Great British Railways announcement causes Trainline shares to tumble

[Grumpy Git]

Shares in online rail and bus ticket firm Trainline have plunged after news that a new state-owned body is to sell rail tickets.
Under a shake-up of the rail sector, Great British Railways will sell tickets via a website and app, and end the system where passengers buy from multiple companies.
It will also set timetables and prices and manage rail infrastructure.
Trainline shares dropped 34% before regaining some ground in early trading.

• Better rail services promised in huge shake-up

In the present system passengers buy rail tickets from firms online and at stations.
However, under government plans there will be a new Great British Railways ticket website and app, with "significant rollout" of more pay-as-you-go, contactless and digital ticketing on smartphones.
There will also be more straightforward compensation for delayed or cancelled services from operators in England.
From next month flexible season tickets will be available for some people who commute two or three times a week.
They are due to go on sale on 21 June for use seven days later, and will allow passengers to travel on any eight days in a 28-day period.

source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57184564

 

[island]

Good. terrible company.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Was mentioned on the morning news. Trainline shares currently down by over 20% on the day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I doubt a state-owned firm will develop a website and app. They're clearly in with a chance if they bid for it. Also I can't see the API going away, so Trainline, Trainsplit etc will I'm sure continue.

The lost business wil be selling the same thing with a bit of branding to multiple TOCs.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Investors don't seem to have any idea how fickle this company is. I did some research when these were floated onto the market as I've never really understood ticketing. Investors, especially amateur ones, mistakenly think that these set the fares, or get fares given to them nobody else can access. I fortunately worked out that they just have a plug in to another national ticketing system provided by somebody else, and nothing more than a fancy bit of advertising, a website and an app!

Even now, investors seem to think that somehow the DfT is going to make Trainline their "big supplier" for one big ticketing system and the share price is going to bounce back! I think they're living in fantasy world personally, but I am interested in other views on this forum, as anyone who seems to know even a jot about rail ticketing seems to think Trainline are vultures.

You would imagine their business model would also be highly vulnerable from tap as you go with a pay as you go debit/credit card type scheme anyway, where you don't even need to buy a ticket!

 

[Mollman]

I doubt a state-owned firm will develop a website and app. They're clearly in with a chance if they bid for it. Also I can't see the API going away, so Trainline, Trainsplit etc will I'm sure continue.

The lost business wil be selling the same thing with a bit of branding to multiple TOCs.

I was under the impression that GBR would just use an upgraded National Rail website but I agree that Trainline will most likely still be able to sell tickets.

 

[LowLevel]

Investors don't seem to have any idea how fickle this company is. I did some research when these were floated onto the market as I've never really understood ticketing. Investors, especially amateur ones, mistakenly think that these set the fares, or get fares given to them nobody else can access. I fortunately worked out that they just have a plug in to another national ticketing system provided by somebody else, and nothing more than a fancy bit of advertising, a website and an app!

Even now, investors seem to think that somehow the DfT is going to make Trainline their "big supplier" for one big ticketing system and the share price is going to bounce back! I think they're living in fantasy world personally, but I am interested in other views on this forum, as anyone who seems to know even a jot about rail ticketing seems to think Trainline are vultures.

You would imagine their business model would also be highly vulnerable from tap as you go with a pay as you go debit/credit card type scheme anyway, where you don't even need to buy a ticket!

They run a lot of websites and back ends for train operator "own brand" ticket sales actually, as well as corporate bookings etc. Far from just a simple website with a clever brand.

They might be vultures in terms of their personal sales of train tickets to individuals but that doesn't mean they're irrelevant - their business is far more than that.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Has the National Rail site EVER sold tickets before?

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Was mentioned on the morning news. Trainline shares currently down by over 20% on the day.

Presumably their deceptive advertising would have to end. That gives the impression their website offers cut price tickets whereas what it offers are Advance tickets limited to one train, which are available elsewhere anyway at a commission free price.

Unless made illegal, it should remain possible to offer split tickets if A to C is priced greater than the sum of A to B and B to C.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

They run a lot of websites and back ends for train operator "own brand" ticket sales actually, as well as corporate bookings etc. Far from just a simple website with a clever brand.

They might be vultures in terms of their personal sales of train tickets to individuals but that doesn't mean they're irrelevant - their business is far more than that.

My understanding, however, is that the systems which matter, i.e. the ones which you use as a TOC to actually set the fares, where the fares are fed from, manage availability of reservations and those fares, the issuing process and how it's all collated and centralised from an accounting perspective are nothing to do with Trainline, which means they are in essence, just a fancy front end to whoever supplies the other systems!

Although I suspect that is a gross simplification. I listened to an international banker skewer them repeatedly on this during the floatation presentations.

Surely, the government ALREADY has this with whatever is used for LNER? If LNER use Trainline, fair enough, I'd say they are in a strong position, but I can't see any indication that it is Trainline, but maybe it's a clever white label.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I should think it's the individual TOC web sites which are under threat, as if they exist at all they will all need to offer the same GBR fares.
Looks like long-distance TOC and 3rd party sites will still have a future, certainly for aggregating multi-mode and premium journeys.
Trainline is heavily involved in TOC back office systems, and is also used by Rail Europe (SNCF) for Europe-wide travel.
I wouldn't worry too much about their branded UK business.

The White Paper talks about using international expertise for its web retail site.
Might they adopt the Trenitalia system, which seems to have a foothold here?
At the very least, I hope they drop the current NRE system.

Presumably we can look forward to greater standardisation of ATMs and the offerings through them.
It's hard to know which standard/manufacturer will prevail.
Similarly the whole ticketing regime and on/off-train checks.

There's also scope for TOC area mergers/adjustment, hinted at in the White Paper.
If they go with NR Regions, you can guess some of them.

 

[Djgr]

It is difficult to see why there needs to be more than one website selling railway tickets.

This is particularly the case if a key societal aim to achieve simplification out of the existing chaos.

 

[greatkingrat]

If there is an increase in the use of PAYG / Carnets etc that will also reduce the number of potential customers for sites like Trainline.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was under the impression that GBR would just use an upgraded National Rail website but I agree that Trainline will most likely still be able to sell tickets.

The NRE site was originally Trainline based (or at least looked like it), but I don't know how far it's strayed from the codebase and if they are still paying licensing fees for it.

Surely, the government ALREADY has this with whatever is used for LNER? If LNER use Trainline, fair enough, I'd say they are in a strong position, but I can't see any indication that it is Trainline, but maybe it's a clever white label.

It's hard to tell what it is as it's quite thickly skinned, but there are only about 3-4 suppliers of websites and apps to the TOCs, and at least some of them do use a skinned Trainline.

 

[Grumpy Git]

The multiple different ticketing websites all of which offer the same "goods" at differing prices (all with varying degrees of opacity) are one of the biggest problems IMHO.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The multiple different ticketing websites all of which offer the same "goods" at differing prices (all with varying degrees of opacity) are one of the biggest problems IMHO.

Getting rid of the TOC ones is probably going to do enough to remove most of the confusion. Most people buy airline tickets from the airline these days, but they haven't banned travel agents and the likes of Opodo and Expedia.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Getting rid of the TOC ones is probably going to do enough to remove most of the confusion.

Will that definitely happen?

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Will that definitely happen?

My reading of this is "yes".

One brand / unified systems / consistent experience for the customer etc.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Will that definitely happen?

Isn't it an obvious source of duplicate cost that can be eliminated?
At the least I'd expect the core functions to be identical, maybe with some service-related TOC bits on top (more of that for the long-distance TOCs).
The hint is that commuter/local TOCs won't have Advance offerings, which simplifies things a lot.

 

[Haywain]

Surely, the government ALREADY has this with whatever is used for LNER? If LNER use Trainline, fair enough, I'd say they are in a strong position, but I can't see any indication that it is Trainline, but maybe it's a clever white label.

LNER do not use Trainline, and the website is not a white label from anyone else.

As for the idea of a GBR website, this could be a good idea but it's not clear what is expected to happen to 3rd party websites, of which Trainline is only one. It would be interesting to know what @alistairlees thinks about this.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

LNER do not use Trainline, and the website is not a white label from anyone else.

As for the idea of a GBR website, this could be a good idea but it's not clear what is expected to happen to 3rd party websites, of which Trainline is only one. It would be interesting to know what @alistairlees thinks about this.

I suspect then, that the government will just use what they already have in place, if it works! Depends on whether LNER are paying for it, or whether they've build it themselves and own it, and is essentially a government asset.

Again, I know very little about the ins and outs of rail ticketing, but it seems foolish to allow third party access to ticketing sales here, surely all it is doing is taking revenue out via commissions? We used to have a Trainline business booking service at my old firm, and from what I can gather, we wouldn't have cared one bit whether it was provided by Trainline or directly from National Rail as long as the reports and fees where comparable!

 

[OldNick]

I'm not sure multiple 3rd party online ticket retailers/agents would cost the government anything, but in my ticket office days it was a cause for customer complaint.

Customer A: Buying tickets online via the Trainline costs me a booking fee, and your Advance travel ticket office is hardly ever open, so what choice do I have?

Me: If you buy tickets online through our website, there is no booking fee.

Customer B: I bought this ticket on your website and there was a problem.

Me: Unfortunately you have to talk to Trainline because we can't help with tickets bought through our website as we don't run it, even though it has our logo on it and you firmly believe the contract is with us.

All paraphrased of course, but hardly customer focused. I asked management at an event if we could bring the ticket sales element on our website inhouse and was told no, it wouldn't be cost effective. They already had the systems in place, why develop and maintain one of our own?

 

[pdeaves]

Has the National Rail site EVER sold tickets before?

No, to remain totally impartial to its members.

 

[gray1404]

I would hope it will still be possible to purchase tickets via the TOC based sites. Depending on the ticket required influences which site and booking engine I use.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would hope it will still be possible to purchase tickets via the TOC based sites. Depending on the ticket required influences which site and booking engine I use.

This, like fares simplification, is one where the needs/desires of a small number of experts (as represented here) conflict with the needs/desires of the general public (avoiding confusion). So I hope it is not.

I would however say an API should stay, so if anyone wants to set up "ExpertBookingLine" or whatever, with a complex but highly flexible UI to allow enthusiasts to basically have the same thing as a booking office does, then they can. People have done it for air travel - there's a tool (I forget what it's called) that is commonly touted on the Flyertalk site.

 

[WelshBluebird]

It is difficult to see why there needs to be more than one website selling railway tickets.

Different people want different features / complexity.

E.g. I can't see an official "GBR" website selling split tickets can you? So there will be a market for a site that does.
Maybe different sites could have different loyalty schemes too.
Or there's things like being able to really in fine detail change specifics about your journey (e.g. changes to wait times, where you'd like to change services etc) that most people just won't care about so can be removed from a simplified offering.

In terms of the "official GBR" website, there is no reason that one option cant fulfill the majority of what the public wants.
But there absolutely should be the option for third party offerings to pop up offering other things. Basically what Bletchleyite has said above.

 

[35B]

My understanding, however, is that the systems which matter, i.e. the ones which you use as a TOC to actually set the fares, where the fares are fed from, manage availability of reservations and those fares, the issuing process and how it's all collated and centralised from an accounting perspective are nothing to do with Trainline, which means they are in essence, just a fancy front end to whoever supplies the other systems!

Although I suspect that is a gross simplification. I listened to an international banker skewer them repeatedly on this during the floatation presentations.

Surely, the government ALREADY has this with whatever is used for LNER? If LNER use Trainline, fair enough, I'd say they are in a strong position, but I can't see any indication that it is Trainline, but maybe it's a clever white label.

They have, over the last 25 odd years, made a significant agency business by developing that retailing capability - you underestimate the demands of developing, running and maintaining that at your peril. Whatever I think of their marketing claims, I have great respect for what they have done.

As for which TOCs use which white labels, I would never want any one provider to have a monopoly in the market. For the same reason as the international banker you witnessed, it is very possible for someone else to come up with a better option at which point any incumbent is vulnerable despite their established market share. Provide them, or anyone else, with a monopoly and we can expect standards to fall.

 

[Trackman]

Seatfrog floated or something today, Kept receiving emails and texts in the last week to invest! oh dear.

 

[HST274]

Presumably their deceptive advertising would have to end. That gives the impression their website offers cut price tickets whereas what it offers are Advance tickets limited to one train, which are available elsewhere anyway at a commission free price.

Unless made illegal, it should remain possible to offer split tickets if A to C is priced greater than the sum of A to B and B to C.

I hope it is not illegal. Even if it is, I'm sure someone could come up with every journey that is cheaper with separate tickets, but it would be a LOT of work (maybe even impossible)

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Seatfrog floated or something today, Kept receiving emails and texts in the last week to invest! oh dear.

Believe they (Seatfrog) are wanting to raise funds by crowdfunding / crowdcube (or some such).