Grand Central apply to serve Seaham

[Starmill]

GC have submitted an application for rights to serve Seaham today. They say four services per day will have a call inserted. They also plan to increase calls at Peterborough.

In addition they are looking for extra rights for early and late services between York and London Kings Cross which have been previously reported, and two extra pairs to West Yorkshire.

Highlights of the proposed expansion include:

• Increased frequency: Up to two additional daily return services between London and Bradford (with stops at Peterborough, Doncaster, Pontefract, Wakefield, Mirfield, Brighouse, Halifax and Low Moor), bringing the total to six daily services and providing 360,000 additional seats per year (a 50% increase on seats currently offered on West Yorkshire services by Grand Central).
• Enhanced connectivity: An additional early morning departure from York to London Kings Cross and a late-evening return service will provide extra capacity at critical times of the day for both business and leisure travellers, adding an extra 195,000 more seats.
• New direct services: Introduction of four new daily calls at Seaham in Durham, providing passengers with a new direct connection to London. This will be the towns’ first and only direct connection to the Capital.
• Additional stops: Some of the new services will include additional stops at Peterborough.

Arriva’s Grand Central rail submits application to expand open access services in the UK

Grand Central has submitted an application to the Office of Rail and Road (ORR) for significant expansion of its services in the UK. Proposal set to improve connectivity and bring additional capacity with over 550,000 extra seats offered annually between the north of England and London. New...

news.arriva.co.uk

 

[MontyP]

Do they have the stock for these extra services?

 

[Jim]

The ORR (or whoever it is these days) should be looking at their ability to run the current service commitments first surely ?! That said, the railway seems quite "pro" open access at the moment.

 

[SeanG]

I'm not sure that voyagers have SDO and in order to serve Seaham SDO will be required (115m platforms vs a 162m class 180) so I would imagine that 180s would stay on the Sunderland services

 

[Starmill]

Do they have the stock for these extra services?

I guess inserting additional calls technically doesn't cost any stock as it's just covered by tightening turnaround times.

The extra services will probably be another matter but if it's only two each way per day it's probably only one diagram. The York services sound like they're just early and late, so just longer turns on existing diagrams.

I'm not sure that voyagers have SDO and in order to serve Seaham SDO will be required (115m platforms vs a 162m class 180) so I would imagine that 180s would stay on the Sunderland services

To be fair the number of people who are likely to be using Seaham probably can all go in and out through the one door anyway.

 

[Jim]

I guess inserting additional calls technically doesn't cost any stock as it's just covered by tightening turnaround times.

The extra services will probably be another matter but if it's only two each way per day it's probably only one diagram. The York services sound like they're just early and late, so just longer turns on existing diagrams.


To be fair the number of people who are likely to be using Seaham probably can all go in and out through the one door anyway.

I don't think Voyagers that that function do they?

 

[Kite159]

I don't think Voyagers that that function do they?

Bit of a mute point considering the voyagers haven't operated on the Sunderland route and the last I saw GC were off-loading them at the end of the current short-term lease, so by the time Seaham gets added as a call they will be back to all 180 operation.

----

Now what the ORR should be looking into is forcing Grand Central onto a standard Delay Repay style system to pay out for delays rather than the current passenger charter system where you need to be over an hour late before getting back 50% of a single ticket, only getting the full value back if the delay is over 3 hours. So forcing them onto the more standard system, paying out for over 30 minutes would be a good start

 

[SeanG]

I have to say, living locally to and with family in Seaham, I would imagine that many will still drive to Durham (it's only 20 mins) for an hourly service to London which is more or less reliable and is much nicer to be on, and quicker

 

[Driver068]

I'm not sure that voyagers have SDO and in order to serve Seaham SDO will be required (115m platforms vs a 162m class 180) so I would imagine that 180s would stay on the Sunderland services

Voyagers are not seen as a long term solution as the current 2x sets are due to be returned towards the end of the year.
Both the UP and DOWN platforms as you correctly say are 115m long, however a single 180 is 116.5m long. Not sure if SDO would be required as you could have the nose of the set off the platform allowing all doors including both crew doors, front and rear to be accommodated on the platform. Similar approach to LNER with the 91s when used North of Newcastle when stopping on the DOWN platform.

 

[swt_passenger]

Running a York to Kings Cross service sounds a bit unlikely, surely it’s primarily abstractive? Don’t LNER have a generally half hourly service to/from York, so how can GC show they’re adding new passengers?

 

[DarloRich]

Why Seaham? I know it has been undergoing a regeneration and is now a nice seaside town unrecognisable form how it was a few years ago but a London service?

What am I missing here?

 

[Driver068]

Why Seaham? I know it has been undergoing a regeneration and is now a nice seaside town unrecognisable form how it was a few years ago but a London service?

What am I missing here?

I dont understand Seaham approach either. You would think Horden would be a viable option giving it has a park and ride...or a car park big enough for a high volume of passengers

 

[DarloRich]

I dont understand Seaham approach either. You would think Horden would be a viable option giving it has a park and ride...or a car park big enough for a high volume of passengers

if I was in the area Seaham is a nice spot to visit now - it has the Tommy statue and a nice harbour area. It also has Seaham Hall ( a very fancy hotel once occupied by Lord Byron by way of marriage) and the coast line is really lovely in that area but I must be missing something.

Has a larger employer moved into one of the industrial estates? There has been a lot of housing built around there also. My cousin lived there for a while. Is there some coin to be made out of Seaham > Sunderland or Seamham > Teesside journeys?

 

[357]

Do they have the stock for these extra services?

A quick table top exercise I've just done has established they can do this without needing any more units in service each day. Most of the GC units only do one return trip per day at the moment.

 

[harz99]

Running a York to Kings Cross service sounds a bit unlikely, surely it’s primarily abstractive? Don’t LNER have a generally half hourly service to/from York, so how can GC show they’re adding new passengers?

I wonder if that's more about saving the need to lodge traincrew overnight at the London end, and ensuring all the units end up at Crofton every night.

 

[swt_passenger]

I wonder if that's more about saving the need to lodge traincrew overnight at the London end, and ensuring all the units end up at Crofton every night.

Possibly. I was also wondering if they were timed for before the first and after the last LNER services they might get away with it being less abstractive?

 

[HST43257]

I presume these services will feed into the 0826 dep off KGX for SUN and the 2106 arr into KGX from SUN. Something like 0535 off YRK for 0735 into KGX*, and 2130 off KGX for 2330 into YRK? Might get away from revenue abstraction that way as there’s no LNER then

* Very tight pathing gap at St Neots on this one but just follow the 0505 off LDS

 

[Adam0984]

An early up service and late down service was previously planned from Wakefield K to London to get rid of the Sunderland night stop

 

[Starmill]

Possibly. I was also wondering if they were timed for before the first and after the last LNER services they might get away with it being less abstractive?

I think their intention may be that they'll show they're filling an hour's gap in direct services which would otherwise exist. Arrivals in London are 0700 then nothing until 0808. Departures are 2000, then nothing until 2100, then 2200, then 2300. But I can't see the application online to ORR so I can't say for sure.

An early up service and late down service was previously planned from Wakefield K to London to get rid of the Sunderland night stop

I think those might have even appeared in the schedules in 2020 but never managed to actually run? The Peterborough stops were going to be on those too I recall. I guess the proposed York services will do this job.

Why Seaham? I know it has been undergoing a regeneration and is now a nice seaside town unrecognisable form how it was a few years ago but a London service?

What am I missing here?

Presumably they've just gone "we need to get a bit more custom so we need to find ways to add some more stops" as part of their business plan. They added Low Moor in 2017 and tried to add Peterborough a few times previously, which they're now ramping up. So now it's a game of where's left? Not many places really. Presumably their intelligence suggests better demand from Seaham than Horden, Seaton Carew, Billingham, Stockton or Yarm.

 

[harz99]

In many ways Horden would be much better, a bigger catchment area, a big underused well lit free car park, accessible platforms via ramps, however I'm not sure that a 5 car 180 will fit, certainly 4 car 156 and 158 do.

 

[Starmill]

In many ways Horden would be much better, a bigger catchment area, a big underused well lit free car park, accessible platforms via ramps, however I'm not sure that a 5 car 180 will fit, certainly 4 car 156 and 158 do.

I sort of hoped they'd serve Horden from the get go, given they picked up Low Moor. However there are better loadings between Hartlepool and Sunderland than there were between Halifax and Bradford Interchange so it was probably a more obvious decision. Seaham to York or London takes ~10 minutes longer by road than Horden does, so the train can pick up an extra 5-7 minute relative advantage in best journey time, but that is a tiny factor on four stops per day.

 

[Driver068]

A quick table top exercise I've just done has established they can do this without needing any more units in service each day. Most of the GC units only do one return trip per day at the moment.

Not entirely true. There's only 2 180s between Bradford and Sunderland that do one return trip.

I wonder if that's more about saving the need to lodge traincrew overnight at the London end, and ensuring all the units end up at Crofton every night.

3 sometimes 4 180s are stabled at Tyne over night. This won't be changed anytime soon. Also there's no plan from internal sources to do away with lodge turns. However I accept this might change.

I presume these services will feed into the 0826 dep off KGX for SUN and the 2106 arr into KGX from SUN. Something like 0535 off YRK for 0735 into KGX*, and 2130 off KGX for 2330 into YRK? Might get away from revenue abstraction that way as there’s no LNER then

* Very tight pathing gap at St Neots on this one but just follow the 0505 off LDS

The 0827hrs departure from KGX forms the 1230hrs departure from Sunderland ten returns to Sunderland ending at Tyne Yard.
2106hrs stables at Ferme Park overnight to form the off lodge at 0827hrs to Sunderland.
For that to work they'll have to jigg services around anyway.
GC will be getting additional units and I anticipate something will happen in the near future to make the above work.

In many ways Horden would be much better, a bigger catchment area, a big underused well lit free car park, accessible platforms via ramps, however I'm not sure that a 5 car 180 will fit, certainly 4 car 156 and 158 do.

A 180 won't fit at Horden as platform is 100m in both directions where a unit is 116.5m, however it would work with SDO in operation.

 

[Kite159]

It would be nice if there was a later departure from Bradford to London than the 14:49 service to London [on a weekday/ and probably an earlier first arrival than from the 1057 London Kings Cross to Bradford Interchange service. Even if it did mean an extra unit stabling overnight at the London end [unless they work it to form an early morning Doncaster - London nonstop service then returning to Doncaster in the evening [or even Wakefield Kirkgate as in my experience the GC services to Bradford do empty out by Wakefield

 

[harz99]

@Driver068 when you say more units coming soon, is that more 180s, something 220/221/222 or something completely different?

 

[harz99]

Well after the last 14 days of stock issues causing cancellations, and over this past weekend staffing issues on top causing more cancellations on both routes, any talk of more services/station stops should be kicked into touch as unrealistic!

 

[MotCO]

Well after the last 14 days of stock issues causing cancellations, and over this past weekend staffing issues on top causing more cancellations on both routes, any talk of more services/station stops should be kicked into touch as unrealistic!

Maybe getting more services will mean more staff required which may make it more resilient to cancellations? (Bigger pool of staff to call on.)