Grand Union approved for Cardiff to London open access by ORR from December 2024

[Watershed]

That is incorrect, operators are now cooperating again on route learning, the lifting of different covid restrictions in Wales just meant that timescales were in the end too short for this summer (the summer timetable starts this coming weekend).

I’m not sure why operators would try and find an ‘excuse’ to make route learning harder. Covid was not an excuse, it was a global pandemic.

Some operators made heavier weather of Covid than others. The restrictions in place in Wales were more onerous than those in place in England, but at no point did they forbid in-cab training, any more than they forbade ambulance crews, airline pilots etc. from being in a shared environment. TfW restricted themselves to a degree no other TOC did.

 

[Clarence Yard]

It was evident that the DfT had leaned on the ORR to invent a new test, namely that the absolute amount of revenue abstraction cannot be too large. The large amount of overall government support to the industry during Covid was cited, but frankly, this rejection always seemed highly dubious to me. How can it be OK to allow existing OAOs to continue to abstract revenue, yet refuse to allow a new operator to start running in much the same way? An irrational decision if ever I've seen one.

It isn’t a new test. In fact it’s a very old one and awareness of which stopped, back in the day, other proposals by GB Railways from coming forward. The only one then that clearly didn’t absolutely abstract was Hull Trains.

Grand Union did not realise that this was part of the ORR’s consideration but other players in the OA world certainly did. Which is why I thought their previous application was doomed.

Existing OAO operators (or at least the ones I know very well) don’t “continue to abstract revenue” either. Hull Trains we’re accused of that in the GNER court case and that charge had to be withdrawn in the face of overwhelming written evidence to the contrary.

 

[Watershed]

It isn’t a new test. In fact it’s a very old one and awareness of which stopped, back in the day, other proposals by GB Railways from coming forward. The only one then that clearly didn’t absolutely abstract was Hull Trains.

But it's one which has hardly been fastidiously applied in other cases. Otherwise how did the likes of Lumo, Grand Central and GNWR applications get through (despite clearly abstracting revenue to the tune of tens of millions each year)? The mention of Covid also seems a total red herring.

Grand Union did not realise that this was part of the ORR’s consideration but other players in the OA world certainly did. Which is why I thought their previous application was doomed.

Under the ORR's current stance I think they will need to mount a legal challenge to succeed.

Existing OAO operators (or at least the ones I know very well) don’t “continue to abstract revenue” either. Hull Trains we’re accused of that in the GNER court case and that charge had to be withdrawn in the face of overwhelming written evidence to the contrary.

But again, whilst they do bring revenue into the industry, they still abstract some. Otherwise they would not be part of the NRCoT and ORCATS.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

TfW restricted themselves to a degree no other TOC did.

And this is why the situation has arisen with the GWR Pembroke trains, TfW falling under different authorities and having tighter restrictions meant a lack of access to the branch for GWR to refresh. Hopefully this problem will not arise again.

 

[Clarence Yard]

But it's one which has hardly been fastidiously applied in other cases. Otherwise how did the likes of Lumo, Grand Central and GNWR applications get through (despite clearly abstracting revenue to the tune of tens of millions each year)? The mention of Covid also seems a total red herring.

But again, whilst they do bring revenue into the industry, they still abstract some. Otherwise they would not be part of the NRCoT and ORCATS.

It’s the percentage “take” of the key flows that is important here. The difference is that Lumo, GC and GNWR didn’t apply to run that many trains so their % was much lower. In the case of Lumo, that was a very deliberate action as too many trains would have put their % take of key ECML flows over what the ORR would allow.

Abstraction has nothing to do with whether they are part of ORCATS. OA can positively put growth into the Inter-Available ORCATS pot so that they net contribute rather than net abstract, sometimes immediately, sometimes over a number of years. People often mistake future growth as abstraction because of the IA ticket type - it isn’t. No one has the right to future growth of IA unless your track access agreement has investment clauses in it that depend on you getting that growth. Otherwise it’s like the supermarkets - you compete for the future market. Any operator (OA or franchise/concession) can be challenged if their loadings don’t match up with the IA revenue. If they are out of kilter the % will be manually altered.

When HT got it’s rights it had to undertake to carry IA product so that passenger journey opportunities were not suppressed. Nowadays IA is a very small part of key flows revenue and increasingly all types of operators are now doing joint deals to sow up the through journey opportunities and move those punters away from IA and into dedicated. I suspect ORCATS is not long for this world in it’s present form and I don’t think that will bother OA operators at all.

 

[realemil]

Their website ( http://www.granduniontrains.co.uk/ - provided this is it ), has information about this proposed route.

Grand Union is proposing to launch a new service between Carmarthen and London. It will start with a service in both directions from Cardiff to London in May 2023, then extend to Llanelli and Carmarthen from May 2025. A new station is proposed to be built at Felindre close to Junction 46 of the M4 motorway. Services will call here and bypass Swansea thereby reducing journey times from further west to Cardiff and London by around 20 minutes. This new service will bring more journey opportunities, wider economic benefits and significant employment to the people of South Wales.

The link to find out more about this does not work.

However, it also has the following below:

Grand Union has also submitted an application to the ORR to operate a new service between Stirling and London via the West Coast Main Line from December 2023.

Unfortunately, the link to find out more sends us here: http://www.granduniontrains.co.uk/stirlingtolondon/

The page shows information being displayed as services starting in Dec 2022...

Does anyone have any information on a new application for London to Stirling?

 

[Pete_uk]

Direct trains from some of the smaller towns in South Wales would be good.

 

[The Planner]

Their website ( http://www.granduniontrains.co.uk/ - provided this is it ), has information about this proposed route.


The link to find out more about this does not work.

However, it also has the following below:


Unfortunately, the link to find out more sends us here: http://www.granduniontrains.co.uk/stirlingtolondon/

The page shows information being displayed as services starting in Dec 2022...

Does anyone have any information on a new application for London to Stirling?

They won't be starting in Dec 22 put it that way....

 

[dk1]

While we have a nationwide shortage of train crew and rolling stock, this kind of abstractive proposal should be kicked into touch.

Certainly no shortage of traincrew at the vast majority of TOCs.

 

[Western 52]

If GU are planning on eventually running 9 car 800s through to Carmarthen, platform lengths are an issue at Llanelli and Carmarthen. Currently, only the 5 car sets work west of Swansea, and when a 9 car set has to work a Carmarthen service from Paddington it will be terminated at Swansea. I know 800s have SDO but at Llanelli there's the issue of level crossings both ends of the short platforms. At Carmarthen I'm not sure a 9 car fits either platform clearing the starting signals?

 

[Horizon22]

Who says there is a nationwide shortage ?
Th TOC I work for has drivers sitting at home as "Covid spares" and guards who similarly book on from home spare and a few of them don't actually come to work even if needed.

I'm not sure where you work, but pretty much no TOC has been doing this for over a year now. Guards might be easier, but everywhere is so short of (productive) drivers, I hardly believe this.

 

[43066]

Who says there is a nationwide shortage ?
Th TOC I work for has drivers sitting at home as "Covid spares" and guards who similarly book on from home spare and a few of them don't actually come to work even if needed.

I'm not sure where you work, but pretty much no TOC has been doing this for over a year now. Guards might be easier, but everywhere is so short of drivers, I hardly believe this.

Something definitely not adding up there!

 

[skyhigh]

Th TOC I work for has drivers sitting at home as "Covid spares" and guards who similarly book on from home spare and a few of them don't actually come to work even if needed.

I honestly can't believe that.

 

[tiptoptaff]

If GU are planning on eventually running 9 car 800s through to Carmarthen, platform lengths are an issue at Llanelli and Carmarthen. Currently, only the 5 car sets work west of Swansea, and when a 9 car set has to work a Carmarthen service from Paddington it will be terminated at Swansea. I know 800s have SDO but at Llanelli there's the issue of level crossings both ends of the short platforms. At Carmarthen I'm not sure a 9 car fits either platform clearing the starting signals?

No, a 9car does not fit at Carmarthen. A full 2+8HST was extremely tight and the 9car 800s are longer.
It would have to be an 8car max, unless some serious remodeling work is done

 

[Western 52]

No, a 9car does not fit at Carmarthen. A full 2+8HST was extremely tight and the 9car 800s are longer.
It would have to be an 8car max, unless some serious remodeling work is done

That's what I thought.

 

[popeter45]

No, a 9car does not fit at Carmarthen. A full 2+8HST was extremely tight and the 9car 800s are longer.
It would have to be an 8car max, unless some serious remodeling work is done

it shouldnt be that hard?, Carmarthen has alot of free and straight room at both ends of the platforms so extension should be easy enough?

 

[tiptoptaff]

That's what I thought.

Just confirming your statement as you seemed unsure

I can't comment on the situation at Llanelli though.

it shouldnt be that hard?, Carmarthen has alot of free and straight room at both ends of the platforms so extension should be easy enough?

The one end has the junction and sidings and the other dives under the bridge along the old formation.

I don't think extending is as easy as it first appears.

Edit

Having had a second look perhaps there's more space there than I thought.
I can't imagine the overlaps would prohibit moving signals enough.

I have had a second

 

[Bald Rick]

How can it be OK to allow existing OAOs to continue to abstract revenue, yet refuse to allow a new operator to start running in much the same way?

because the existing OAOs have a contract, and the new operator doesn’t.

Certainly no shortage of traincrew at the vast majority of TOCs.

on the contrary, it’s certainly easier to list the TOCs that *don’t* have a shortage of train crew.

 

[Flinn Reed]

The withdrawal of the Paddington- Bristol superfasts is being used as a reason why the previous revenue abstraction no longer applies

Are the Bristol superfast services not going to be reinstated eventually?

 

[Snow1964]

Are the Bristol superfast services not going to be reinstated eventually?

Logically if they are not reinstated by the end of the consultation period for the open access operator application, the GWR can’t say they are using them.

A suggestion might (not 100% definite) restart the service sometime in next few years is hardly going to look good as a reason for objection.

 

[Wyrleybart]

I honestly can't believe that.

Why would I lie ?

I'm not sure where you work, but pretty much no TOC has been doing this for over a year now. Guards might be easier, but everywhere is so short of (productive) drivers, I hardly believe this.

I can assure you I work for one. We still do not have our pre covid timetable back and I am beginnng to think we never will. But we are not an L&SE commuter operation, instead we are known as a leisure carrier. The protocol is that A/R crew ring in 40-60 mins before they are due to book on to see if they are needed. Guards are distinguished between those who are spare, and those that are to book on remotely - so don't have to attend. These are Covid resttictions

 

[Horizon22]

Why would I lie ?


I can assure you I work for one. We still do not have our pre covid timetable back and I am beginnng to think we never will. But we are not an L&SE commuter operation, instead we are known as a leisure carrier. The protocol is that A/R crew ring in 40-60 mins before they are due to book on to see if they are needed. Guards are distinguished between those who are spare, and those that are to book on remotely - so don't have to attend. These are Covid resttictions

I am shocked. There are no Covid restrictions any more. Do you have some sort of excess train crew then compared to every other TOC? It is perhaps XC who by running double sets have really cut down on diagrams.

Nobody is talking about "pre-Covid timetables" but most of the time its a battle to resource staff for the regular timetable running now in advance (probably OK on the day), especially Saturdays.

 

[43066]

Why would I lie ?

No idea, but I share the doubts expressed above.

Why would I lie ?


I can assure you I work for one. We still do not have our pre covid timetable back and I am beginnng to think we never will. But we are not an L&SE commuter operation, instead we are known as a leisure carrier. The protocol is that A/R crew ring in 40-60 mins before they are due to book on to see if they are needed. Guards are distinguished between those who are spare, and those that are to book on remotely - so don't have to attend. These are Covid resttictions

Pretty much every TOC abandoned restrictions some time ago. Most TOCs are also struggling for crew so seems more than a little odd that you’re apparently working for one that is awash with crew and still has Covid restrictions in place...

 

[skyhigh]

Why would I lie ?

No idea, but it does seem very odd. You suggested that several train crew had not come in after being home spare and then required. If someone had tried that at my TOC they would have been in deep trouble.

Not to mention the fact our TOC has told us several times that none of the English TOCs are continuing with spare at home. I'd be very interested to know where this is still happening. Looking at your profile location - it's not the Stourbridge Town line is it?

 

[Wyrleybart]

No idea, but it does seem very odd. You suggested that several train crew had not come in after being home spare and then required. If someone had tried that at my TOC they would have been in deep trouble.

Not to mention the fact our TOC has told us several times that none of the English TOCs are continuing with spare at home. I'd be very interested to know where this is still happening. Looking at your profile location - it's not the Stourbridge Town line is it?

Haha Gosh no. Aberdeen - Penzance and Manchester - Bomo is the giveaway !!
it is the case that if guards are designated remote spare they don't have to attend even if you need them. Some would, but i have had people decline after ringing to ask them.

 

[Horizon22]

Haha Gosh no. Aberdeen - Penzance and Manchester - Bomo is the giveaway !!
it is the case that if guards are designated remote spare they don't have to attend even if you need them. Some would, but i have had people decline after ringing to ask them.

No idea, but it does seem very odd. You suggested that several train crew had not come in after being home spare and then required. If someone had tried that at my TOC they would have been in deep trouble.

Not to mention the fact our TOC has told us several times that none of the English TOCs are continuing with spare at home. I'd be very interested to know where this is still happening. Looking at your profile location - it's not the Stourbridge Town line is it?

XC is in fairness the only one with an excess because the timetable has been slashed so savagely. Anyway we're getting somewhat off-topic here.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Found this very interesting:

Uniquely among intercity operators, Grand Union regards a seat as part of the price paid for the ticket, so if we are unable to provide a seat then standing passengers will receive a 50% refund or only pay 50% of the fare for that journey.

 

[8stewartt]

Found this very interesting:

Can you choose to stand up and get 50% off the fare at the start?

 

[ainsworth74]

Found this very interesting:

"Uniquely"? I imagine that will take LNER by surprise!

What is the Seat Guarantee scheme?​

If that happens, and our staff can't track you down an alternative seat, our Seat Guarantee scheme lets you claim a refund. Here’s how it works:

• If you had a one way ticket, we’ll compensate you 100% of the value
• If you had a return ticket, we’ll compensate you 50% of the value
• If you had a First Class ticket and the only seat available is in Standard, we’ll compensate you the difference between the fare you paid and the Standard equivalent

Our Seat Guarantee scheme

If a seat is reserved then it is not available. Our staff will help to find you alternative seating. If they cannot then we will compensate you.

www.lner.co.uk

 

[Watershed]

"Uniquely"? I imagine that will take LNER by surprise!

Our Seat Guarantee scheme

If a seat is reserved then it is not available. Our staff will help to find you alternative seating. If they cannot then we will compensate you.

www.lner.co.uk

I wonder whether they will say "ah but we are the only operator to guarantee a seat on every journey" - whereas LNER's guarantee only applies to people holding reservations.

Of course that would imply their services will actually be (enforced) compulsory reservations, which would be a great shame.