Grand Central's long waits at Wakefield Kirkgate

[TUC]

The 0752 Grand Central service from Bradford to London regularly has a wait of around 15 minutes at Wakefield Kirkgate. Presumably this is to fit with a path on the ECML and it is better to wait at Wakefield rather than take up a platform at Doncaster for 15 minutes. Howevet it does significantly add to the length of the journey and it does make me wonder why they do not retime the service to start from Bradford later. Is there a particular pathing issue between Bradford and Wakefield which would prevent that? Clearly there are other services which it would need to fit around, but I still find it surprising if a better timed path could not be found on that section of line.

 

[55z]

If you look on Real Time Trains you might spot pathing problems, in particular the bi-directional line between Mirfield East Jn and Thornhill LNW Jn (Ravensthorpe) the GC train has to fit in between westbound Trans Pennine & Northern trains. Also platform 3 at Wakefield Kirkgate is occupied by the Wakefield to Knottingley train for around 15 minutes every hour putting another constraint on the GC service. At Doncaster there is problems with platform capacity so a train standing for 10-15 minutes will block a platform which can be better used by other trains. The new platform 0 at Doncaster will not solve platform capacity much only make it easier with the Doncaster to Hull stoppers to use platform rather than block platform 1.

 

[Starmill]

Just one of the reasons why this service is so impractical!

 

[berneyarms]

You have to remember that as an open access operator, GC has to fit in around all of the other service patterns.

As 55z points out this isn't an easy task.

The various other flows that it encounters between Bradford and Wakefield mean that it has to depart Bradford at 07:52 and then wait at Wakefield until 08:55 to get its path on the ECML.

 

[paul1609]

This isnt a recent phenomina or limited to the open access era the cross country services to Brighton often had a wait of over 20 minutes on the spur from the Western to Southern Regions for a path down to Brighton. Towards the end of the services I had a service that was 28 minutes late leaving Reading and after running fast line on both the GW and Brighton main lines was waiting for a vacant platform at Gatwick Airport 10 early.

 

[TUC]

Just one of the reasons why this service is so impractical!

It's a very welcome service for passengers compared to having to change at Leeds early morning or after a long journey from London
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You have to remember that as an open access operator, GC has to fit in around all of the other service patterns.

.

What needs the paths are first sought, yes, but over time it surely makes sense to see if there are ways that the timetables of both franchised and open access operators can be changed to maximise capacity. For example, it is just as much a waste of resources for the above mentioned Northern service to be taking up platform capacity at Wakefield for 15 minutes (One of various examples of long layovers in Northern services. I know it isn't an exact science but there must be ways that different combinations of routes would increase service levels and avoid blocking platforms-something that it looks like Arriva's plans may go some way to addressIng )

 

[itsjustmyjob]

Just one of the reasons why this service is so impractical!

Impractical for who exactly? Certainly not for the people who don't like changing trains either for mobility reasons or because they see it as a bit of a nuisance navigating a big station like Leeds.

I know lots of very irregular users who have been enticed to travel to London by train for the first time in years from Halifax simply because it is direct and offers very reasonable fares, even at walk-up prices.

The end to end time is very comparable with VTEC and Northern via Leeds.

Long may they continue!

 

[Pinza-C55]

The 0752 Grand Central service from Bradford to London regularly has a wait of around 15 minutes at Wakefield Kirkgate. Presumably this is to fit with a path on the ECML and it is better to wait at Wakefield rather than take up a platform at Doncaster for 15 minutes. Howevet it does significantly add to the length of the journey and it does make me wonder why they do not retime the service to start from Bradford later. Is there a particular pathing issue between Bradford and Wakefield which would prevent that? Clearly there are other services which it would need to fit around, but I still find it surprising if a better timed path could not be found on that section of line.

If the train arrives at Kings Cross on time then the 15 minute wait at Kirkgate doesn't add to the journey time at all.

 

[TUC]

If the train arrives at Kings Cross on time then the 15 minute wait at Kirkgate doesn't add to the journey time at all.

Yes it does. It makes the timetabled length of the journey 15 minutes longer than it otherwise would need to be.

 

[A-driver]

Yes it does. It makes the timetabled length of the journey 15 minutes longer than it otherwise would need to be.

Think you are arguing a non issue here. 15mins is nothing in the grand scheme of things. The GC Yorkshire services are pretty well used when you see them entering and leaving kings X. If people were really that put off by a 15 min dwell to allow the train to fit in with other services then they wouldn't use it. But they do as its not an issue. Short of building a new line specifically for GC they will have to accept dwell times to allow pathing.

 

[northernchris]

For example, it is just as much a waste of resources for the above mentioned Northern service to be taking up platform capacity at Wakefield for 15 minutes (One of various examples of long layovers in Northern services. I know it isn't an exact science but there must be ways that different combinations of routes would increase service levels and avoid blocking platforms-something that it looks like Arriva's plans may go some way to addressIng )

I wouldn't call 15 minutes a long layover, if anything a lot of turnarounds are already tight where a delay on the incoming service affects the trains next working. An example being Bradford Forster Square, where some peak time services have just 3 minutes layover. Factor in the time it takes the crew to switch ends of the 333, plus the 30 seconds door closing procedure and even a 1 minute late arrival will see the outward service leaving late.

 

[class26]

Think you are arguing a non issue here. 15mins is nothing in the grand scheme of things. The GC Yorkshire services are pretty well used when you see them entering and leaving kings X. If people were really that put off by a 15 min dwell to allow the train to fit in with other services then they wouldn't use it. But they do as its not an issue. Short of building a new line specifically for GC they will have to accept dwell times to allow pathing.

Could be they are used by pax to Doncaster where the 15 mins isn`t an issue ?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It's a very welcome service for passengers compared to having to change at Leeds early morning or after a long journey from London
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What needs the paths are first sought, yes, but over time it surely makes sense to see if there are ways that the timetables of both franchised and open access operators can be changed to maximise capacity. For example, it is just as much a waste of resources for the above mentioned Northern service to be taking up platform capacity at Wakefield for 15 minutes (One of various examples of long layovers in Northern services. I know it isn't an exact science but there must be ways that different combinations of routes would increase service levels and avoid blocking platforms-something that it looks like Arriva's plans may go some way to addressIng )

The Wakefield to Knottingley services have to lay over in the turnaround time at Kirkgate in order to allow a clockface timetable on the line. On arrival at Knottingley the unit forms the next service back to Leeds, so there is some interworking. When the "new" Northern franchise starts these services will run through to Westgate so the turnarounds will be shorter unless an extra unit is used (which in turn would increase the turnaround time for each unit to almost an hour).

EDIT: Just remembered that I think the plan is for the ex-Knottingley services to run through to Leeds via Outwood from Westgate, so the turnaround time won't be an issue in that case.

 

[A-driver]

Could be they are used by pax to Doncaster where the 15 mins isn`t an issue ?

It's an open access operator. If it wasn't used well enough it would have stopped by now.

 

[Starmill]

It's an open access operator. If it wasn't used well enough it would have stopped by now.

Watch this space...

It's a very welcome service for passengers compared to having to change at Leeds early morning or after a long journey from London

Is it? Really? Even though all of the Grand Central trains between Bradford and Doncaster are overtaken, in both directions? That's one hour forty-three minutes to do a tour of West Yorkshire.

 

[TUC]

Watch this space...

Is it? Really? Even though all of the Grand Central trains between Bradford and Doncaster are overtaken, in both directions? That's one hour forty-three minutes to do a tour of West Yorkshire.

But it is time when passengers on business trips can get on and do some work, something that is very difficult to do in Northern's services without tables, and passengers generally can sit back and relax, something you can't do if you know you have to get off and change trains in Leeds. It also isn't just about Bradford passengers. For those from stations such as Halifax and Brighouse it builds up into an equivalent journey time to London to travelling via Northern and Virgin, something which makes the Wakefield delay all the more frustrating as eliminating this would turn it into the quickest option.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Think you last line hits the nail on the head. Offering a shorter travel time could potentially abstract revenue!

I may sound daft but there will be people within the companies or regulatory feanchising management who will seriously be thinking that!

 

[Tetchytyke]

Is it? Really? Even though all of the Grand Central trains between Bradford and Doncaster are overtaken, in both directions? That's one hour forty-three minutes to do a tour of West Yorkshire.

To Bradford, it is marginally quicker to travel via Leeds- it's about 3h via Leeds, compared to about 3h20 on GC. Although the Yorkshire tour takes its sweet time, some of this is offset by the fact that the GC is non-stop from Doncaster. For some the 20 minutes is a huge annoyance, for others its better to be sat down rather than having to lug everything through Leeds station.

To Halifax, though, it is marginally quicker on GC- about 3h10 compared to about 3h15 via Leeds, plus the advantage of it being a direct train.

Of course, if there wasn't the 15 minute wait at Kirkgate then GC would pretty much be bang on at Bradford, and quicker at Halifax.

Hopefully this will get better as there's fewer freight trains around Wakefield these days. The freight trains always seem to get priority over the GC, on more than one occasion some brainiac has chucked a freight which has a 20 minute driver change at Kirkgate out in front of the GC at Doncaster Decoy.

I'm not as cynical as gimme50aday, but I'm sure if GC got better paths in Yorkshire there'd be a few complaints from Souter

 

[berneyarms]

To be fair out of the 8 trains operated on the route, the 07:52 departure is the only one that suffers the 15 minute wait at Wakefield. The other southbound trains operate via Pontefract Monkhill which uses up that time.

 

[lejog]

However its not only the 17minute wait at Kirkgate that annoys, its the subsequent crawl to Doncaster. The train arrives at Kirkgate at 8.38, departs at 8.55 and proceeds sedately to Doncaster arriving at 9.30. Non-stop trains from Westgate to Doncaster take 16/17mins, not 35mins (or even 52mins if you include the wait).

There's 35mins of very noticeable padding in the timetable between Wakefield and Doncaster.

 

[wensley]

However its not only the 17minute wait at Kirkgate that annoys, its the subsequent crawl to Doncaster. The train arrives at Kirkgate at 8.38, departs at 8.55 and proceeds sedately to Doncaster arriving at 9.30. Non-stop trains from Westgate to Doncaster take 16/17mins, not 35mins (or even 52mins if you include the wait).

There's 35mins of very noticeable padding in the timetable between Wakefield and Doncaster.

Because it's patted behind a VT from Hare Park and then tucks behind a Northern stopper ex-Adwick. Running via P4 and the Flyover at Doncaster adds time as there are conflicting moves on the Main Lines when the train presents at Marshgate.

 

[Crossover]

The one an hour earlier from Bradford has a quite a bit of pathing allowance to Halifax (can arrive a few mins earlier than booked) and has about 10 mins at Brighouse too. In all cases I can well imagine it will be to fit around other services. The line between Ravensthrorpe and Mirfield (the junction anyway) is pretty busy and the effective single line bi-di bit towards Healey Mills will be almost certainly a hinderence too.

The crawl when going via Pontefract can feel rather slow (not sure if it is partly attributed to there being allowance and some drivers not really going for it or if they are doing linespeed but on a 125 capable unit, it feels less lively than the same speed on a Pacer giving that illusion)

 

[lejog]

The one an hour earlier from Bradford has a quite a bit of pathing allowance to Halifax (can arrive a few mins earlier than booked) and has about 10 mins at Brighouse too. In all cases I can well imagine it will be to fit around other services. The line between Ravensthrorpe and Mirfield (the junction anyway) is pretty busy and the effective single line bi-di bit towards Healey Mills will be almost certainly a hinderence too.

The crawl when going via Pontefract can feel rather slow (not sure if it is partly attributed to there being allowance and some drivers not really going for it or if they are doing linespeed but on a 125 capable unit, it feels less lively than the same speed on a Pacer giving that illusion)

Apparently there are signalling upgrades/headway improvements required between Bradford and Halifax if Grand Central are going to continue to use this stretch along with the planned 6tph Northern services in the new franchise.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'm pretty sure that the upgrade of the Askern line to allow the GC services won't have been gold-plated, so linespeeds through there won't break any records!

 

[Senex]

The line between Ravensthrorpe and Mirfield (the junction anyway) is pretty busy and the effective single line bi-di bit towards Healey Mills will be almost certainly a hinderence too.

When that section was reduced from four lines to three it was at a time of retrenchment when there were many fewer services running and no great expectations of huge traffic expansion. Will it be necessary to return to four tracks -- and if so, what does that do to the alignment to and from the LNW line at the junction?

 

[gimmea50anyday]

I'm not as cynical as gimme50aday, but I'm sure if GC got better paths in Yorkshire there'd be a few complaints from Souter

Me? Cynical? :eek: dunno where you get such an idea....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

When that section was reduced from four lines to three, Will it be necessary to return to four tracks?

Well, the obvious capacity loss which is now needed along with the rest of the alignment from Huddersfield thru standedge and to stalybridge. But the network as a whole is creaking at the seams!

 

[Andyh82]

The slow potter around West Yorks is one of the negatives of this service, you've been on board over an hour and aren't even at Doncaster yet. On the other hand, the return journeys are usually much quicker

Brighouse to London KX in the morning takes 2h51 to 2h58
London KX to Brighouse in an evening takes only 2h18

 

[Starmill]

But it is time when passengers on business trips can get on and do some work, something that is very difficult to do in Northern's services without tables, and passengers generally can sit back and relax, something you can't do if you know you have to get off and change trains in Leeds. It also isn't just about Bradford passengers. For those from stations such as Halifax and Brighouse it builds up into an equivalent journey time to London to travelling via Northern and Virgin, something which makes the Wakefield delay all the more frustrating as eliminating this would turn it into the quickest option.

And when Virgin are running quicker and more direct trains London <> Bradford, Dewsbury and Huddersfield? The latter two are going to have bigger markets than Pontefract or Brighouse and there will be no reason at all to use Grand Central, Halifax notwithstanding. This service can't survive in this form. But then, Grand Central aren't really trying. They've made no effort to sell tickets from London to places served by Northern and don't have any cheaper dedicated tickets north of Doncaster.

 

[wensley]

And when Virgin are running quicker and more direct trains London <> Bradford, Dewsbury and Huddersfield? The latter two are going to have bigger markets than Pontefract or Brighouse and there will be no reason at all to use Grand Central, Halifax notwithstanding. This service can't survive in this form. But then, Grand Central aren't really trying. They've made no effort to sell tickets from London to places served by Northern and don't have any cheaper dedicated tickets north of Doncaster.

Even though by all accounts the attempts of VT to make inroads into the Sunderland market is yet to bear fruit?!

 

[Tetchytyke]

Have Grand Central not tried, or not been allowed to, issue tickets with Northern connections? It's a genuine question.

Grand Central will continue as long as they are competitive on time and price with other operators. The Bradford trains out of Kings Cross on an evening are busy, usually full and standing to Doncaster on Fridays at least, as they are competitive on time and price. Loadings to Halifax are usually very healthy.

I use Grand Central Bradford/Halifax-London as they are a direct train and they are competitive on price. I'm sure most people are the same. I may be seeing Yorkshire at a snail's pace but I can spread out and get comfortable, something which I can't do if I have to change at Leeds.