Gravesend Tilbury Ferry

[phil1960]

Announcement from a few days ago saying Jetstream are ceasing to operate this link from 31 March 2024

News :: Jetstream Tours

www.jetstreamtours.com

Besides ferry only passengers, there are through rail ferry tickets available (eg Southend to Dartford). Wonder if c2c and Southeastern will continue to accept valid season tickets via the longer route through London?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Will Kent County Council tender for a new operator? Any likely interested parties?

 

[Wolfie]

Will Kent County Council tender for a new operator? Any likely interested parties?

The ferry was jointly funded by Kent County Council and Thurrock Council. The latter is effectively bankrupt and wished to cease or at least heavily reduce its contribution. Having read local papers in Grays the suggestion is that Jetstream rejected a revised contract proposal. It is reported that the councils will seek another operator but at the very least there will be a gap in service. Gravesham Borough Council, which covers Gravesend, is pushing for the service to be maintained.

Tilbury to Gravesend ferry service to be axed, says council boss

More than 100,000 passenger journeys are made every year using the ferry service.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[duncombec]

This will be discussed on Thursday at a meeting of the Kent County Council Environment & Transport Cabinet Committee. The papers are too long to quote in full, but item 12 (and associated appendix) are the ones to look for: https://democracy.kent.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=831&MId=9269&Ver=4

In general, the consultation was very much pro-retention (unsurprisingly), but it is also noted the primary usage appears to be from Thurrock, with a lower number of responses (it seems Kent provided the consultation for both sides). A number of school children use the ferry to access Gravesend schools (which are a short walk from the terminal), and some further still - one mentions Rochester, a whole other bus ride or two away! There seems to be a willingness to pay an increased fare if it would help (some 73% of users pay a fare), and many comments speak of the unviability of the alternative options - three buses, or a lengthy cycle and reliance on the Dartford Tunnel shuttle service. Even driving is looked on negatively, not least because the 35-ish% of users who could travel by car would add to the already extensive traffic instead.

JetStream have very much walked away, despite the apparent offer of a 1 year contract extension - having stopped funding in October 2023, Thurrock have secured funding for one year from April 2024. The papers also note they have only ever received two bids, one from Jetstream, but the other operator was unable to step up at such short notice. I am wondering why Jetstream declined the extension with a month to go over alleged "uncertainty for the future", rather than an accepting the year's extension and allowing that uncertainty to reduce in a more managed fashion.

The paper just asks the committee to note it, and unless I've missed anything on skim read, doesn't really suggest whether they will attempt a new tender or whether it will be allowed to quietly cease. I suspect they may still attempt procurement, much as they would a bus service, because it looks better to the public to have tendered and declare the bids too expensive than not to have tendered at all... but we'll find out on Thursday which way the wind is blowing!

 

[Wolfie]

This will be discussed on Thursday at a meeting of the Kent County Council Environment & Transport Cabinet Committee. The papers are too long to quote in full, but item 12 (and associated appendix) are the ones to look for: https://democracy.kent.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=831&MId=9269&Ver=4

In general, the consultation was very much pro-retention (unsurprisingly), but it is also noted the primary usage appears to be from Thurrock, with a lower number of responses (it seems Kent provided the consultation for both sides). A number of school children use the ferry to access Gravesend schools (which are a short walk from the terminal), and some further still - one mentions Rochester, a whole other bus ride or two away! There seems to be a willingness to pay an increased fare if it would help (some 73% of users pay a fare), and many comments speak of the unviability of the alternative options - three buses, or a lengthy cycle and reliance on the Dartford Tunnel shuttle service. Even driving is looked on negatively, not least because the 35-ish% of users who could travel by car would add to the already extensive traffic instead.

JetStream have very much walked away, despite the apparent offer of a 1 year contract extension - having stopped funding in October 2023, Thurrock have secured funding for one year from April 2024. The papers also note they have only ever received two bids, one from Jetstream, but the other operator was unable to step up at such short notice. I am wondering why Jetstream declined the extension with a month to go over alleged "uncertainty for the future", rather than an accepting the year's extension and allowing that uncertainty to reduce in a more managed fashion.

The paper just asks the committee to note it, and unless I've missed anything on skim read, doesn't really suggest whether they will attempt a new tender or whether it will be allowed to quietly cease. I suspect they may still attempt procurement, much as they would a bus service, because it looks better to the public to have tendered and declare the bids too expensive than not to have tendered at all... but we'll find out on Thursday which way the wind is blowing!

Having been through (thankfully l had no reason to stop!) Tilbury l can see why parents might wish to send their children to schools in Gravesend.

 

[duncombec]

Having listened to the item at 1.5x speed, the general approach is that there is now no doubt there will be a break in service, and that it seems likely future funding must come from other than county level, but that Kent is attempting to find a 'coalition of the willing' to fund a later service, with meetings continuing this week and next week.

A recommendation from a committee member to ease negotiations was discussed and then withdrawn based on feedback from the Cabinet member, which sought to at least continue with the arranged meetings. The general feeling is Thurrock gets more benefit from it, but Kent is (now) paying the bill, and indeed has led all of the negotiations. The miraculous funding from Thurrock appears to have been an annoyance rather than a benefit, as it paused the discussions Kent were having with the operators over a longer-term item.

Also noted that until Covid, the service was approaching (but had not yet reached) commercial viability (and thus arguably might again).

It may be worth listening to the similar discussion at Thurrock last week, because various suggestions of "bad faith" floating around - criticized as unhelpful by the Kent cabinet member - which appear to have come from somewhere... hard to say where without listening, but very noticeable that only Kent and Jetstream were mentioned as having worked in good faith!

 

[telstarbox]

I've used it a few times with my bike. My impression is while it serves a few different niche markets well, they're all quite price sensitive so if the fare was say £10 it would price most users off. It has two crew members and runs roughly half hourly.

There was previously talk of Thames Clippers serving Gravesend which has some regeneration going on - could that interwork with a Tilbury shuttle?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I've used it a few times with my bike. My impression is while it serves a few different niche markets well, they're all quite price sensitive so if the fare was say £10 it would price most users off. It has two crew members and runs roughly half hourly.

There was previously talk of Thames Clippers serving Gravesend which has some regeneration going on - could that interwork with a Tilbury shuttle?

What about extending the Barking Riverside Clipper services to Tilbury and Gravesend? Could that be a possible option?

 

[duncombec]

I've used it a few times with my bike. My impression is while it serves a few different niche markets well, they're all quite price sensitive so if the fare was say £10 it would price most users off. It has two crew members and runs roughly half hourly.

There was previously talk of Thames Clippers serving Gravesend which has some regeneration going on - could that interwork with a Tilbury shuttle?

What about extending the Barking Riverside Clipper services to Tilbury and Gravesend? Could that be a possible option?

It appears that Thames Clippers are the current managers of Gravesend Pier, and they do run some special trips from Gravesend and Tilbury into Central London. That makes me wonder if the "second bidder" Kent claim (ref. my post 4) was Thames Clippers.

In theory, it seems very possible. The reality, though, is whether it would fit to have even an hourly service all the way into London (currently the ferry is half-hourly), and whether there is any risk of delay on the water upstream (sorry, we can't provide the Gravesend/Tilbury service owing to a problem at Canary Wharf?). Of course, running it as a longer service, even, say, Gravesend/Tilbury to North Greenwich might provide a degree of extra viability... or might not!

I suspect we'll have to wait and see whether anything comes from Kent's attempts to create a "coalition of the willing".

Incidentally, I couldn't find any meeting at Thurrock that would fit reference to the comment made by the Kent councillor, unless it was merely the Cabinet member's opening comments not being born out in private conversation.

 

[Bishopstone]

A big ‘ouch!’ for any parent who arranged the schooling of their child on the basis of the existence of this financially precarious ferry service: feels like a high risk strategy.

How reliable was the service lately, in respect of cancellations due to weather and mechanical issues etc? I’d go so far as to say this wasn’t fair on the children, obliged to cross the river twice a day under threat of penalties for lateness.

 

[Mikey C]

The thought of taking that ferry to school every day makes me shudder! The Thames is wide at that point, and I imagine will be pretty rough in bad weather.

 

[W-on-Sea]

Maybe, but the thought of both living and going to school in Tilbury....would make me shudder more....

 

[Tezza1978]

Maybe, but the thought of both living and going to school in Tilbury....would make me shudder more....

Christ its not that bad. Have been to significantly worse places in Blighty. The town has some innate challenges and is very poor compared to other parts of Thurrock/Essex....but I was born and bred there, lived there till I was 18 and I turned out OK. My parents still live there.

 

[Mikey C]

Christ its not that bad. Have been to significantly worse places in Blighty. The town has some innate challenges and is very poor compared to other parts of Thurrock/Essex....but I was born and bred there, lived there till I was 18 and I turned out OK. My parents still live there.

Besides, Gravesend is hardly wonderful anyway

 

[leslie]

Announcement from a few days ago saying Jetstream are ceasing to operate this link from 31 March 2024

News :: Jetstream Tours

www.jetstreamtours.com

Besides ferry only passengers, there are through rail ferry tickets available (eg Southend to Dartford). Wonder if c2c and Southeastern will continue to accept valid season tickets via the longer route through London?

Im afraid C2C ended through ticketing in Jan 2023 claiming that complaints had been received from customers who had arrived at the ferry believing that their train ticket included the cost of the boat crossing (it doesn't, as the ticket quite clearly specifies, how anyone could imagine it does is beyond me, obviously for the previous 30 years no one ever got confused ). In response I asked how they intended to resolve the problem. They said they would liase with and try and negotiate a private settlement agreement with the ferry company. However they then proceeded to do nothing for the next 8 months, I know this because they kept telling various organisations, including the RDG, that they were about to contact Jetstream and get things resolved. However everytime I contacted Jetstreams MD he would inform me that C2C had made no effort to contact him.

 

[Jan Mayen]

On BR Fares, it shows the routing (Southend Central - Rochester) as Tilbury/Gravesend. To me, that would suggest the fare is included. (However, I couldn't get the C2C website to sell me the ticket).

 

[leslie]

On BR Fares, it shows the routing (Southend Central - Rochester) as Tilbury/Gravesend. To me, that would suggest the fare is included. (However, I couldn't get the C2C website to sell me the ticket).

C2C controlled the flow for the routes via the ferry and these has been deleted across all TOC's ticketing systems. You can of course still buy tickets from South Essex to North Kent but these tickets will be via London and will include the Underground, hence considerably more expensive.

 

[jonb]

I decided to take a roundabout trip to Abbey Wood where I’m working today, via Romford, Upminster, Tilbury and Gravesend taking in the ferry. All the connections worked well, when arriving at Tilbury Town you need to cross the footbridge and the bus stops just outside the South station entrance. The 07:08 which I caught was slightly late, so a swift walk down the jetty to the boat which luckily held on a few minutes for late arrivals, so just be mindful if travelling in this direction. I purchased a through ticket to Tilbury Riverside, which as others have mentioned is valid on the 99 bus.

A shame to see this cease operation, but hopefully it’ll be back soon!

 

[Typhoon]

Having been through (thankfully l had no reason to stop!) Tilbury l can see why parents might wish to send their children to schools in Gravesend.

Sorry, late to this thread. Kent (so Gravesend) has selective schools so attracts pupils from out of the county Between 400 and 500 pupils from outside Kent are accepted into Kent Grammars each year (mainly London boroughs, East Sussex, Surrey, Thurrock and Essex). I am not alone in believing that the schools want the pupils most likely to score highly in GCSEs and A Levels no matter where they come from. Speaking to a crew member he reckoned that there were a fair few school children.

I decided to take a roundabout trip to Abbey Wood where I’m working today, via Romford, Upminster, Tilbury and Gravesend taking in the ferry. All the connections worked well, when arriving at Tilbury Town you need to cross the footbridge and the bus stops just outside the South station entrance. The 07:08 which I caught was slightly late, so a swift walk down the jetty to the boat which luckily held on a few minutes for late arrivals, so just be mindful if travelling in this direction. I purchased a through ticket to Tilbury Riverside, which as others have mentioned is valid on the 99 bus.

That happens in the opposite direction too. Usually someone lets the ferry crew or the bus driver know if there are stragglers (if they know of them). By jetty do you mean the car ramp? If you take the the pedestrian walkway (which is adorned with pictures of those who arrived on the Windrush), that takes longer and you would be struggling unless fit. If you catch the 99 from the ferry stop, you get a tour of Tilbury's estates!

I reckon Jetstream are fed up with the uncertainty, also one of the boats that they used to use was moored up in the Medway last time I went there. A crew member didn't think it would be repaired.

The thought of taking that ferry to school every day makes me shudder! The Thames is wide at that point, and I imagine will be pretty rough in bad weather.

It can be quite calm but if a cruise ship or freighter are travelling along the river, the swell is noticeable! The ferry has to cross it!

 

[Basil Jet]

Thanks to OP for letting us know. I rode it today for my first and last time. The crew member said the ferry had been running for 1000 years. Northward the boat was full of fat bald men returning from the pubs of Gravesend, all of them thanking and hugging the crew member. I imagine the final match at Millwall will have a similar feeling.

 

[jonb]

Thats’s correct at the Tilbury end, the car ramp leading from the bus stop down to where the boat moors up. Even early on Friday morning, it slightly every walking through the pier building at Gravesend, it’s a shame it has gone unloved really!

 

[Somewhere]

JetStream have very much walked away, despite the apparent offer of a 1 year contract extension - having stopped funding in October 2023, Thurrock have secured funding for one year from April 2024. The papers also note they have only ever received two bids, one from Jetstream, but the other operator was unable to step up at such short notice. I am wondering why Jetstream declined the extension with a month to go over alleged "uncertainty for the future", rather than an accepting the year's extension and allowing that uncertainty to reduce in a more managed fashion.

A one year contract extension isn't much use once staff have been given notice and have made plans to move on with their lives. They're not going to change plans to live with uncertainty

 

[duncombec]

A one year contract extension isn't much use once staff have been given notice and have made plans to move on with their lives. They're not going to change plans to live with uncertainty

A reasonable point, but a) you wouldn't give staff notice before you had decided to turn down the extension, and b) are you aware that the staff have been given notice? Jetstream operate in the leisure market, and it seems more likely the staff will be retained for non-contract operations.

There is no evidence that staffing specifically had anything to do with the decision.

 

[leslie]

A reasonable point, but a) you wouldn't give staff notice before you had decided to turn down the extension, and b) are you aware that the staff have been given notice? Jetstream operate in the leisure market, and it seems more likely the staff will be retained for non-contract operations.

There is no evidence that staffing specifically had anything to do with the decision.

As I undrstand it staff on the ferry have been offered work on the tours that Jetstream operate. But I suspect not the hours that they were getting on the ferry, other than that it is redundancy. I understand it was about a month ago that the decision to fold was made by Jetstream which is when staff were informed. I watched the Kent County Council meeting of early March all the way through and its fairly obvious that KCC think that Thurrock have been extremely underhand. KCC appear to have been negotiating in 2023 a 5 year contract which all sides seemed to be ok with. Kent then agreed a 6 months extension from October 2023 to March 2024 to finalise things (I think that October 2022 to October 2023 had also been a short term extension to allow a long term contract to be worked out). It was at this point that Thurrock unilaterally pulled the plug on their half of the subsidy.

Of course as soon as the issue was raised in parliament Thurrock then miraculously found some more money but only for one year. The leader of Thurrock council had the cheek to say that Thurrock was 'disappointed' in Jetstream for pulling out. This from a council that bankrupted itself, running up a half a billion pound deficit, by getting involved with someone currently being charged with fraud and who the government inspectors accused of 'an abdication 0f responsibility, that over a period of years had permitted good practice norms in local goverment to 'fall into disuse'. No business can run on continuing short term contracts especialy in a situation where there is nothing to say that Thurrock would be able to continue paying after March 2025. That is assuming they wouldnt renege again on any commitment they made for for 24-25. Thames Clippers, who in recent times have been the other company interested in running the ferry (they actually own the Town Pier where the ferry runs from in Gravesend) do not at the present time seem to be showing any interest. Not surprisingly I would have said. Meanwhile the two purpose built ferry boats Thames Swift and Thames Kestrel will be put up for sale very soon if they haven't been already .

 

[Typhoon]

A reasonable point, but a) you wouldn't give staff notice before you had decided to turn down the extension, and b) are you aware that the staff have been given notice? Jetstream operate in the leisure market, and it seems more likely the staff will be retained for non-contract operations.

There is no evidence that staffing specifically had anything to do with the decision.

Clear evidence to that on their website https://www.jetstreamtours.com/

Jetstream Tours is proud to annouce the largest passenger vessel to cruise the Thames Estuary. Our latest vessel is ideal for all weathers and is capable of carrying up to 250 people on our reknown excursions.

Excursions will be returning from May 2024 and will operate various tours from Queenborough, Southend, Gravesend, Chatham and Rochester throughout 2024.

To invest in a large vessel would appear to show that that is where future commitment lies. The Jacob Marley had clearly been used for leisure trade - there was a chalked up list of drinks prices the first time I went on it.

Regarding staffing, in the autumn there were a number of different staff on it, at least two left for other work (they discussed it with regulars).

@leslie - thanks for a clear and thorough account. As you recount, Thurrock are in deep water of their own making, Who knows what the future holds with the election beckoning, I've got the X80 timetable written down!

 

[leslie]

Clear evidence to that on their website https://www.jetstreamtours.com/

To invest in a large vessel would appear to show that that is where future commitment lies. The Jacob Marley had clearly been used for leisure trade - there was a chalked up list of drinks prices the first time I went on it.

Regarding staffing, in the autumn there were a number of different staff on it, at least two left for other work (they discussed it with regulars).

@leslie - thanks for a clear and thorough account. As you recount, Thurrock are in deep water of their own making, Who knows what the future holds with the election beckoning, I've got the X80 timetable written down!

After a long period Thames Kestrel, which was heavily damaged in July 2023, is so I am led to believe virtually repaired. Sadly I suspect no one is likely to want her or the Swift for the purpose they were designed for.

 

[stut]

In the realms of utter fantasy here, but was an HS1 station at Rainham ever considered? (It would certainly help in this instance, but the downsides are obvious...)

 

[paul1609]

In the realms of utter fantasy here, but was an HS1 station at Rainham ever considered? (It would certainly help in this instance, but the downsides are obvious...)

You cant just build stations alongside HS1 because of the different loading gauge. If you built a UK gauge station that would fit a 395 a Eurostar would demolish it. i suspect the cost of loops for the station alone would discount it.

 

[BayPaul]

Thames Clippers, who in recent times have been the other company interested in running the ferry (they actually own the Town Pier where the ferry runs from in Gravesend) do not at the present time seem to be showing any interest. Not surprisingly I would have said. Meanwhile the two purpose built ferry boats Thames Swift and Thames Kestrel will be put up for sale very soon if they haven't been already .

Thames Swift and Kestrel aren't purpose built for this route. They were built for White Horse Ferries for a long route up and down the Thames, similar to the current Thames Clippers main routes. They were technically an utter disaster, very poorly designed. They really aren't very suitable for this cross river route, I don't know if the engines have been replaced, if not they can't be enjoying short periods of low speed, rather than the high speed operation they were built for. They have had some very serious accidents over the years due to design and construction issues, and all the vessels in the series have spent far longer laid up than in service.

 

[leslie]

Thames Swift and Kestrel aren't purpose built for this route. They were built for White Horse Ferries for a long route up and down the Thames, similar to the current Thames Clippers main routes. They were technically an utter disaster, very poorly designed. They really aren't very suitable for this cross river route, I don't know if the engines have been replaced, if not they can't be enjoying short periods of low speed, rather than the high speed operation they were built for. They have had some very serious accidents over the years due to design and construction issues, and all the vessels in the series have spent far longer laid up than in service.

My information is that the Thames Swift originally named the Martin Chuzzlewit was built by Lay Construction at their Gravesend yard for its Subsidiary White Horse Ferries in late 1995. It then served, after fitting out, on the route between Gravesend and Tilbury from April 1996 (replacing the Great Expectations a larger vessel that White Horse moved to Hythe) until White Horse went into liquidation in May 2001. It actually carried on serving on the route for a short time further whilst the administrators continued the service. The great thing about Martin Chuzzlewit/Thames Swift was that unlike other larger vessels she could go inside the large pontoon on the Tilbury side of the river, where a 'V' type mounting was built for her. This meant that when large cruise ships visited the cruise liner terminal it did not preclude the ferry service from continuing. She was to my knowledge not built for running up and down the the Thames long route and if you can produce any evidence of her doing so I would be pleased to see it. Much later after working for Thames Luxury Charters for a few years as Thames Swift, she returned to her original route and place of construction with Jetstream in 2017.

Martin Chuzzlewit was the first of a class of six craft of identical design built by Lay's at Gravesend between 1995 and 2001. Most of them saw very little service and were nearly all very quickly laid up by White Horse. For a number of years they could be seen stacked up on the old railway pier at West Street Gravesend. Eventually two of them found employment in Africa, the last built (Abel Magwitch) found work for Thames Clippers on the Hilton Hotel Canary Wharf run in the early 2000's. The Uriah Heep, built in 1999 and laid up for many years, was eventually moved to Faversham Creek before in 2014 going to Southampton to take over the running of the Hythe ferry. It was from here that Jetstream bought her in I believe 2018 or 2019 and set about refurbishing her.

These craft are by no means wonderful and have had issues with steering in particular, especially the Uriah Heep/Thames Kestrel, both as the Hythe ferry and at Gravesend. That said the Chuzzlewit/Swift has done a pretty good job on the Thames and as I mentioned above was ideal due its ability to go behind the pontoon. As you correctly say Kestrel could not have been purpose built for this route, she has a much bigger engine. However Swift as the first in the class with a much smaller engine was built by a company that owned the ferry in a yard 50 yards from the ferry and immediately entered service on the ferry. Therefore I cant help but feel that it would have been designed with the ferry in mind. Obviously Lay Construction/White Horse later expanded the class to do tasks the craft didnt seem very well designed for. That is of course when they could find an operator who was willing to purchase one of the craft in the first place.