Grand London Express

[MPW]

Fun crayon question: what would london's version of the grand paris express look like (ignoring diametrical routes given EL and TL)?

R25 is the only comparable circumferential idea I have seen for london. I'm pretty sure that was never studied by a serious industry body. The GPE is mainly new tunneled lines with a headline budget of EUR 36bn so Londons crayon version doesn't necessarily need to use existing rights of way. That said its just as fun to imagine what could be scrapped together if at all operationally possible on a materially lower budget.

 

[JonathanH]

London has an awkward boundary and its outer centres of population aren't places where there is a lot of need to travel between them. Moreover, outside London, it is difficult to concentrate demand on one route.

Superloop is predicated on the existing road network, and links which have built up over time.

The GPE is mainly new tunneled lines with a headline budget of EUR 36bn so Londons crayon version doesn't necessarily need to use existing rights of way.

Something like this would be incredibly unpopular with certain factions, and very unlikely to be built in any UK location. As noted in other threads, it would seem likely that future UK policy on infrastructure is almost guaranteed to be small scale incremental building, such as the DLR extension to Thamesmead, rather than grandiose projects.

That said its just as fun to imagine what could be scrapped together if at all operationally possible on a materially lower budget.

Yes, indeed it would. I think it would also be interesting to consider which stretches would be prioritiorised over others.

Indeed which bit of Superloop would make the most difference as a railway solution?

 

[Krokodil]

There's not a lot of room left under Zone 1. The only new underground railway you are likely to see in the centre is Crossrail 2. You might see some extensions into the outer zones (Bakerloo Line Extension) but otherwise that's it.

Any capital that TfL does have is likely to be used on active travel infrastructure. It's a lot cheaper to build and maintain. At the same time I'd like to see some improvements to the public transport provision around outer London, pretty much all that exists at the moment serves traffic to/from the centre, services between outer boroughs are poor. "Superloop" does appear to be trying to improve on this, but unfortunately it's only buses.

 

[Mikey C]

Fun crayon question: what would london's version of the grand paris express look like (ignoring diametrical routes given EL and TL)?

R25 is the only comparable circumferential idea I have seen for london. I'm pretty sure that was never studied by a serious industry body. The GPE is mainly new tunneled lines with a headline budget of EUR 36bn so Londons crayon version doesn't necessarily need to use existing rights of way. That said its just as fun to imagine what could be scrapped together if at all operationally possible on a materially lower budget.

Given unlimited funds ( ), a clean sheet orbital railway for outer London would be massively useful. And not the bodged together R25 proposal which was too near the existing Overground routes in north London, but one where you decide which places AND lines you want connected up, and connect them.

I'd pick a route via Zone 4ish, connecting with Ealing Broadway, then looping around North London outside the North Circular via Wembley, Colindale, Southgate etc to Barking Riverside, then Thamesmead, Sidcup, Bromley, East Croydon, Morden, Kingston and Richmond, amongst the stops.

If the orbital train was to connect with EVERY line it crossed, then that's a LOT of connecting stations, and rather a slow journey, so that would be a difficult choice.

 

[MontyP]

Indeed which bit of Superloop would make the most difference as a railway solution?

The old X26 (now SL7) Croydon-Sutton-Kingston-Heathrow would be a very useful rail route. Totally impractical to engineer it of course.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Given unlimited funds ( ), a clean sheet orbital railway for outer London would be massively useful. And not the bodged together R25 proposal which was too near the existing Overground routes in north London, but one where you decide which places AND lines you want connected up, and connect them.

I'd pick a route via Zone 4ish, connecting with Ealing Broadway, then looping around North London outside the North Circular via Wembley, Colindale, Southgate etc to Barking Riverside, then Thamesmead, Sidcup, Bromley, East Croydon, Morden, Kingston and Richmond, amongst the stops.

If the orbital train was to connect with EVERY line it crossed, then that's a LOT of connecting stations, and rather a slow journey, so that would be a difficult choice.

In a world of complete fantasy, you'd have a 4 track alignment with relief line platforms at every station, and fast line platforms at every "quadrant" of London - for example, Ealing Broadway for West, Richmond for South West, East Croydon for South etc...

Platform screen doors at every stop, and a line speed of 100mph.
Ealing Broadway to Richmond would be about 5-7 mins, give or take, on the fasts.
Headway of 2 mins on the reliefs, and every 5 mins for the fasts.

 

[Basil Jet]

Given unlimited funds ( ), a clean sheet orbital railway for outer London would be massively useful. And not the bodged together R25 proposal which was too near the existing Overground routes in north London, but one where you decide which places AND lines you want connected up, and connect them.

I'd pick a route via Zone 4ish, connecting with Ealing Broadway, then looping around North London outside the North Circular via Wembley, Colindale, Southgate etc

I think you've just picked a load of zone 4 stations without any thought to the significance of the places or likelihood of them generating orbital demand other than as interchanges. IMO the places in North London that could generate orbital demand are Spurs, Wood Green, Alexandra Palace, Brent Cross and Wembley Park. A line from Tottenham Hale - Bruce Grove - Wood Green - Alexandra Palace (NR) - Alexandra Palace (the palace itself) - Muswell Hill - East Finchley - Brent Cross (stretching from LUL to Shopping Centre) - Brent Cross West - Wembley Park would do a lot better than a zone 4 line.

 

[Mikey C]

I think you've just picked a load of zone 4 stations without any thought to the significance of the places or likelihood of them generating orbital demand other than as interchanges. IMO the places in North London that could generate orbital demand are Spurs, Wood Green, Alexandra Palace, Brent Cross and Wembley Park. A line from Tottenham Hale - Bruce Grove - Wood Green - Alexandra Palace (NR) - Alexandra Palace (the palace itself) - Muswell Hill - East Finchley - Brent Cross (stretching from LUL to Shopping Centre) - Brent Cross West - Wembley Park would do a lot better than a zone 4 line.

To me the point of an orbital railway is to connect lines as much as places, in the same way the M25 connects with other motorways and main roads. Also if it's too far in, then it becomes time consuming for people on the edge of London to travel in to reach it, whereas a lot of the places you mention are already quite near the GOBLIN or North London Line.

Much of North London is a continuous sprawl of suburbs without the dominant travel hubs like Croydon south of the river, which makes such a line trickier, as there are so many separate tube and NR lines to connect to.

 

[30907]

Being South London by origin, I will confine my comments to there.

Croydon-Wimbledon-Kingston-Richmond are decently connected by Tramlink and SWR. Running the Kingston Roundabout every 15min might improve it, but you wouldn't do Croydon-Richmond that way anyway.

Croydon-Bromley-Lewisham is the other link worth considering, presumably as an extension of Tramlink from Beckenham Jn - but again, Croydon-Lewisham you can do OK via Elmers End. I'm less sure about carrying on towards Thamesmead.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Croydon-Bromley-Lewisham is the other link worth considering, presumably as an extension of Tramlink from Beckenham Jn - but again, Croydon-Lewisham you can do OK via Elmers End. I'm less sure about carrying on towards Thamesmead.

Hmm, I'd think extending from Elmers End down Eden Park Avenue, Hayes Ln and Shortlands Road would be easier, since the roads in that area are quieter, plus there's more capacity on that branch of Tramlink beyond Arena.
You could link into Bromley North for connections towards Lewisham - especially if the Bakerloo gets extended down that route in future.

Agreed on Thamesmead though - the best solution would be to extend the Overground under the river from Barking Riverside, then provide 2 underground stations in Thamesmead (first station the Central Way/Crossway roundabout, and second station by Southmere Park).
Continue south to Abbey Wood for interchange with Elizabeth Line and Southeastern.

 

[MPW]

I was reading the croydon area remodelling diagrams and had a thought for orbital route.

The fast lines from bromley South could go in a tunnel (portal near shortlands, or existing station noting the adjacent car park). Through to Norwood junction and linking to Victoria fast lines near selhurst triangle.

All bromley to Victoria Fasts to be redirected to the new connection. That would mean one change from bromley to sussex (via expanded Norwood junction), all of SW London and surrey (via clappy j) and connecting back to existing capacity into Victoria. stopping services to victoria could be made more frequent.

Yes it's a serious intervention but only a few new underground platforms and unlike "R25" it would be a genuinely fast connection without going into central london. Could replace many car journeys on M25.

 

[Snow1964]

The old X26 (now SL7) Croydon-Sutton-Kingston-Heathrow would be a very useful rail route. Totally impractical to engineer it of course.

Possibly not as bad as you imagine, just really need a tunnelled spur from north of South Merton to between Raynes Park and New Malden (a section that had lot of the preparation for 6 tracking until WW1 stopped work). There is actually a wide wayleave due to water mains from Hampton area that runs alongside the tracks.

It would also be possible to tunnel from Feltham area to link up to the terminal 4 loop (where I believe step plate junctions were built for a Heathrow Southern approach). Although it never happened the District Railway intended to build extension south from Hounslow via Whitton to join Kingston line near Strawberry Hill. Hounslow bus garage is now on site of closed line

 

[30907]

Possibly not as bad as you imagine, just really need a tunnelled spur from north of South Merton to between Raynes Park and New Malden (a section that had lot of the preparation for 6 tracking until WW1 stopped work). There is actually a wide wayleave due to water mains from Hampton area that runs alongside the tracks.

A rail route Croydon-Kingston would more naturally run via Wimbledon though, rather than going close to it; the S7/X26/726/725 bus route goes via Sutton, Cheam and Worcester Park, which is totally different.

 

[JonathanH]

A rail route Croydon-Kingston would more naturally run via Wimbledon though, rather than going close to it; the S7/X26/726/725 bus route goes via Sutton, Cheam and Worcester Park, which is totally different.

Yes, but it might be noted that Croydon to Wimbledon already only takes 20 minutes by train if the connections work well, and isn't much slower by tram, so going via Wimbledon isn't really adding much.

The existing rail route from East Croydon to Kingston already runs via Wimbledon. Passengers change trains at Clapham Junction.

 

[MPW]

I was reading the croydon area remodelling diagrams and had a thought for orbital route.

The fast lines from bromley South could go in a tunnel (portal near shortlands, or existing station noting the adjacent car park). Through to Norwood junction and linking to Victoria fast lines near selhurst triangle.

All bromley to Victoria Fasts to be redirected to the new connection. That would mean one change from bromley to sussex (via expanded Norwood junction), all of SW London and surrey (via clappy j) and connecting back to existing capacity into Victoria. stopping services to victoria could be made more frequent.

Yes it's a serious intervention but only a few new underground platforms and unlike "R25" it would be a genuinely fast connection without going into central london. Could replace many car journeys on M25.

Thoughts? Basically an alternative to the idea of tunneling from near battersea Park to South of herne hill, which would be similar length but not provide any new connections. The tunnel could be used for direct Sussex to Kent services, and the Croydon-MK service could use the tunnel to create further direct orbital connections. These are outer orbital journeys which are currently much faster by car.

Self-snip. Getting ahead of myself.
I also feel at Eastern end a connection to ebbsfleet would be a big boost as that then gives connections deeper into kent and towards stratford. Not suggesting it should actually go in the HS1 tunnel. Maybe instead being fed from gravesend or dartford directions. There's currently no direct connection from North Kent to bromley or Croydon. There's a former freight alignment from near Longfield into gravesend that passes the southern end of ebbsfleet Station near A2.