFC

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And when this happens all you hear is what great lads they were etc. etc.
Anyone saying otherwise gets slaughtered.
This thread would not appear to support this assertion, see the following responses to people who dared suggest that graffiti can sometimes be interesting or attractive:
I really hope this is a joke post, if not perhaps you'd like to give out your home address so that these 'artists' can pay a visit and provide your house and car etc with a 'nice colourful display'

I am sure if people like you would publish your address and car reg no, G "artists" will be pleased to have new legal areas on which to show their "art".

So your suggestion that nobody dares criticise graffiti "artists" is simply not true.
Speaking specifically about "artists" that end up getting themselves killed through their pastime, then yes, generally people, particularly their bereaved friends and relatives, will say positive things about them. If you were to go on a Facebook memorial page for such an individual and post "actually they were criminal scum who got what they deserved" then you're a far worse person than someone who sprayed a bit of paint.
 
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greyman42

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So your suggestion that nobody dares criticise graffiti "artists" is simply not true.
Speaking specifically about "artists" that end up getting themselves killed through their pastime, then yes, generally people, particularly their bereaved friends and relatives, will say positive things about them. If you were to go on a Facebook memorial page for such an individual and post "actually they were criminal scum who got what they deserved" then you're a far worse person than someone who sprayed a bit of paint.
It is more than just spraying a bit of paint. It looks terrible and costs a fortune to remove.
It is not a pastime, it is criminal damage.
 

61653 HTAFC

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It is more than just spraying a bit of paint. It looks terrible and costs a fortune to remove.
It is not a pastime, it is criminal damage.
Doesn't mean that (metaphorically) dancing on their graves is justifiable. If you (god forbid) lost a relative I hope you'd be upset, even if they died through their own poor and/or illegal decisions.
 

furnessvale

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This thread would not appear to support this assertion, see the following responses to people who dared suggest that graffiti can sometimes be interesting or attractive:




So your suggestion that nobody dares criticise graffiti "artists" is simply not true.
Speaking specifically about "artists" that end up getting themselves killed through their pastime, then yes, generally people, particularly their bereaved friends and relatives, will say positive things about them. If you were to go on a Facebook memorial page for such an individual and post "actually they were criminal scum who got what they deserved" then you're a far worse person than someone who sprayed a bit of paint.
Please point out anything in my contribution that says anything other than those that support graffiti can best do so by offering their OWN property as a blank canvas.

I find the rest of your contribution offensive in the extreme.
 

61653 HTAFC

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I never suggested it was.
Your initial post I quoted certainly reads that way to me.

Please point out anything in my contribution that says anything other than those that support graffiti can best do so by offering their OWN property as a blank canvas.

I find the rest of your contribution offensive in the extreme.
What are you on about? Both posts I quoted (yours and the other) were in response to suggestions that graffiti can sometimes be interesting. The retorts that those people might offer up their own property for such "decoration" entirely supports the point I was making- that an appreciation for graffiti is very much a minority opinion on this website.

Anyway, my point was that it's generally considered poor form to speak ill of the dead, regardless of how they met their end. @greyman42 seemed to be somewhat disappointed by this for some reason.
 
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pieguyrob

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Didn't a conservative MP have to issue a public apology for calling out the graffiti people who died on the line in London? I think there was a huge public outcry about it, at the time. I think it made national news, as I remember hearing about it on the radio news.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Didn't a conservative MP have to issue a public apology for calling out the graffiti people who died on the line in London? I think there was a huge public outcry about it, at the time. I think it made national news, as I remember hearing about it on the radio news.
Certainly we should expect more from our politicians. A bit of messroom banter from rail staff at the expense of those killed, I'd have no problem with- gallows humour can be cathartic, and such things aren't intended for wider publication where relatives of the deceased may see them. But for a politician to publicly do the same thing would be a serious faux-pas.
 

alex397

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I think a lot of “street art” is really interesting and adds a lot to a local area. But i’m talking about commissioned work, or work seen on ‘legal walls’. I think a lot of the blank spaces we see everywhere, such as plain white walls or plain electricity boxes, should be given some life. Local artists should be legally commissioned to cover these, so they are less of a blank canvas, and also add some interest to the community. I’ve often seen in places like Brighton and Berlin, that electricity boxes and things like that are often painted over by artists (and I’m not sure if it’s legal or illegal), such as box painted like a tram in Berlin, and a box in Brighton painted to look like a Game Boy. That is what I would call proper art, rather than the pathetic gang tags we see everywhere - the human equivalent of a dog marking its territory over a lamppost.

Allowing graffiti vandals to target railway infrastructure including trains is not something I agree with at all. There are some who seem to think it’s just harmless, and anyone who disagrees with it is backwards thinking or not ‘getting with the times’ and such rubbish. Not only do vandals put their own lives at risk, especially when they don’t understand how the third rail works, but other people’s lives at risk too.

There is the safety aspect when it covers safety critical things. Some graffiti artists are (relatively) sensible and don’t target safety critical things (I.e windscreens), but some don’t care, and others may accidentally do so.

Another important point is the impression it gives to passengers. Railways should be promoted as a clean and safe way to travel. We should not forget that many public transport users are vulnerable and welcome a safe and clean environment to travel in. Some may not agree with this, but graffiti on trains gives an impression to many of lawlessness and a lack of priority to safety.
And if we want to encourage people out of their cars and on to their railways - will some prefer to travel in their own personal transport, or choose a graffiti covered train?
Looking at some of the trains in Romania, which often have graffiti covered windows and cracked windows from stone throwing - I think I’d choose the car if I wasn’t an enthusiast!
It reminds me of the local suburban railway in Belgrade, Serbia - the trains are completely covered by graffiti including covering the windows, and with tags inside too. As an enthusiast, I really enjoyed the novelty of travelling on this. But as a regular commuter, would I really want to travel on that if I had a choice? Especially on dark winter evenings. Probably not!
 

nanstallon

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When I visited Belgium some years ago, I was amazed by the amount of graffiti on trains. It was so bad that I didn't feel like travelling on many of their trains. Britain, despite its yob culture and idiot apologists for them, is not as bad.

I'm not going to criticise those who call a spade a spade. Graffiti spraying is criminal damage, and I only wish that tragedies involving the death of graffiti 'artists' caused other such people to refrain from this behaviour.
 

HST274

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In general, this is actually one area where we compare reasonably favourably with quite a lot of Europe!
Absolutely. Mainland Europes railways have quite large perks the UK doesn't have but certainly in Italy I can't remember seeing a clean train. Graffiti on walls, trains, freight, everywhere!
 
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JKF

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I did see a load of people scatter out of Clifton Bridge Tunnel No.1 a couple of weeks ago when a freight train suddenly appeared on what is a barely used railway, I don’t think they expected to be disturbed. There was a newly painted piece just inside the tunnel that I noticed the next day.

Do drivers have cameras in cabs that would have captured them in the act?
 

MML

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A nice hefty fine will soon help pay for the clean up. If the cost of removing graffiti and security is in the hundreds, fines should be in the thousands. Enough to make people think twice and act as a deterrent.
Personally I'd opt for the Saudi punishment, after 2 prosecutions they won't have a hand left to hold a spray can.
I often dream of a job where I could spend all day painting signalling boxes a clean refreshing grey. Nothing more satisfying, though only in good weather.
 

AzureOtsu

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I know a few graffiti writers, the more you crack down on it the more cunning they'll become. Remember Tox & 10Foot?
 

philthetube

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Where I worked following the afore mentioned fatalities the general reaction of drivers was, good, at least that stops some of them. I did not hear anyone express sympathy.
 

Turtle

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I know a few graffiti writers, the more you crack down on it the more cunning they'll become. Remember Tox & 10Foot?
Stop calling them writers! They're just vandals who commit criminal damage.

Didn't a conservative MP have to issue a public apology for calling out the graffiti people who died on the line in London? I think there was a huge public outcry about it, at the time. I think it made national news, as I remember hearing about it on the radio news.
No. He was a TfL board member.

Doesn't mean that (metaphorically) dancing on their graves is justifiable. If you (god forbid) lost a relative I hope you'd be upset, even if they died through their own poor and/or illegal decisions.
I'd regret the waste of a life but when push comes to shove it was their decision to voluntarily throw it away via a criminal act.
I must say I'm surprised at the number of apologetic comments for these individuals on a website devoted to the Railway.
 
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furnessvale

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I know a few graffiti writers, the more you crack down on it the more cunning they'll become. Remember Tox & 10Foot?
Several I dealt with had plenty of time in jail to develop their cunning. When they came out, they developed other hobbies, or at least they never touched railway property again.
 

stuu

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I know a few graffiti writers, the more you crack down on it the more cunning they'll become. Remember Tox & 10Foot?
Tox got two years in prison, which doesn't strike me as particularly cunning
 

greyman42

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Didn't a conservative MP have to issue a public apology for calling out the graffiti people who died on the line in London? I think there was a huge public outcry about it, at the time. I think it made national news, as I remember hearing about it on the radio news.
As pointed out, it was a former TfL board member, but it makes my point that anyone criticising them gets slaughtered.
 

61653 HTAFC

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I must say I'm surprised at the number of apologetic comments for these individuals on a website devoted to the Railway.
Saying that it's distasteful to publicly rejoice at a person's death, is not the same as apologetics. Nor is attempting to understand the mentality and motivations behind behaviour that most of us want to see curtailed.
 

greyman42

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Certainly we should expect more from our politicians.
That's your opinion.

Certainly we should expect more from our politicians. A bit of messroom banter from rail staff at the expense of those killed, I'd have no problem with- gallows humour can be cathartic, and such things aren't intended for wider publication where relatives of the deceased may see them. But for a politician to publicly do the same thing would be a serious faux-pas.
So some are allowed to criticise and some are not?
 

61653 HTAFC

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That's your opinion.


So some are allowed to criticise and some are not?
Yes- surely it's obvious that something you say in the messroom among close colleagues doesn't hit with the weight it would if you were a politician, or indeed a TfL board member tweeting or speaking publicly. If you're in a senior position then everything you say as part of your position will be analysed by the media, your opponents, etc. If you make a comment that catches attention for the wrong reasons, you'll probably have to apologise.
I'm not even saying that that's the way things should be, it is just the way things are.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Unless you are in the messroom?
Again, this is a public forum, not a messroom. Likewise Twitter isn't a messroom.
I like a bit of gallows humour as much as anyone, I'd even say that it's a healthy way of dealing with the less pleasant aspects of life. But if you're in senior public position and use that same humour on social media (as the TfL person did), then don't be surprised if it comes back to bite you. At the end of the day the individual in question didn't lose their job, the only ill effects they suffered was having to make a sheepish apology.
 

philthetube

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Unfortunately the people who make the most noise are the minority, in my experience, I suspect that if a poll was taken asking, do you have sympathy for graffiti vandals who are killed by trains the answer would be no.

I am tempted to set up a poll on here but suspect that it would not be allowed.
 

greyman42

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Unfortunately the people who make the most noise are the minority, in my experience, I suspect that if a poll was taken asking, do you have sympathy for graffiti vandals who are killed by trains the answer would be no.

I am tempted to set up a poll on here but suspect that it would not be allowed.
I do not know anyone who has sympathy for them.
 

DaveTM

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The big problem with a little bit of graffiti is that it attracts a lot more graffiti. Seeing graffiti around has two effects; firstly it recruits new vandals who feel it would be cool to show their efforts, and secondly it encourages existing vandals to cover up rivals' efforts with their own.

So it is never a good idea to tolerate a little bit of graffiti.

Darwinist survival of the fittest and the long term survival of some vandals indicates they have adopted working practices that avoid most of the lineside dangers; but this is not true of new recruits. And the long term vandals are probably not expecting things like the "ghost trains" that are occasionally run at this time of year to scrape the ice off the 3rd rail in the small hours of the morning. If I remember correctly, the 3 vandals whose deaths were mentioned above were likely surprised by a train running when they were not expecting it. Whenever I am booked to work the first train of the morning or am asked to work a ghost train I always have a slightly raised anxiety because I am proving the line is clear of fallen trees, debris, and potential minced vandal.

In the light of this, I have started reporting any new graffiti I see, and I would encourage other drivers (and any other staff) to do likewise.
 
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