Great British Railways: Branding options?

[Meerkat]

Then the railway will remain fragmented and we basically end up having no benefits from the whole thing. The benefit is vertical and horizontal integration - to coin a brand - one railway . Without that we might as well just stick a load more TOCs out to tender and leave it the way it was.

I would prefer that!
However you could still have the co-ordinating mind - it’s just in DfT and not the politically independent GBR that some dreamers are expecting/hoping for.
The DfT have effectively been running most of the railway for years anyway (that’s why it’s failing I mutter to myself…..)

 

[Bletchleyite]

The DfT have effectively been running most of the railway for years anyway (that’s why it’s failing I mutter to myself…..)

QuANGOs are not automatically a bad thing. British Rail was a QuANGO and was very good at what it did on its incredibly tight budget.

There are QuANGOs that are a waste of money, but a single organisation running the railway is not an example of such. It would be much more efficient than Network Rail plus 10 or so TOCs all pulling in slightly different directions.

 

[Meerkat]

QuANGOs are not automatically a bad thing. British Rail was a QuANGO and was very good at what it did on its incredibly tight budget.

There are QuANGOs that are a waste of money, but a single organisation running the railway is not an example of such. It would be much more efficient than Network Rail plus 10 or so TOCs all pulling in slightly different directions.

How is BR/GBR different to NHS England? DfT rail department could run all the central stuff with NR and TOCs as delivery units. Political control of the strategy.
I am not convinced big is efficient, and certainly not that it is the most effective way….but we will have to agree to disagree on that to avoid derailing this.

 

[ollyexe2808]

As a bit of an aside, I note that the GBRTT website (https://gbrtt.co.uk/) now has a banner on it saying it is no longer being updated and is signposting users to Network Rail and the DfT websites to see more information. I assume this means that there is more central control/movement on the horizon? Given the branding announcement etc - curious to see how Network Rail changes in the coming months.

 

[Helvellyn]

As a bit of an aside, I note that the GBRTT website (https://gbrtt.co.uk/) now has a banner on it saying it is no longer being updated and is signposting users to Network Rail and the DfT websites to see more information. I assume this means that there is more central control/movement on the horizon? Given the branding announcement etc - curious to see how Network Rail changes in the coming months.

I thought it was announced earlier this year that GBRTT was being wound up, which Lord Hendy confirmed at a recent Transport Select Committe hearing? Something about GBRTT being a creation of the last government and that this government wanted the constituent parts of GBR to implement the transition - Network Rail and DfTO - plus involvement from DfT.

 

[ollyexe2808]

I thought it was announced earlier this year that GBRTT was being wound up, which Lord Hendy confirmed at a recent Transport Select Committe hearing? Something about GBRTT being a creation of the last government and that this government wanted the constituent parts of GBR to implement the transition - Network Rail and DfTO - plus involvement from DfT.

You're probably right - I may have missed this when the news initially came out about it. It makes sense to a certain extent - ultimately it was quite a superficial exercise anyway. Hopefully DfTO/NW will have more success in a smoother implementation...

 

[Bletchleyite]

How is BR/GBR different to NHS England?

NHS England doesn't operate anything directly. GBR will.

 

[Bald Rick]

As a bit of an aside, I note that the GBRTT website (https://gbrtt.co.uk/) now has a banner on it saying it is no longer being updated and is signposting users to Network Rail and the DfT websites to see more information. I assume this means that there is more central control/movement on the horizon? Given the branding announcement etc - curious to see how Network Rail changes in the coming months.

The “TT” in GBRTT is (was) “Transition Team”.

That has been subsumed into NR.

However GBR is still coming, and “SGBR” (S being shadow) is what is coming first.

 

[Meerkat]

NHS England doesn't operate anything directly. GBR will.

They both (will) operate units that operate things. GBR will be HQ (the vaunted ‘single directing mind’) and could be in DfT if ministers want more control.

 

[Wivenswold]

Watching Ipswich v Arsenal on the TV and noticed that the Greater Anglia advert has the BR arrows symbol on it. Maybe I've not been paying enough attention but all the GA adverts I've seen have the hare as the symbol.

Perhaps GBR Greater Anglia will be a thing. Maybe this is going to be a low-key launch with Franchise brands to be kept for a while.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Watching Ipswich v Arsenal on the TV and noticed that the Greater Anglia advert has the BR arrows symbol on it. Maybe I've not been paying enough attention but all the GA adverts I've seen have the hare as the symbol.

Perhaps GBR Greater Anglia will be a thing. Maybe this is going to be a low-key launch with Franchise brands to be kept for a while.

I think that’d be disappointing. With all this talk of fixing the railways, there’s going to be little impression on the public that anything will actually change if everything looks exactly the same as its always been.

 

[Zomboid]

I doubt things like GBR GA is the long term plan, but it's a probable first step, though I wouldn't be surprised if there were a handful of things fully branded in the new fashion on launch day, as when NSE and various privatised franchises launched.

I expect the arrows of indecision will be central to the brand though, it's managed to survive the privatisation era and still retained its meaning.

 

[Wivenswold]

The DfT/GBR will face complaints either way.

1. A fast rebrand with new livery "won't improve punctuality or bring fares down" and will be criticised as a waste of money.
2. A slow rebrand/re-livery will look a bit of a mess with units running around in different colours, doesn't give a sense of quality. My local station has only recently lost the last of its NSE signage.
3. Just adding the arrows will be seen as "nothing's changed".

Such is the world through the narrow lenses of public opinion as shaped by whatever angle the press need to make a story out of it. Personally and from a political strategy point of view, I think just adding the arrows for now and then get the symplified ticketing sorted, generate some positive vibes with some rail industry wins then start slapping a new coat of paint/wraps on everything. Option 3 now, then option 1 once everything is "nationalised".

Maybe brands that have a poor reputation will be replaced first. Greater Anglia has a pretty good reputation these days so a less radical approach might be best for now.

 

[vuzzeho]

The DfT/GBR will face complaints either way.

1. A fast rebrand with new livery "won't improve punctuality or bring fares down" and will be criticised as a waste of money.
2. A slow rebrand/re-livery will look a bit of a mess with units running around in different colours, doesn't give a sense of quality. My local station has only recently lost the last of its NSE signage.
3. Just adding the arrows will be seen as "nothing's changed".

Such is the world through the narrow lenses of public opinion as shaped by whatever angle the press need to make a story out of it. Personally and from a political strategy point of view, I think just adding the arrows for now and then get the symplified ticketing sorted, generate some positive vibes with some rail industry wins then start slapping a new coat of paint/wraps on everything. Option 3 now, then option 1 once everything is "nationalised".

Maybe brands that have a poor reputation will be replaced first. Greater Anglia has a pretty good reputation these days so a less radical approach might be best for now.

You're exactly right. I think we'll get Option 2 though - gradual repainting until GBR takes effect legally and can make improvements, then 1. I feel like once the branding is revealed and reliveries start, other operators will be told to stop repainting. I'm surprised SE were even allowed to start with the 376s. Older trains (Networkers, IC225s, 15xs etc) will probably only receive a vinyl.

 

[365 Networker]

Some interesting recent trademarks with the The Secretary of State for Transport:-
GWR

https://trademarks.ipo.gov.uk/ipo-tmcase/page/Results/1/UK00004154470

Provincial Sprinter logo

https://trademarks.ipo.gov.uk/ipo-tmcase/page/Results/1/UK00004154474

90s Gatwick Express logo

https://trademarks.ipo.gov.uk/ipo-tmcase/page/Results/1/UK00004154484

Golden Arrow

https://trademarks.ipo.gov.uk/ipo-tmcase/page/Results/1/UK00004154485

Trademark of "INTERCITY"

https://trademarks.ipo.gov.uk/ipo-tmcase/page/Results/1/UK00004155103

Various other names trademarked -

https://trademarks.ipo.gov.uk/ipo-tmowner/page/search?id=2057491&domain=1&page=1

GWR is certainly interesting - suggests that the name will continue under GBR.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That looks like just moving them in from other owners within the railway.

 

[365 Networker]

That looks like just moving them in from other owners within the railway.

Could be, although I did notice that the DfT already held slightly different versions of some of these logos previously:-

Sprinter

https://trademarks.ipo.gov.uk/ipo-tmcase/page/Results/1/UK00001275685

Gatwick Express

https://trademarks.ipo.gov.uk/ipo-tmcase/page/Results/1/UK00001556127

 

[Zomboid]

I would imagine the DfT want to own all the rail related trademarks they can, to prevent anyone else coming along and (legally) using them.

 

[365 Networker]

Could also be to do with the Railway 200 celebrations - special liveries etc.

 

[vuzzeho]

That looks like just moving them in from other owners within the railway.

True. Also possibly Railway 200. However, InterCity and the GatEx flags are very interesting - I think most people assumed InterCity would live but this potentially gives a little bit more credence to the theory. The GatEx flags are interesting but make sense. Don't know what they want with 'Pacer' though. Maybe GWR is the next operator to be nationalised after GA in 2026.

 

[MarkyT]

I guess the DfT owning active brands means the logos won't have to to be removed from the rolling stock the night when those franchise contracts finally end and (G)BR formally takes over.

Overall I'm in favour of retaining regional/divisional branding for logical service groupings likely to be under the same management. How 'interegional' operations like XC & TPE are to be managed will be interesting. Even if operated jointly with crew changes at regional boundaries, they could still have a unique branding for the particular service groups; a modern 'joint stock' type operation.

 

[Wivenswold]

I suspect the DfT will want to bury the TPE brand as it's pretty toxic with friends in the North.
Return to the simple "Cross-Country" (no "x" please) and make it a sub-Inter City brand, possibly for launch when the Leeds-Manchester upgrade is done.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I suspect the DfT will want to bury the TPE brand as it's pretty toxic with friends in the North.
Return to the simple "Cross-Country" (no "x" please) and make it a sub-Inter City brand, possibly for launch when the Leeds-Manchester upgrade is done.

I like the idea of a “Northern Intercity” brand for TPEX

 

[Meerkat]

I suspect the DfT will want to bury the TPE brand as it's pretty toxic with friends in the North.
Return to the simple "Cross-Country" (no "x" please) and make it a sub-Inter City brand, possibly for launch when the Leeds-Manchester upgrade is done.

Replace TPE as it’s toxic…….with Crosscountry?!!
TPE has all those newish trains, is being upgraded, and does what it says on the tin (apart from the WCML trains).
Certainly wouldn’t have thought you would rebrand it before TRU is finished and your rebrand can start with a better service, which isn’t constantly being disrupted by engineering.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect the DfT will want to bury the TPE brand as it's pretty toxic with friends in the North.

TPE isn't toxic. It was in the "3 car 185s for everything" era, but something like doubling the fleet has solved a lot of the problems. (There's a hint there for a certain other TOC with an overcrowding problem ).

 

[anthony263]

I think network southeast livery and branding should be brought back with a bit of a update for services around London etc although will have to see how that works with the gwr 387s.

I do think it would brighten up thameslink and great northern.
I think all the longer distance service from crosscountry and GWR etc they should ressurect the intercity livery just slightly updated like the one being used by LNER on that mk4 rake and class 91s

 

[Helvellyn]

Ensuring IPO of logos and brand names doesn't necessarily they will be used under GBR but it can stop competitors coming in and trying to utilise brands that might have wider recognition for themselves.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

TPE isn't toxic. It was in the "3 car 185s for everything" era, but something like doubling the fleet has solved a lot of the problems. (There's a hint there for a certain other TOC with an overcrowding problem ).

It was toxic in the "3 car 185s for everything" era, yes, and then improved a little - and then became completely toxic again (even more SO) over the two year or so period where about 25% of their trains were turning up and First got ousted? You can't have forgotten that. I know for a fact people up here still associate TPE with that, just like they associate Northern with not being able to travel on Sundays.

 

[Ellwill]

Some interesting recent trademarks with the The Secretary of State for Transport:-
GWR

https://trademarks.ipo.gov.uk/ipo-tmcase/page/Results/1/UK00004154470

Provincial Sprinter logo

https://trademarks.ipo.gov.uk/ipo-tmcase/page/Results/1/UK00004154474

90s Gatwick Express logo

https://trademarks.ipo.gov.uk/ipo-tmcase/page/Results/1/UK00004154484

Golden Arrow

https://trademarks.ipo.gov.uk/ipo-tmcase/page/Results/1/UK00004154485

Trademark of "INTERCITY"

https://trademarks.ipo.gov.uk/ipo-tmcase/page/Results/1/UK00004155103

Various other names trademarked -

https://trademarks.ipo.gov.uk/ipo-tmowner/page/search?id=2057491&domain=1&page=1

GWR is certainly interesting - suggests that the name will continue under GBR.

Inspecting these more closely, the registrations appear to be under trademark Class 28, which covers toys and games specifically. I would assume this would be more relevant to the likes of Hornby and Dovetail Games in that they would need permission from DfT to use these brands and logos going forward.

 

[ScottGallagher]

Slightly OT but that sprinter logo always reminded me of the Krypton Factor game show