Grand Central December 2019 Timetable

[800002]

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #13 originally in this thread.

The verdicts' in:

I suspect we will see the GC service at 0757 as you suggest

Courtesy of RTT:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...6/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=GC

Grand central schedules are up.
Sunderland (ex-KGX) @ *0827 (1N90); 1127 (1N92); 1257 (1N93); *1427 (1N95); 1648 (1N94); 1927 (1N95)

Bradford (ex-KGX) @ 1057 (1D71); 1448 (1D73); 1627 (1D81); 1954 (1D95);

Wakefield K'gate @ *2147 (1D99)

* are amended departure / additional for Dec 19

 

[800002]

Other interesting things to note:
Addition AM up - 1A99 Wakefield K'gate dep 0502 (doncaster: 0526-0531; Peterborough: 0618-0620) arr 0717.

Additional PM down - 1D99 ex-KGX 2147, (Peterborough 2293-2241; Doncaster 2342-2347; Wakfield K'gate 0015)
0827 1N90 - aditional stop Peterborough 0912-0914;

Additional Sunderland Up - dep 0955 (1A64) arr. 1351.

The remaining SX looks to be the same / very similar (save for a minute or two in a couple schedules).

Not looking at SO / SuO - shalt be either.

Post script:
I did a quick look and the 0827 path (infront of the Newcastle at 0830 wasn't mentioned)

 

[bramling]

Other interesting things to note:
Addition AM up - 1A99 Wakefield K'gate dep 0502 (doncaster: 0526-0531; Peterborough: 0618-0620) arr 0717.

Additional PM down - 1D99 ex-KGX 2147, (Peterborough 2293-2241; Doncaster 2342-2347; Wakfield K'gate 0015)
0827 1N90 - aditional stop Peterborough 0912-0914;

Additional Sunderland Up - dep 0955 (1A64) arr. 1351.

The remaining SX looks to be the same / very similar (save for a minute or two in a couple schedules).

Not looking at SO / SuO - shalt be either.

Post script:
I did a quick look and the 0827 path (infront of the Newcastle at 0830 wasn't mentioned)

Unless I’m missing something those workings don’t balance. Two trips into Bounds Green during the day but only one out (unless something works as a double set).

 

[800002]

Unless I’m missing something those workings don’t balance. Two trips into Bounds Green during the day but only one out (unless something works as a double set).

It might not have published properly / be under dispute.
I would hazzard a guess at a 5D99 to form the 1D99 (unless 5Y69 doesn't get activated (being a Q path)).
Could also possibly be set rotation.

Edit: the 5A61 1253 is also a Q path - so may not be required to run to Bounds Green (same, I see now with 5A90, ex ferme park at 0648)
I'll take a closer look at the possible diagram working to see...

 

[bramling]

It might not have published properly / be under dispute.
I would hazzard a guess at a 5D99 to form the 1D99 (unless 5Y69 doesn't get activated (being a Q path)).
Could also possibly be set rotation.

Edit: the 5A61 1253 is also a Q path - so may not be required to run to Bounds Green (same, I see now with 5A90, ex ferme park at 0648)
I'll take a closer look at the possible diagram working to see...

Thinks I’ve sussed it now, 1A61 must form 1N93. There’s a wrong platform number somewhere in there.

 

[800002]

Thinks I’ve sussed it now, 1A61 must form 1N93. There’s a wrong platform number somewhere in there.

I think I concur, allbeit without the 'must'...
I think the following occurs, SX.

North Eastern:
5N90 (ex-ferme park Q) / 1A99 - 1N90 - 1A65 - 1N94 -5N94 (heaton)

5A60 (ex-heaton) - 1A60 - 1N92 - 1A66 - 1N96 - 5N96 (heaton)

5A61 (ex-heaton) - 1A61 - 5A61 (Bounds Green Q) / 1N93 - 1A69 - 5Y69 (ferme park Q) / 1D99 - 5D99 (crofton)

5A64 (ex-heaton) - 1A64 - 1N95 - 5N95 (heaton)

West Riding:
5A59 (ex-crofton) - 1A59 - 1D71 - 1A67 - 1D95 - 5D95 (crofton)

5A70 (ex-crofton) - 1A70 - 5A70 (bounds green) - 5D81 (ex-Bounds Green) - 1D81 - 5D81 (crofton)

5A63 (ex-crofton) - 1A63 - 1D73 - 5D73 (crofton)

Crofton has 3 starters / 4 finishers
Heaton has 3 starters / 3 finishers
Ferme park has 1 Q starter / 1 Q finisher.

Looks like GC have successfully eliminated their overnight lodge diagram (currently: sunderland set 1A69 - 1N90 (via ferme park
*5a64 / 5n95 dont show schedules yet.
*ommitted shunt moves at Sunderland.
* Q path ECS highlighted in bold. I would guess they may be there for 'service recovery' if 1D99 doesn't run (and 5Y69 does) than 1A99 likely to be caped the following morning.

 

[Class 170101]

I think I concur, allbeit without the 'must'...
I think the following occurs, SX.

North Eastern:
5N90 (ex-ferme park Q) / 1A99 - 1N90 - 1A65 - 1N94 -5N94 (heaton)

5A60 (ex-heaton) - 1A60 - 1N92 - 1A66 - 1N96 - 5N96 (heaton)

5A61 (ex-heaton) - 1A61 - 5A61 (Bounds Green Q) / 1N93 - 1A69 - 5Y69 (ferme park Q) / 1D99 - 5D99 (crofton)

5A64 (ex-heaton) - 1A64 - 1N95 - 5N95 (heaton)

West Riding:
5A59 (ex-crofton) - 1A59 - 1D71 - 1A67 - 1D95 - 5D95 (crofton)

5A70 (ex-crofton) - 1A70 - 5A70 (bounds green) - 5D81 (ex-Bounds Green) - 1D81 - 5D81 (crofton)

5A63 (ex-crofton) - 1A63 - 1D73 - 5D73 (crofton)

Crofton has 3 starters / 4 finishers
Heaton has 3 starters / 3 finishers
Ferme park has 1 Q starter / 1 Q finisher.

Looks like GC have successfully eliminated their overnight lodge diagram (currently: sunderland set 1A69 - 1N90 (via ferme park
*5a64 / 5n95 dont show schedules yet.
*ommitted shunt moves at Sunderland.
* Q path ECS highlighted in bold. I would guess they may be there for 'service recovery' if 1D99 doesn't run (and 5Y69 does) than 1A99 likely to be caped the following morning.

But Crofton is unbalanced unless there is a double arrival.

 

[bramling]

But Crofton is unbalanced unless there is a double arrival.

I make it four out four in. The Q paths presumably allow for engineering work (or disruption?), so if one runs then something else would have to be adjusted to achieve balance.

The Wakefield Kirkgate services seem to be a glorified ECS to get the stock (and presumably also the crew) back to Yorkshire. Presumably they think they can fill them well enough to make it worthwhile, presumably assisted by the Peterborough call.

 

[800002]

But Crofton is unbalanced unless there is a double arrival.

Good spot - apologies.

1A99 0502 Wakfield K'gate has no ECS under GC colours.

Would sumize it's the leading unit attached to Hull Trains 5D92 0330 Crofton - Hull @ K'gate 0351 - 0445 as a an RM - but there is no traffic detach indicator on the schedule.
http://charlwoodhouse.co.uk/rail/liverail/train/16671104/31/07/19

EDIT: Crofton Depot line up: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/XRF/2019/12/16/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

 

[bramling]

Good spot - apologies.

1A99 0502 Wakfield K'gate has no ECS under GC colours.

Would sumize it's the leading unit attached to Hull Trains 5D92 0330 Crofton - Hull @ K'gate 0351 - 0445 as a an RM - but there is no traffic detach indicator on the schedule.
http://charlwoodhouse.co.uk/rail/liverail/train/16671104/31/07/19

EDIT: Crofton Depot line up: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/XRF/2019/12/16/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

The HT ECS is only a Q path, so that theory may fall down. I’d have thought it’s more plausible that this is a schedule which simply hasn’t been uploaded yet. I can’t see this service coming from anywhere other than Crofton.

 

[800002]

I make it four out four in.

No. Currently RTT is showing (hree out from Crofton and Four in, under Grand Central.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...6/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=GC

 

[800002]

The HT ECS is only a Q path, so that theory may fall down. I’d have thought it’s more plausible that this is a schedule which simply hasn’t been uploaded yet. I can’t see this service coming from anywhere other than Crofton.

Or that, yes. Shall wait and see if another schedule pops up.
The HT 0330 ex-crofton is probably to cover the Beverly - KGX which is at Hull as 1A91 0618-0626.

 

[bramling]

Or that, yes. Shall wait and see if another schedule pops up.
The HT 0330 ex-crofton is probably to cover the Beverly - KGX which is at Hull as 1A91 0618-0626.

I think it’s a reasonable assumption to make. Missing schedules at this stage is by no means uncommon (indeed it’s a pain in the backside when writing simsig timetables at an early stage before a timetable has actually come in for real!).

In this case we have a service which starts from Kirkgate with on paper nothing to make it up, and on paper an imbalance at Crofton. When put like that it sounds like a pretty safe bet!

 

[TheBigD]

I seem to remember (but could be wrong) that Grand Central applied for the Peterborough stops and the extra Wakefield train a couple of years ago but was refused.

Have these extra stops and extra Wakefield service been approved this time?

 

[800002]

I seem to remember (but could be wrong) that Grand Central applied for the Peterborough stops and the extra Wakefield train a couple of years ago but was refused.

Have these extra stops and extra Wakefield service been approved this time?

I would say 'Yes' as they are in the timetable plan from Dec 19.

 

[pdeaves]

EDIT: Crofton Depot line up: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/XRF/2019/12/16/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

Please forgive the brief aside: I notice this link gives TP services (as it does with today's date). What work does Crofton do for Transpennine? Presumably some 185s on behalf of Siemens?

 

[swt_passenger]

Copied from the general Dec 2019 thread:

I seem to remember (but could be wrong) that Grand Central applied for the Peterborough stops and the extra Wakefield train a couple of years ago but was refused.

Have these extra stops and extra Wakefield service been approved this time???

The ORR website still seems to have these as pending section 22A applications for Dec 2018, but I haven’t found a decision online yet: https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/27687/s22a-grand-central-7th-sa-application-form.pdf
Needless to say there were numerous objections regarding revenue abstraction and a similar number of GC rebuttals...

 

[TheBigD]

Copied from the general Dec 2019 thread:


The ORR website still seems to have these as pending section 22A applications for Dec 2018, but I haven’t found a decision online yet: https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/27687/s22a-grand-central-7th-sa-application-form.pdf
Needless to say there were numerous objections regarding revenue abstraction and a similar number of GC rebuttals...

I see from that application that Grand Central are also proposing the following...

An additional 1824 Bradford - Kings Cross, attached the last Southbound Sunderland - Kings Cross at Doncaster

An extra 2148 ex Kings Cross to both Wakefield and York, splitting at Doncaster

 

[swt_passenger]

I see from that application that Grand Central are also proposing the following...

An additional 1824 Bradford - Kings Cross, attached the last Southbound Sunderland - Kings Cross at Doncaster

An extra 2148 ex Kings Cross to both Wakefield and York, splitting at Doncaster

I suppose if they keep chipping away eventually they’ll get something...

 

[800002]

Please forgive the brief aside: I notice this link gives TP services (as it does with today's date). What work does Crofton do for Transpennine? Presumably some 185s on behalf of Siemens?

I, personally, have no idea.

 

[Tractor37]

Please forgive the brief aside: I notice this link gives TP services (as it does with today's date). What work does Crofton do for Transpennine? Presumably some 185s on behalf of Siemens?

Class 185's which terminate at Doncaster off the Cleethorpes trains run ECS to Crofton for servicing.

 

[pdeaves]

Class 185's which terminate at Doncaster off the Cleethorpes trains run ECS to Crofton for servicing.

Thanks!

 

[Starmill]

Have GC published their timetable PDF yet?

 

[Deerfold]

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #13 originally in this thread.

The verdicts' in:

Courtesy of RTT:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...6/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=GC

Grand central schedules are up.
Sunderland (ex-KGX) @ *0827 (1N90); 1127 (1N92); 1257 (1N93); *1427 (1N95); 1648 (1N94); 1927 (1N95)

Bradford (ex-KGX) @ 1057 (1D71); 1448 (1D73); 1627 (1D81); 1954 (1D95);

Wakefield K'gate @ *2147 (1D99)

* are amended departure / additional for Dec 19

Looks like the 0827, 1427 amd 2147 have all disappeared.

 

[Deerfold]

Have GC published their timetable PDF yet?

Yes.

https://www.grandcentralrail.com/sites/grandcentralrail.com/files/files/timetables/Dec 19 TT for web.pdf

Only changes from the current services are changes in times by a minute or two.

 

[s'land]

Yes.

https://www.grandcentralrail.com/sites/grandcentralrail.com/files/files/timetables/Dec 19 TT for web.pdf

Only changes from the current services are changes in times by a minute or two.

When is the 6th daily return service starting?

 

[Ianno87]

Yes.

https://www.grandcentralrail.com/sites/grandcentralrail.com/files/files/timetables/Dec 19 TT for web.pdf

Only changes from the current services are changes in times by a minute or two.

No Peterborough stops then....

 

[Deerfold]

I've no more information than the new timetable leaflet.

 

[swt_passenger]

No Peterborough stops then....

What a surprise...

 

[800002]

Looks like the 0827, 1427 amd 2147 have all disappeared.

Think the 0827 (1N90) is still in the timetable. It is currently the 0806 ex-Kings Cross.

The 1427 (1N95) to Sunderland appears to have been deleted on the 5th August. Along with 1A64, the previous arrival from Sunderland.

The 2147 (1D99) to Wakefield appears to have been deleted from the database on the 5th August, along with the AM Up service 1A99 ex-Wakefield.

So appears that none of the additional services in the first publication have survived to fruition in Dec19.

I suppose it was always going to be tricky to run seven SX diagrams...