Grand Central application for expansion of existing services on the ECML

[YorkRailFan]

Arriva Group’s open access train operating company, Grand Central, has submitted an application to the ORR that could result in a significant uplift in capacity, around 30 per cent, for its services along existing routes connecting both the North East and West Yorkshire lines to London’s King’s Cross station.

The application includes a proposal for two additional daily return services between Bradford and London (with up to eight stops in between), bringing the total to six a day. It also includes an additional early morning connection from York into London King’s Cross, with a late evening return, bringing much needed additional capacity onto a key route, used by both business and leisure travellers.

Subject to approval, the new services could see more than 550,000 additional seats made available, a total uplift of more than 30 percent compared to what is available today. Services could launch around May 2025.

David Brown, Managing Director of Arriva’s UK Trains division, commented: “These proposals would bring more services and choice to passengers, building on the success of Grand Central’s open access operations, which connect a number of under-served communities in both the North East and West Yorkshire to London. This is a growth opportunity for the railway and a positive development for passengers and for our colleagues at Grand Central. By delivering additional services through open access, we can encourage more train travel, which is good for the environment and for communities, helping to ensure Britain’s rail system can thrive long into the future.”

Arriva Group has extensive operating experience across long-distance, commuter, urban, inter-urban and regional train services, through its UK Trains division which includes Grand Central, Chiltern Railways, CrossCountry and Arriva Rail London. It is the only owning group to have experience with all contract types currently in use on Britain’s railway, including national rail contracts, a concessionary contract and the open access company under the Grand Central brand.

Open access services often support and connect underserved communities, boosting economic growth and regeneration in the UK’s regions, outside of major hubs and without any Government subsidy. By improving inter and intra-regional connectivity, Grand Central supports the growing regional economies it serves, including smaller towns and cities that wouldn’t normally be interconnected.

Arriva’s Grand Central rail submits application to expand open access services in the UK

Grand Central has submitted an application to the Office of Rail and Road (ORR) for significant expansion of its services in the UK. Proposal set to improve connectivity and bring additional capacity with over 550,000 extra seats offered annually between the north of England and London. New...

news.arriva.co.uk

GC is currently struggling to provide their existing services with existing stock, it will be very interesting to see how they will provide this service unless they lease more stock.

The ORR will have to look if there are enough paths for these services to fit in to the current timetable, let alone the proposed timetable by LNER.

These services do make sense on the face of it, currently LNER dominates on early services from York to London with GC's earliest service from York to London arriving into London at roughly 10:20 meaning if one needed to be in London before 9am, LNER would be their only option if traveling the same day.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

There should be plenty of 22x stock available by the time any of these proposals come to fruition. I strongly suspect the Class 180s will disappear as soon as there's enough 22x available to replace.

I am surprised that Arriva has never considered brand new bi mode rolling stock for their routes - perhaps a new track access contract will give them the incentive.

 

[800001]

Also being discussed here:-

Grand Central apply to serve Seaham

GC have submitted an application for rights to serve Seaham today. They say four services per day will have a call inserted. They also plan to increase calls at Peterborough. In addition they are looking for extra rights for early and late services between York and London Kings Cross which have...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Driver068]

There should be plenty of 22x stock available by the time any of these proposals come to fruition. I strongly suspect the Class 180s will disappear as soon as there's enough 22x available to replace.

GC won't be getting more 221s, the 2x current sets are due to be returned by the end of the year as they are not ETCS compatible.

I am surprised that Arriva has never considered brand new bi mode rolling stock for their routes - perhaps a new track access contract will give them the incentive.

Talks currently ongoing with acquiring new train's but also aquire 80x variants. There the current rumour

 

[YorkRailFan]

GC won't be getting more 221s, the 2x current sets are due to be returned by the end of the year as they are not ETCS compatible.



Talks currently ongoing with acquiring new train's but also aquire 80x variants. There the current rumour

Could the 4 180s in storage in Ely be a short term option?

 

[Kite159]

Talks currently ongoing with acquiring new train's but also aquire 80x variants. There the current rumour

Bimodal trains for Grand Central makes sense considering the distance they cover under the wires. Also will remove the last passenger pure diesel trains from Kings Cross

 

[James90012]

A logical set of changes, and all I think can be achieved with the current number of rolling stock allocations.

The early morning York probably means around a 6am departure to form the current 08:26 King's cross to Sunderland, and similarly a 10pm ish departure from King's Cross forming from the 21:06 arrival from Sunderland. The latter would be valuable as LNER slows right down in the evening. ECS would presumably swap from Ferme Park to Crofton.

Seaham is fine - can't imagine it will deliver that much but won't cost anything to call there as there is a smattering of pathing allowances along the coast. Still curious about Peterborough calls - presumably though the 'additional stops' are in the additional proposed York services - the former is interesting as it would be arriving into King's Cross at a commutable time - and some of the Bradford services.

Bradford's are more complicated but I think it's possible to get 2 more services in each direction without more train diagrams than today - for example the 10:23 comes from Crofton which is quite late, so could feasibly be formed by a morning King's Cross to Bradford departure from London using the now available Ferme Park slot. Similarly in the evening the 18:00 arrival into Bradford goes to Crofton, so could do a later evening run to London too at quite a reasonable time and stable in Ferme Park.

In the middle of the day, it would be possible to 'step up' sets at King's Cross and have a set free from arrival at King's Cross at 10:14 (ex Sunderland) right through to the 16:48 Sunderland departure - conveniently about the right time it takes to get to Bradford and back.

Probably wrong as there will no doubt with other changes, but was interesting to work through.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If the rights are granted, when would the additional services be set to begin?
For the Bradford services there's going to be significant disruption over part of the route for the next few years, so it doesn't seem like the ideal time to be adding extra runs.

 

[YorkRailFan]

If the rights are granted, when would the additional services be set to begin?
For the Bradford services there's going to be significant disruption over part of the route for the next few years, so it doesn't seem like the ideal time to be adding extra runs.

May 2025 according to the Press release in post #1.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

May 2025 according to the Press release in post #1.

Thanks. I'd skimmed over and missed the date!

 

[The Middle]

Application is online now at the below link and clicking on 'current track access consultations'

Sale of access rights - Network Rail

All passenger and freight train operators who want to use our network require a track access contract, dealt with by our customer teams.

www.networkrail.co.uk

 

[YorkRailFan]

Application is online now at the below link and clicking on 'current track access consultations'

Sale of access rights - Network Rail

All passenger and freight train operators who want to use our network require a track access contract, dealt with by our customer teams.

www.networkrail.co.uk

Interesting that it includes 2 return Wakefield-Bradford services. Makes sense to have stock operating with passengers between Bradford and Wakefield (and vice versa) and then ESC to Crofton instead of Bradford to Crofton (and vice versa) ESC.

 

[Snow1964]

Grand Central now wants to extend its access rights to 2038

If they are granted, will get new fleet of bimodes by 2028 to replace the 180s

Arriva Group’s UK open access train operating company, Grand Central, has today announced it is seeking to extend its existing track access rights until 2038, securing its services for the next 15 years and unlocking Arriva’s intentions to invest in new, state-of-the-art trains.

Grand Central has been operating services on the East Coast mainline since 2007 as an open access operator, which means it receives no government funding or subsidy. It directly links 15 destinations, including cities in Yorkshire and the North East with London’s Kings Cross.

The application represents a significant commitment to long-term services and supports its plans to expand services with improved connectivity and increased frequency, as outlined in a previous application, submitted to the Office of Rail and Road in May this year.

Consultations begin with stakeholders today and Grand Central will be outlining its intentions to invest through procurement of Bi-Mode trains which are capable of operating on both electrified and non-electrified lines, offering greater flexibility and efficiency, while future-proofing its operation.

Subject to approval through the procurement process, new trains would bring significant benefits to passengers and communities, including:

• Increased capacity: The new trains would feature approximately 20 per cent more seats than the current Class 180 units, providing additional capacity to meet growing passenger demand.
• Modernised fleet: The new Bi-Mode trains would replace the existing 24-year-old Class 180 units bringing new customer focussed features and a more comfortable experience for passengers.
• Greener services: The Bi-mode trains would cut carbon emissions and provide smoother journeys for passengers. They can operate on electric and non-electric tracks, so they can serve long into the future as track electrification gathers pace across the UK.

Arriva's Grand Central applies for extended track access rights

Grand Central to submit application to the rail regulator for extended track access up to 2038. Proposals for a new, greener fleet are outlined as part of the application. Application signals Arriva’s long-term commitment to UK rail.

news.arriva.co.uk

 

[Trainguy34]

Grand Central now wants to extend its access rights to 2038

If they are granted, will get new fleet of bimodes by 2028 to replace the 180s

Arriva's Grand Central applies for extended track access rights

Grand Central to submit application to the rail regulator for extended track access up to 2038. Proposals for a new, greener fleet are outlined as part of the application. Application signals Arriva’s long-term commitment to UK rail.

news.arriva.co.uk

Sounds like good news, maybe they'll take a leaf out of LNER's book and go with something similar to the 897s.

 

[AndrewE]

Grand Central now wants to extend its access rights to 2038

If they are granted, will get new fleet of bimodes by 2028 to replace the 180s

Given that we are now over half way throught 2024, what chance is there of any current UK railway organisation getting a "new fleet of bimodes by 2028?" (not "some time after 2028" or "with test running commencing in 2028," note.)
Probably just commercial bluster.

 

[Snow1964]

Given that we are now over half way throught 2024, what chance is there of any current UK railway organisation getting a "new fleet of bimodes by 2028?" (not "some time after 2028" or "with test running commencing in 2028," note.)
Probably just commercial bluster.

Presumably if built a class 805, or 810 etc effectively as add on order to existing design, wouldn't need much test running, and no design time so would be much quicker to build.

But I agree, if go in for new untried design then unlikely to be in service in 3-4 years

 

[Driver068]

Presumably if built a class 805, or 810 etc effectively as add on order to existing design, wouldn't need much test running, and no design time so would be much quicker to build.

But I agree, if go in for new untried design then unlikely to be in service in 3-4 years

Speculation is a CAF model and to piggy back onto LNERs orders.
This would make sense for services to commence 2028 with orders submitted to commence building towards the end of 2025

Unsure how the timeline works however this is what's being discussed internally also

 

[YorkRailFan]

If they are granted, will get new fleet of bimodes by 2028 to replace the 180s

An end to the 180s would come as a joy to many, hopefully reliability would increase.

Who knows what the landscape will be in regard to OAOs, and what Labour's position towards them is. Naturally they aren't a priority for the DfT. An increase in capacity that GC promises is likely a method to get the ORR to allow GC to continue to use their precious ECML paths. 5 car trains on such an important route feels like a waste of paths, but something like a 810, could persuade the ORR.

 

[YorksLad12]

Presumably they would still be five-car units... but five longer cars than the 180s. Would that cause any issues at Kings Cross?

On the bright side, that would make all ECML LDHS services Hitachi or CAF, which is probably a good thing.

 

[800001]

Presumably they would still be five-car units... but five longer cars than the 180s. Would that cause any issues at Kings Cross?

On the bright side, that would make all ECML LDHS services Hitachi or CAF, which is probably a good thing.

No wouldn’t cause an issue as they currently share platforms with 5 car 8XX variants.

 

[Snow1964]

Who knows what the landscape will be in regard to OAOs, and what Labour's position towards them is. Naturally they aren't a priority for the DfT. An increase in capacity that GC promises is likely a method to get the ORR to allow GC to continue to use their precious ECML paths. 5 car trains on such an important route feels like a waste of paths, but something like a 810, could persuade the ORR.

Isn't the ORR independent and not under DfT direction.

The DFT does nominate the 11 Board members, for 5 years each, and some are officially non-executive, but I can't see anything that says once appointed members have to follow whatever fad the DfT policy is this month. I suspect Labour has not yet appointed anyone so still following old plan.

 

[Energy]

Talks currently ongoing with acquiring new train's but also aquire 80x variants. There the current rumour

Hitachi's Bounds Green depot near London is pretty full now and is very unlikely to be able to accommodate Grand Central without expansion, which there isn't much space for.

Speculation is a CAF model and to piggy back onto LNERs orders.
This would make sense for services to commence 2028 with orders submitted to commence building towards the end of 2025

Unsure how the timeline works however this is what's being discussed internally also

Sounds likely. Bimodes have been around for a while, I'd be surprised if Arriva/Grand Central hasn't engaged with Hitachi previously and has put it off until now that a suitable off-the-shelf alternative is available.

Isn't the ORR independent and not under DfT direction.

The DFT does nominate the 10 members, for 5 years each, but I can't see anything that says once appointed members have to follow whatever fad the DfT policy is this month. I suspect Labour has not yet appointed anyone so still following old plan.

Correct. The DfT can, and sometimes does, object to new open-access proposals through their TOCs if it believes they will abstract revenue from the current operator. The ORR can disregard the objection if they do not think it will abstract revenue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Presumably they would still be five-car units... but five longer cars than the 180s. Would that cause any issues at Kings Cross?

On the bright side, that would make all ECML LDHS services Hitachi or CAF, which is probably a good thing.

Civity vehicles are 24m, which is only 1m longer than 175/180 vehicles. Perhaps the extra capacity is gained by densifying?

 

[Blindtraveler]

Oo goody, more 80x more trains will really improve the travelling experience on the ecml, said pretty much nobody ever
Unless they go for something decent then grand Central for me will lose its unique selling point, given that it's no longer as cost conscious as it once was.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oo goody, more 80x more trains will really improve the travelling experience on the ecml, said pretty much nobody ever
Unless they go for something decent then grand Central for me will lose its unique selling point, given that it's no longer as cost conscious as it once was.

I don't think it would be hard to improve upon the mobile (sometimes) scrapyard/fire hazard that is the 180. Yes, the seats are nice, but there's not an awful lot else good about them. Luggage space for instance is woeful, you can barely get your coat in the overhead.

 

[800001]

Oo goody, more 80x more trains will really improve the travelling experience on the ecml, said pretty much nobody ever
Unless they go for something decent then grand Central for me will lose its unique selling point, given that it's no longer as cost conscious as it once was.

Who has said they would be 8Xx? No one

if they did, they would specify there own interior like Lumo, Avanti and EMR! (Lumo and Avanti both far more comfortable than gwr or LNER)

 

[Blindtraveler]

But ride quality still awful and I won't lie, I am a big fan of the 180. And as regards to anyone saying or not saying that they would be 80x this is a speculative thread so am I not allowed to speculate on how much worse the travelling experience is likely to be

 

[800001]

But ride quality still awful and I won't lie, I am a big fan of the 180. And as regards to anyone saying or not saying that they would be 80x this is a speculative thread so am I not allowed to speculate on how much worse the travelling experience is likely to be

People have commented that the 805s ride better than the other fleets, and yes you are right it’s a speculative thread.

You can speculate all you want, that’s what these threads are for.
But maybe best to see concrete plans from Grand central on what the new trains would be like before any of us start to say how worse they will be

 

[Blindtraveler]

I don't think it would be hard to improve upon the mobile (sometimes) scrapyard/fire hazard that is the 180. Yes, the seats are nice, but there's not an awful lot else good about them. Luggage space for instance is woeful, you can barely get your coat in the overhead.

Whilst I agree with you on luggage space and their rather unfortunate habit of combustion, the ride quality in my experience is the best I've ever enjoyed on the ecml with the possible exception of diverted sleeper services in the mk3 days, once up to power, the diesel engines fade quite nicely into the background in comparison to the likes of the voyagers meridians or 185 and I'm afraid nothing and I mean absolutely nothing will be persuade me to ever like the 80x family, I'm already counting the years until they are withdrawn

 

[Energy]

if they did, they would specify there own interior like Lumo, Avanti and EMR! (Lumo and Avanti both far more comfortable than gwr or LNER)

The 180s got done up with quite a nice interior, I'd expect something quite plush but off-the-shelf, perhaps with a modified cushion.

The FISA LEAN seems unlikely as the thick seat back limits the ability to pack more seats in. I could see either the Transcal seat used on 803,805,807s or a Fainsa Sophia with a much-improved cushion, like the 197s.