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Great British Railways: Branding options?

LNW-GW Joint

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No - because the whole process is designed to ensure they don’t- and even if it wasn’t, for many journeys the only way they could end up on the wrong flight to their destination would be to turn up on the wrong day.
I once followed the Branson family up the aircraft steps at Heathrow for a (Swissair) flight to Zurich.
Only they thought it was going to Geneva (which was the aircraft parked next door).
Cue some airline tycoon embarrassment as they reversed down the stairs.

Airline passengers have found themselves in the wrong Panama or Melbourne (both these in Florida) before now.
 
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geoffk

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I once followed the Branson family up the aircraft steps at Heathrow for a (Swissair) flight to Zurich.
Only they thought it was going to Geneva (which was the aircraft parked next door).
Cue some airline tycoon embarrassment as they reversed down the stairs.

Airline passengers have found themselves in the wrong Panama or Melbourne (both these in Florida) before now.
and in Calgary instead of Cagliari (1990 World Cup)!
 

Krokodil

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And conversely just because you think it’s complex it doesn’t mean it’s true for the general public.
I work with enough of the general public to know that they find it complex too. Whether I'm the one selling and asking if a more restrictive ticket is worth the 10p saving to them, or if I'm checking and find that they've boarded with an invalid ticket they bought from the TVM or online.

In Manchester just now I was running late (it's chaos there today) and a girl almost got back off of the train when she joined it at the last minute because she was worried about the validity of her ticket to the airport. I just told her to stay put given the disruption.

She shouldn't have to stress about ticket validity when travelling to the airport (particularly during disruption but also at any time). She should just be able to board the first train to the airport that shows up.
 
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Energy

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We need to abandon this idea that slower is cheaper. Staff are paid by the hour, rolling stock costs depend on how long it is needed etc.

Whenever costs are compared per km per TOC, the intercity ones come out much lower. The most efficient railway is where passengers spend the minimum time occupying it.

I suggest we drop all restrictions and let passengers find their own quickest reasonable route. Few people want to spend more than the minimum amount of time on the train and those who deliberately go weird routes to avoid certain trains (like XC) are making best use of the system.

If we find trains carting around fresh air, we can change train lengths to accord.

I don’t think it is as bad as people think. Certain journeys the existing operators are close enough that it doesn’t make a difference, e.g Rugby to London is only 10 mins quicker on Avanti than LNWR Crewe services. Other ones the journey is so much longer that few are doing it, the now former 4hr LNWR London - Liverpool comes to mind.
 
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Bletchleyite

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We need to abandon this idea that slower is cheaper. Staff are paid by the hour, rolling stock costs depend on how long it is needed etc.

Whenever costs are compared per km per TOC, the intercity ones come out much lower. The most efficient railway is where passengers spend the minimum time occupying it.

That would be true but for one thing - the stopping service has to run anyway and typically has low loadings. Thus the extra passengers are essentially marginal. That's how Chiltern and WMT can offer low fares.

I agree that if the service was running only for the long distance passengers slower=cheaper would be uneconomic, but that's not how it works.

I suggest we drop all restrictions and let passengers find their own quickest reasonable route. Few people want to spend more than the minimum amount of time on the train and those who deliberately go weird routes to avoid certain trains (like XC) are making best use of the system.

Then you're going to have to crank up the fares hugely by getting rid of the cheaper option entirely.

I don’t think it is as bad as people think. Certain journeys the existing operators are close enough that it doesn’t make a difference, e.g Rugby to London is only 10 mins quicker on Avanti than LNWR Crewe services. Other ones the journey is so much longer that few are doing it, the now former 4hr LNWR London - Liverpool comes to mind.

Plenty of people did do that. It was an absolute bargain that broadened the market by offering something that competed well with the road coach or with cramming into your mate's 15 year old Corsa. It ended because it was destroying the timetable as a direct service due to chronic unreliability, but I bet plenty do still do it with the change in Birmingham or Crewe because it's such good value.
 

HSTEd

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That would be true but for one thing - the stopping service has to run anyway and typically has low loadings. Thus the extra passengers are essentially marginal. That's how Chiltern and WMT can offer low fares.

I agree that if the service was running only for the long distance passengers slower=cheaper would be uneconomic, but that's not how it works.
The cost of adding passengers on a great many trains is essentially marginal.
There are comparatively few trains that are so heavily loaded that passengers are left behind.

Indeed, a standing passenger has essentially zero cost to the railway.
Right now we have Avanti deliberately pricing passengers off of ("peak") trains that run half empty, which are then carried on WMT trains instead.
This might maximise Avanti's farebox, but it imposes substantial additional costs.

Given that the true cost of operating the ICWC franchise (scaling access charges to cover NR's actual costs) is well over double its farebox, I am not sure this is going very well.
Given how low farebox recovery has become, I think cost reductions are likely to be more effective than attempting to squeeze more blood out of the stone on the fares side.

Indeed, i think that on a lot of these journeys, it would be cheaper for the railway and preferable for passengers if one carriage of a Pendolino was fitted with unreserved transverse seating and lots of standing room.
In many cases the journey time advantage would be so large that noone would chose otherwise.

EDIT:
A single vehicle of a Class 710 has 52 seats and ~152 standee capacity, apparently.

As an example, the Avanti vs WMT advantage to Crewe is something like half an hour - I think a lot of people would take it even if it meant standing for the half hour to Milton Keynes Central (at which time enough seats in the rest of the train will have been freed up in most cases).
 
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Mark J

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Can we go back to 1976 and have the return of the 'flying banana' colour scheme for HST units.

(With digitally simulated Paxman Valenta engine sound effects)

:lol::lol:
 

Ghostbus

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A single brand should be avoided for two reasons....

1. It will clash with the much stronger (and far more relevant) National Rail brand, which should continue

2. It will only highlight what is not part of this glorious revolution (open access operators, the devolved nations and regions, that there London, and who knows where else), which kind of puts a dent in the whole "great" thing

There should be a rebranding however, since the entire point of GBR is to wash away the alleged stain on the national consciousness that was railway privatisation (a period of massive passenger growth and major leaps forward in technology and service, but whatevs). Also, governments love spending your tax dollars on new signage and paint.

If the most useful aspect of GBR is going to be hassle free use of the train in those places where that is entirely within GBR's control (see 1. and 2.), then the brand(s!) should convey that somehow. I am buggered if I know how tbf.

The time is probably right to at least ditch the tedious call backs to past glories in the assorted unimaginative reordering to the words railway/s and trains around well worn geographisms. Between privatisation and the management era, the history pooch has well and truly been screwed, with any and all historical links or indeed love lost.

Calling it British Rail is only going alienate half the ridership, the people who actually remember how bad things were when that was more than just a brand. Calling it Great British Rail will only allow Boris Johnson to claim credit for it, If by some miracle it actually proves to be a success.

Calling it British Railways would be just plain wrong. That brand should be gifted to the NRM, for their exclusive use in the upkeep of our national railway heritage, in perpetuity.

There's frankly too much nostalgia in the world today as it is. It should be something leftfield. Modern. Fresh. Bold.

Say what you like about Lumo, there's not many people who don't know that it's a train company that aims to get you up and down the east coast cheaply but in a manner befitting the 21at Century. It's an identity that by some magic of branding actually makes you forget their stuffy establishment competitor is actually using the same basic train constrained by the same metals and signals.
 

Sad Sprinter

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There's frankly too much nostalgia in the world today as it is. It should be something leftfield. Modern. Fresh. Bold.

The trouble is there's not really much you can work with. Renfe is a great name, but I dont think there's enough words other than "British", "Rail", or "Railways" to create a new modern branding. I dont know, what about Great Britain NationAl RaIlway CorporAtion or GAIA? Who knows, now where's my top consultancy job...
 

Bletchleyite

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I'd actually call it National Rail. It's an established and known brand, and not one that's been directly poisoned by any TOC misdeeds. With the BR symbol generally used in the circle as that does, because it makes it look more modern to me. And I absolutely would bring back InterCity as a brand, it's probably the strongest railway brand in the world and we invented it!

The livery etc should probably be farmed out to a high quality design house to come up with something that genuinely looks good and suits all current stock - you couldn't use it now as it'd be dated and not have 'called out' doors, but the Regional Railways scheme was an example of a true masterpiece - it suited absolutely everything that ever wore it, from a knackered 142 to a Mk1 coach to a 156, and being a recognisable form it suited well having the colours changed for regional variants.
 

Sad Sprinter

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I'd actually call it National Rail. It's an established and known brand, and not one that's been directly poisoned by any TOC misdeeds. With the BR symbol generally used in the circle as that does, because it makes it look more modern to me. And I absolutely would bring back InterCity as a brand, it's probably the strongest railway brand in the world and we invented it!

The livery etc should probably be farmed out to a high quality design house to come up with something that genuinely looks good and suits all current stock - you couldn't use it now as it'd be dated and not have 'called out' doors, but the Regional Railways scheme was an example of a true masterpiece - it suited absolutely everything that ever wore it, from a knackered 142 to a Mk1 coach to a 156, and being a recognisable form it suited well having the colours changed for regional variants.

Ah see National Rail its just "a bit".... I agree with the BR logo in a circle though. Perhaps theres something else they can do with it to update it.
 

eldomtom2

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I'm not sure I'd call National Rail a "strong brand" - on social media I pretty much only see people using "National Rail" in connection with the app/website.
 

Sad Sprinter

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OK Im invested in this now.

I came up with the following on the Overground:

  1. United Railways of Great Britain
  2. British United Railways
  3. Allied Railways
  4. Boudica (I just think it would be a great brand name for something)
I thought the "united" theme will accommodate the "Westminster controlled" railways in England and the devolved railways in Scotland and Wales.

I agree. It would be open to confusion and misinterpretation. It infers "one nation" - that might cause friction with Scottish and Welsh compatriots.

Honestly it’s a shame we have to worry about that with something as inoffensive as naming our national railway.
 
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JLH4AC

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A single brand should be avoided for two reasons....

1. It will clash with the much stronger (and far more relevant) National Rail brand, which should continue
I am not sure that National Rail is that strong of a brand, excluding Londoners I have heard more people refer to it as British Rail despite British Rail being gone for 20+ years.
2. It will only highlight what is not part of this glorious revolution (open access operators, the devolved nations and regions, that there London, and who knows where else), which kind of puts a dent in the whole "great" thing
The devolved nations and regions will be closely linked with GBR through the functions of the Rail Delivery Group being transferred to GBR and GBR entering agreements with devolved nations and regions (They have already started processes with TfW and have already agreed to partnerships with TfGM and West Midlands Rail Executive.). Open access operators were left alone for political reasons ranging from it would "cost too much to nationalize them" to maintaining free market competition. The great in the term Great British refers to the island of Great Britain not the concept of greatness.
There should be a rebranding however, since the entire point of GBR is to wash away the alleged stain on the national consciousness that was railway privatisation (a period of massive passenger growth and major leaps forward in technology and service, but whatevs). Also, governments love spending your tax dollars on new signage and paint.
Privatisation was a stain on the national consciousness, privatisation has led to a railway that cost the government more than BR did and has increased government involvement in the railways with all the bad and good that comes with that. Putting that passenger growth down to privatisation is likely incorrect as passenger numbers started rising 18 months before the privatisation began, and outside factors such as fuel prices and congestion have arguably had more effect on how many people want to use the railway than anything the railways is doing. Realitisicly privatisation has likely harmed railway technology as the privatisation of British Rail played the role in most railway engineering companies being bought up by overseas companies and led to the sale of the British Rail Research Division meaning there are a lot fewer railway engineering companies especially British ones to develop railway technology and all the ones operating in the UK are solely driven by the profit motive.
The time is probably right to at least ditch the tedious call backs to past glories in the assorted unimaginative reordering to the words railway/s and trains around well worn geographisms. Between privatisation and the management era, the history pooch has well and truly been screwed, with any and all historical links or indeed love lost.
There's frankly too much nostalgia in the world today as it is. It should be something leftfield. Modern. Fresh. Bold.
Good luck with coming up with a decent name that is not historical or geographic in nature that does not seem like a foolhardy attempt to avoid such branding or would quickly become dated.

While I would agree that certain historical names that call back to historical companies just for the sake of nostalgia/unearned reputation such as LNER should be avoided in the future I don't why we should avoid functional names such as British Rail because they were used in the past.
Calling it British Rail is only going alienate half the ridership, the people who actually remember how bad things were when that was more than just a brand. Calling it Great British Rail will only allow Boris Johnson to claim credit for it, If by some miracle it actually proves to be a success.
People who are alienated by that will likely be alienated by any state-owned national railway company as proven by the 1970s BR memes from right-wing press about GBR, it is likely better to provide a great service to prove them wrong than to try to name it in a way that will not alienate them. There are many people who actually remember what BR was like and want BR to be brought back because they rightly blame the DfT and the government for British Rail’s problems.

Brois will likely try to claim credit for it no matter what it was renamed to, he is an egotist who will claim credit for anything he can if he thinks he can get away with it and would make him look better.
Calling it British Railways would be just plain wrong. That brand should be gifted to the NRM, for their exclusive use in the upkeep of our national railway heritage, in perpetuity.
That is not going to happen unless the parliament is going to rewrite trademark law or NRM is going to start a TOC or related business there is no way for NRM to maintain that trademark as you need to be active in a given sector to be able to defend your ownership of the trademark in that sector.
Say what you like about Lumo, there's not many people who don't know that it's a train company that aims to get you up and down the east coast cheaply but in a manner befitting the 21at Century. It's an identity that by some magic of branding actually makes you forget their stuffy establishment competitor is actually using the same basic train constrained by the same metals and signals.
Lumo branding has nothing to do with that, it could be called East Coast Trains and have completely white trains and still be known as the Ryanair of the railways. It is their marketing and business model that has led to so many people knowing of them and how they operate.
 
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Transilien

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Honestly it’s a shame we have to worry about that with something as inoffensive as naming our national railway.
It’s the political reality of one country being formed of 3 (kind of 4) nations. Let’s be honest if it wasn’t called the UK and made up of 3 nations it would just be greater England.
 

renegademaster

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Im of the camp there really shouldnt be much in the way of branding other than the double arrow.

Having 20 different brands just complicates things. I know someone who thought you couldnt get a season ticket from East Croydon to Ashford because they are different TOCs. Even an intercity distinction is too much imo, the goal should be a united front for everything.

All thats needed for wayfinding is route numbers.
 

JLH4AC

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Im of the camp there really shouldnt be much in the way of branding other than the double arrow.

Having 20 different brands just complicates things. I know someone who thought you couldnt get a season ticket from East Croydon to Ashford because they are different TOCs. Even an intercity distinction is too much imo, the goal should be a united front for everything.

All thats needed for wayfinding is route numbers.
Multiple brands do not prevent GBR from operating as a fully integrated system, whether in regard to ticketing or anything else. TfL has multiple brands and transit modes yet they have a close to nearly fully integrated transit system (London River Services and the London Cable Car are the only places that it majorly falls short within London.) that even integrates National Rail services.

Route numbers for the most part would be a more boring and less wieldy replacement of TOCs' reporting marks as many of the major rail franchises' boundaries align with the route (or the cases of Northern routes.) they operate on. If you mean assigning numbers to every service I strongly doubt that many people would find that to be a quicker and easier form of wayfinding at the scale of the UK rail network than the current Departures and Arrivals Information system of just showing origin, destination, time, platform and if the needed TOC.
 

renegademaster

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Privatisation was a stain on the national consciousness
It also has lead to the highest frequncies and ridership in history.
Most people who can remember British Rail remember only the last 20 years of it. They imagine pacers and stuffy mark 2s
 

matt_world2004

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Single brand for GBR doesn't really work when you consider that metro services like Merseyrail, Elizabeth Line and LO etc will still be around and actually that differentiation is useful for wayfinding. You only have to look at TfL's rebranding of the London Overground lines as an example.
Devolved rail services are still going to be devolved and will not incorporate gbr branding iirc
 

emoaconr

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OK Im invested in this now.

I came up with the following on the Overground:

  1. United Railways of Great Britain
  2. British United Railways
  3. Allied Railways
  4. Boudica (I just think it would be a great brand name for something)
I thought the "united" theme will accommodate the "Westminster controlled" railways in England and the devolved railways in Scotland and Wales.



Honestly it’s a shame we have to worry about that with something as inoffensive as naming our national railway.
All of the above would equally be considered as 'muscular unionism'. Like all other European nations which have no issue with the concept of overlapping national railway systems, it is just that both Wales and Scotland have their own identity and character, whilst remaining in the GB ticketing system.

And of course, Boudica was a Celtic leader and would have spoken a Brythonic language, which would today be an ancestral relative of Welsh and Cornish. Whilst the Romans defeated the Iceni, it was the Anglo-Saxons who drove out any last vestige of Celtic culture out of East Anglia.
 

Transilien

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Most people who can remember British Rail remember only the last 20 years of it. They imagine pacers and stuffy mark 2s
Most people will remember the railways of today will imagine uncomfortable IET's and major infrastructure projects being scaled back (HS2 and Great Western Electrification) while more and more people are crammed onto voyagers that never had enough capacity in the first place. At least BR completed most of its infrastructure projects! However people will probably miss some things about todays railways in the future so in my opinion; it's a case of the grass is always greener. Don't forget that the privatised railway stuck with pacers for 20 years so many people's memory of privatised railways will be of pacers anyway.
 

renegademaster

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Most people will remember the railways of today will imagine uncomfortable IET's and major infrastructure projects being scaled back (HS2 and Great Western Electrification) while more and more people are crammed onto voyagers that never had enough capacity in the first place. At least BR completed most of its infrastructure projects! However people will probably miss some things about todays railways in the future so in my opinion; it's a case of the grass is always greener. Don't forget that the privatised railway stuck with pacers for 20 years so many people's memory of privatised railways will be of pacers anyway.
peak public optimism in my opinon felt around the time HS1 was just completed and Virgin et al was bringing in tons of shiny new trains and frequncies where getting better every year.

Non enthusiasts dont really understand the benefits of boring stuff like electrifcation, they did understand British rail overseeing a rapid decline in track KM and their local lines closing.


Everyone's perception of when things where at their best will differ , which is why i sympathise with the DfTs attitude of creating a new brand, unburdened by what has been and peoples memory of it, rather than a 1980s roleplay.
 

Sad Sprinter

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All of the above would equally be considered as 'muscular unionism'. Like all other European nations which have no issue with the concept of overlapping national railway systems, it is just that both Wales and Scotland have their own identity and character, whilst remaining in the GB ticketing system.

And of course, Boudica was a Celtic leader and would have spoken a Brythonic language, which would today be an ancestral relative of Welsh and Cornish. Whilst the Romans defeated the Iceni, it was the Anglo-Saxons who drove out any last vestige of Celtic culture out of East Anglia.

So Scotland, Wales and England cannot be united at all in any way?

I thought the nationalists still wanted to be best friends after they dissolve the UK!
 

Sad Sprinter

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As addressed in previous post

Your previous post is kind of contradictory though, whilst yes there are devolved regional railways, they are still united both physically and administratively under the GB Rail system. That is a statement of fact, if it winds up nationalists, then...? :s

peak public optimism in my opinon felt around the time HS1 was just completed and Virgin et al was bringing in tons of shiny new trains and frequncies where getting better every year.

Non enthusiasts dont really understand the benefits of boring stuff like electrifcation, they did understand British rail overseeing a rapid decline in track KM and their local lines closing.


Everyone's perception of when things where at their best will differ , which is why i sympathise with the DfTs attitude of creating a new brand, unburdened by what has been and peoples memory of it, rather than a 1980s roleplay.

I think that people would actually love a 1980s role-play. There's quite a popular perception in this country that we created a social-democratic nirvana after WW2 which was undone by neoliberalism. The love of the NHS being a prime example of the existence of such a perception.

I always felt the peak optimism was during the Cameron era.
 

emoaconr

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Your previous post is kind of contradictory though, whilst yes there are devolved regional railways, they are still united both physically and administratively under the GB Rail system. That is a statement of fact, if it winds up nationalists, then...? :s
Despite the polarised nature of politics, one can in fact have a pragmatic opinion of compromise. Nothing in your post disagrees with what I have already stated.
 

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