Grand Central Rail- 8 passenger seats closed off

[357]

Guards aren’t permitted to remain in the rear cab? Are you sure?!

There’s a few other TOCs who didn’t get that memo!

I was on about the luggage area. The cab is not a crumple zone!

 

[Towers]

Cabs aren’t great to sit in for eating etc. Plus there’s always the risk of the emergency brake being knocked.

It looks like the area shown above is for sitting/relaxing. I don’t know where the idea that they’re leaving equipment there has come from(?) - that could indeed be securely stowed in the cab behind the seating area if they weren’t using it.

I mean in terms of working the train; certainly people shouldn’t be taking breaks in them I agree!

I was on about the luggage area. The cab is not a crumple zone!

It’ll be fine for leaving guards’ kit in though! And of course you’ve got to pass through it to get in or out of said cab!

 

[357]

It’ll be fine for leaving guards’ kit in though! And of course you’ve got to pass through it to get in or out of said cab!

Indeed, I was on about expecting staff to take their break in there! It's not prohibited to pass through that area but you it is not advisable to remain in there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is a bit of a non-thread. As noted above there isn’t a separate galley/area on 180s, so it seems quite reasonable to partition off a few seats.

God forbid staff should be able to take a break away from the travelling public - that won’t go down at all well on here!

While the idea of a staff compartment (DB label them Dienstabteil on old compartment stock) does make some sense, I think it also makes sense to partition it off properly. Staff do need their proper break, but the optics of them lounging across two tables, one each, on a busy train as I said isn't good. If GC wanted to do this properly they could have a proper partition added and it wouldn't be as visible.

 

[Towers]

Indeed, I was on about expecting staff to take their break in there! It's not prohibited to pass through that area but you it is not advisable to remain in there.

I think we’ve got wires more crossed than the OHLE on a windy day!

The impression I got from guards leaving their kit in the First Class catering area was that they weren’t/can’t use the rear cab, which of course is the obvious place to leave it. Totally agree it isn’t appropriate for taking a break (although plenty do seem to use them as picnic areas!), nor the bike van crumple zone!

I also agree that the picture at the top of the thread gives a bad impression, not only in terms of crew sat in passenger seats and within earshot of them, but also in looking woefully unprofessional.

While the idea of a staff compartment (DB label them Dienstabteil on old compartment stock) does make some sense, I think it also makes sense to partition it off properly. Staff do need their proper break, but the optics of them lounging across two tables, one each, on a busy train as I said isn't good. If GC wanted to do this properly they could have a proper partition added and it wouldn't be as visible.

I agree.

 

[43066]

While the idea of a staff compartment (DB label them Dienstabteil on old compartment stock) does make some sense, I think it also makes sense to partition it off properly. Staff do need their proper break, but the optics of them lounging across two tables, one each, on a busy train as I said isn't good. If GC wanted to do this properly they could have a proper partition added and it wouldn't be as visible.

Yes indeed. Unfortunately the layout of the stock is fundamentally compromised and won’t allow that, so this is clearly the fudged solution GC have come up with.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

It likely won't be the guard who is having their break as they "shouldn't" be having a break on a train that they are actually working at that particular moment, they will likely have a break scheduled "off" train, it will likely be other train crew who are not safety critical and can have a break onboard (personally don't think that's right either though) as it's other crew they won't have cab passes so they wouldn't be allowed to take a break in the cab hence why it's in the train compartment

 

[Towers]

It likely won't be the guard who is having their break as they "shouldn't" be having a break on a train that they are actually working at that particular moment, they will likely have a break scheduled "off" train, it will likely be other train crew who are not safety critical and can have a break onboard (personally don't think that's right either though) as it's other crew they won't have cab passes so they wouldn't be allowed to take a break in the cab hence why it's in the train compartment

It might have nothing to do with anyone taking a break, and simply be an arrangement that has been put in place to guarantee space for any colleagues who need to travel on the service as part of a diagram - I’ve no idea if that’s a feature of GC’s usual operations? If trains are consistently full to capacity it may have been seen as a necessity, albeit a very clumsy one.

 

[357]

It likely won't be the guard who is having their break as they "shouldn't" be having a break on a train that they are actually working at that particular moment, they will likely have a break scheduled "off" train, it will likely be other train crew who are not safety critical and can have a break onboard (personally don't think that's right either though) as it's other crew they won't have cab passes so they wouldn't be allowed to take a break in the cab hence why it's in the train compartment

I'm have a cab pass and I would refuse to take my break in a back/middle/front cab.

I need a proper seat and a proper table, preferably somewhere to charge my phone, and access to hot water/microwave.

I'm sure most companies have an agreement with the union regarding what facilities need to be offered in order to be a usable area for a break.

 

[LowLevel]

It likely won't be the guard who is having their break as they "shouldn't" be having a break on a train that they are actually working at that particular moment, they will likely have a break scheduled "off" train, it will likely be other train crew who are not safety critical and can have a break onboard (personally don't think that's right either though) as it's other crew they won't have cab passes so they wouldn't be allowed to take a break in the cab hence why it's in the train compartment

Depends on the company. Until the 360s came in the EMR train managers took their breaks on the trains they were working as time allowed as part of a pay deal from years ago and didn't have rostered PNBs.

 

[357]

the method of work required them to have access to the buzzer.

Must be a bizarre method of work to have guards leaning out a tiny window that I would be unable to fit my shoulders through instead of having a door where they would at least be able to step onto the platform.

180 cabs do not have any external doors. I believe there is a guards panel at every passenger doorway.

 

[Towers]

Must be a bizarre method of work to have guards leaning out a tiny window that I would be unable to fit my shoulders through instead of having a door where they would at least be able to step onto the platform.

180 cabs do not have any external doors. I believe there is a guards panel at every passenger doorway.

The original method of work, when on the Western, required the driver & guard to return a buzzer code before the doors were released, dispatch then took place from a door panel.

 

[RAPC]

I have to be honest, the crew area isn't bothering me at all in this photo. However the coat slung across the top of the seats behind the passenger on the right hand side is causing me some anxiety!

 

[RHolmes]

Why aren't GC staff taking breaks at allocated break locations. E.G stations/mess rooms?

On some open access operators breaks are taken on service trains

The DfT we’re trying to impose breaks on trains as part of their ‘reform’ in the original RMT pay deals

 

[northwichcat]

Or on their legal requirement break perhaps? I'm sure that everyone would agree staff should not have to sit next to customers while having their break.

Only if they are in clearly marked rail uniform. If you work at an event you don't get a designated staff break area. You are expected to remove anything that identifies you as a staff member while you're on a break though. Some staff actually seem to like chatting to passengers/customers during their breaks.

 

[Deafdoggie]

If staff can take their break whilst on the train, does that mean the train is over-staffed or they are under-worked?
I just think that if I could take a break I'd be worried about my job security.

 

[800001]

If staff can take their break whilst on the train, does that mean the train is over-staffed or they are under-worked?
I just think that if I could take a break I'd be worried about my job security.

I find it strange that they don’t take break on train when it has terminated, prior to its back working.

See that With Hull trains and have seen it with GC at King’s Cross.

 

[skyhigh]

If staff can take their break whilst on the train, does that mean the train is over-staffed or they are under-worked?

What a bizarre attitude.

Staff are rostered breaks on trains because that is operationally most efficient for diagramming purposes, i.e. requires the lowest number of staff overall. Why would that mean the train is over-staffed or they are under worked?

I just think that if I could take a break I'd be worried about my job security.

Last I checked, breaks were a legal requirement. Are you seriously suggesting that any job where someone can take a break means job security is at risk?

 

[trebor79]

That area is called a crumple zone. I hope I don't need to explain why people aren't permitted to remain in that area.

Piffle. What about the person up front?

 

[virgintrain1]

Some TOCs do not allow guards to enter the rear cab except in an emergency. Only drivers or those issues with 'rear can passes'.

 

[Wolfie]

Eh? Why on earth not? Heaven forbid they should sit next to the great unwashed!

8 seats. For two people. Come on...

Because they wouldn't get a break! Every entitled Herbert among "the great unwashed" would be demanding their attention every two minutes.

 

[Deafdoggie]

What a bizarre attitude.

Staff are rostered breaks on trains because that is operationally most efficient for diagramming purposes, i.e. requires the lowest number of staff overall. Why would that mean the train is over-staffed or they are under worked?


Last I checked, breaks were a legal requirement. Are you seriously suggesting that any job where someone can take a break means job security is at risk?

I think you've misunderstood my point.
Surely you want to keep staff numbers on a train to the minimum? Carrying extra staff around to cover for those having a break seems an unnecessary expense. Either that, or their job can go uncovered whilst they have a break, which seems to make their job unnecessary
I'm sorry that it needs spelling out, I would have thought it obvious (but clearly it isn't) so apologies, I'm NOT in any way suggesting staff should not have a break. I took that as read, I'm sorry you thought otherwise. I'm just saying that it surely makes more sense for the staff to have their break when the train does, as someone else pointed out, like Hull Trains. Not whilst it is in motion.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Or on their legal requirement break perhaps? I'm sure that everyone would agree staff should not have to sit next to customers while having their break.

People would also agree that they shouldn’t have said break in passenger accommodation then.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I just think that if I could take a break I'd be worried about my job security.

If that's the prevailing view at your employer I'd suggest you should probably consider changing jobs!

 

[Deafdoggie]

If that's the prevailing view at your employer I'd suggest you should probably consider changing jobs!

I meant in the context of working on a train and taking a break on the train. Clearly my job isn't important enough to be required for the whole journey so is it required for any of it?

 

[RHolmes]

People would also agree that they shouldn’t have said break in passenger accommodation then.

It’s not passenger accommodation though, it’s crew seating as per the sign

 

[357]

Piffle. What about the person up front?

As previously stated I'm talking about the luggage area.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

Because they wouldn't get a break! Every entitled Herbert among "the great unwashed" would be demanding their attention every two minutes.

Nonsense. I must have travelled on trains where there are also uniformed staff travelling a million times and never once felt it necessary to interrupt them.

 

[ainsworth74]

Surely there are a few intermingled issues here?

1) Do staff have the right to a break uninterrupted by the public? Yes, of course they do. Anyone suggesting otherwise is being silly.

2) Should they therefore have access to a space which is separate from the public? Yes, that's kinda vital to the implementation of point 1 above. The fact that other organisations don't provide this to their staff is an indictment of those organisations rather than proof that anyone else (including myself, I get my breaks away from the public!) should change their approach.

3) Does GCs solution satisfy 1 and 2? Sorta, personally if it was me I'd not be pleased if that was my break space but it probably works in the general sense.

4) Is GCs solution sensible however? In my opinion not really. For a start I'm not convinced it's really suitable anyway for the staff who need to use it but more to the point it clearly isn't a great look for GC (not the staff, they get what they're given it's nowt to do with them) to be reserving 8 table seats when many of their trains are busy and either only one or two (or even none) staff are using it. If GC and their staff have agreed breaks can be taken on the train then GC should implement a slightly more robust solution than just a piece of A4 paper with some sticky tape. Even that sort of curtain affair they use to separate business from economy on aircraft would do the trick in my opinion. But a proper partition would be far more preferable, it doesn't exactly need to be robust (read difficult and expensive).

Nonsense. I must have travelled on trains where there are also uniformed staff travelling a million times and never once felt it necessary to interrupt them.

Good for you, and neither have I! Indeed I recently needed to speak to a CrossCountry conductor prior to the departure of a train but seeing as he was obviously on a break (enjoying some fish and chips which is what gave the game away) in the 1st class compartment of the train I left him alone until he was finished. But I have zero doubt that many other people would not be so considerate as you or I.

 

[sprunt]

If this is standard (i.e. the case on all trains) perhaps they should have had designed and installed a proper partition so it was hidden from the passengers, rather than a notice done in M$ Word and a piece of sellotape which really belongs back in 2020 never to be seen again?

I'm guessing the presence of an emergency exit beyond the sellotape is the reason for not having anything more substantial there.

Because they wouldn't get a break! Every entitled Herbert among "the great unwashed" would be demanding their attention every two minutes.

If a paying customer did have the absolute unfettered nerve to want to ask a uniformed member of staff a question about the journey, that bit of sellotape's hardly going to put them off is it?