• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Great British Railways: What concessions/franchises will be created?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Purple Orange

On Moderation
Joined
26 Dec 2019
Messages
3,438
Location
The North
With the current franchise model coming to an end and a new concession/franchise model replacing it, how do you think GBR will package up the network to put out to tender?

I see the Northern network as a candidate for being chopped up, with new networks formed such as GM Rail or the south London metro services separated from the longer regional services to Brighton and Southampton etc. HS2 will eventually be it’s own concession and core routes of what we know as Cross Country & TPE today being wrapped up in NPR.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Failed Unit

Established Member
Joined
26 Jan 2009
Messages
8,881
Location
Central Belt
I am not sure if they will give concessions or if they will go down the road of how it used to work in the past with BR. The PTEs specifying service levels to operator. Although I think the PTEs are gone now - which could be a problem to have the same model. It may be a case of the Mayor's specify the regional service levels (The return of Centro and green trains anyone?)
 

Purple Orange

On Moderation
Joined
26 Dec 2019
Messages
3,438
Location
The North
I'd be inclined to think it'll stay as it is for now.
For now, of course. But the current set up win be the end state, which is kind of the point. Whoever operates a service will have a contract for a specified period of time which will likely be several years, therefore it is quite possible the current franchise model remains in situ, but with the state taking on the risk.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,913
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
For now, of course. But the current set up win be the end state, which is kind of the point. Whoever operates a service will have a contract for a specified period of time which will likely be several years, therefore it is quite possible the current franchise model remains in situ, but with the state taking on the risk.

I suspect so. I don't think there is an awful lot wrong with the present franchise areas as business units - they are generally very logical groupings - and I'm not sure what benefits would be gained by hacking about with them yet again.
 

Gareth

Established Member
Joined
10 Mar 2011
Messages
1,449
Location
Liverpool
We could end up with SNCF* TER-sytle services with regional commuter networks.

But I think it will be evolution not revolution.

* guess what the F stands for.
 

Purple Orange

On Moderation
Joined
26 Dec 2019
Messages
3,438
Location
The North
I suspect so. I don't think there is an awful lot wrong with the present franchise areas as business units - they are generally very logical groupings - and I'm not sure what benefits would be gained by hacking about with them yet again.

The point as I see it would be the advent of GM Rail and such like, which would require certain routes removed from Northern and perhaps a redistribution of the frequency of stoppers and regional services.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,913
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
The point as I see it would be the advent of GM Rail and such like, which would require certain routes removed from Northern and perhaps a redistribution of the frequency of stoppers and regional services.

I'm increasingly inclined that "GM Rail" will just be a livery on some Northern trains, and TfGM ponying up for a higher level of service, like it worked in the 80s and 90s. Not much of Greater Manchester's network stays within its boundaries or anywhere near to that, unlike Merseyrail.
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
17,882
Location
Reston City Centre
My guess is that part of the reason for this (once you strip away the politics of it - the left wing "nationalisation" versus the right wing "nostalgia"), one of the pragmatic reasons for this is to try to get the costs down.

We've had various different franchise maps (as the balance changed from tiny TOCs like Valley Lines/ Island Line/ Gatwick Express to mega ones like TSGN, but also seeing new ones like Caledonian Sleeper), but there's been roughly two dozen franchises.

However, over time, the number of firms bidding for them has contracted and the number of firms winning them has similarly shrunk. Look at how exotic the original bidders seem now (Merseyside Transport! PRISM!), whereas things became so complicated and onerous that it became restricted to only companies with significant existing railway experience (generally state operators from other EU countries)

Then it became too much for even Stagecoach and National Express (which meant we lost the Virgin brand too)

That's not sustainable - I'm not suggesting improper behaviour but Abellio and First have so much market share that they could significantly skew the market, making franchises much poorer value for taxpayers.

So my guess (and I stress, guess) is that the Government will want to try to encourage a range of bidders to create a competitive market - small enough to get a range of companies to bid for them - keep it competitive - stop anyone dominating the market.

A quick check of Wiki states that London buses were initially split into eleven companies, and buses in London are currently operated by:


Obviously some of those operators are predominantly focussed in one part of London (and therefore an east London based operator is unlikely to bid for a contract on a local route in the Heathrow area), but that seems to be enough operators to keep the market pretty competitive (and simple enough for a new provider to get involved if they want to - there aren't *huge* barriers - if you could lease a depot and some vehicles and rustle up some drivers then you can bid for a contract. That seems a reasonable blueprint for heavy rail.

Trying to leave politics aside, my guess would be that the Government would want to package things into smaller contracts, which would encourage some new companies to get involved (or even some "old" companies to come back into rail) - look at how many third party outsourcing companies there are out there who've not run passenger trains (but might be able to do what's asked of these new contracts - e.g. you're not doing infrastructure, you're not planning timetables, you're just managing an ongoing operation, which is what companies like G4S/ Mitie etc do - you don't need to know much about trains, these are more like the management contracts that the likes of G4S tender for)

I don't even think that we'd need to change the overall operator branding - e.g. there's no reason why we couldn't have Company X running Northern's Heaton operation, Company Y running Northern's Neville Hill operation and Company Z running Northern's Newton Heath operation, all with the same general Northern branding - just like you can have different companies operating all of the Subway restaurants in your city with practically no way that customers would know/notice whether they were run directly by Subway or run by the same franchisee or run by several different franchisees - they have certain common standards, they would be fined if they didn't maintain those standards - same with McDonalds franchises and others - you give them standards and they have to live up to those standards if they want to keep the contract.
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
27,686
Location
Redcar
just like you can have different companies operating all of the Subway restaurants in your city with practically no way that customers would know/notice whether they were run directly by Subway or run by the same franchisee or run by several different franchisees - they have certain common standards, they would be fined if they didn't maintain those standards - same with McDonalds franchises and others - you give them standards and they have to live up to those standards if they want to keep the contract.
I find it quite amusing that by ditching franchising we might actually get closer to how franchising in the rest of the world actually works :lol:
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
17,882
Location
Reston City Centre
I find it quite amusing that by ditching franchising we might actually get closer to how franchising in the rest of the world actually works :lol:

That's a great point!

But there's no reason why we have to have all operations operated under the same brand have to be provided by the same company - we could keep the same services we have today, with the same branding that those services currently have, but with a range of different companies providing them

That way, you're not going to be massively impacted if one parent company hit financial difficulties etc

I don't think there's much to be gained from splitting up franchises/ services in the eyes of the public, but there are things to be gained from splitting up the operation of things behind the scenes - it'd encourage more organisations to bid for these franchises, it could be a lot more cost effective, it would keep companies on their toes (rather than the rather cozy deal where companies have their feet under the tables for too long)
 

Mikey C

Established Member
Joined
11 Feb 2013
Messages
6,855
A quick check of Wiki states that London buses were initially split into eleven companies, and buses in London are currently operated by:


Obviously some of those operators are predominantly focussed in one part of London (and therefore an east London based operator is unlikely to bid for a contract on a local route in the Heathrow area), but that seems to be enough operators to keep the market pretty competitive (and simple enough for a new provider to get involved if they want to - there aren't *huge* barriers - if you could lease a depot and some vehicles and rustle up some drivers then you can bid for a contract. That seems a reasonable blueprint for heavy rail.
Actually, the bus tendering market in London is pretty mature. 3 of those you list are RATP, but more importantly the need to have a decent base is important. The costs of trying to find a space in a different part of London from your existing garages, recruiting staff from scratch and all to operate ONE route which you've just won, when rivals may have the economies of scale of running 10 routes from their garage, it doesn't add up. Thus the only competition is for routes near existing garages, with hardly any new entrants now.

Rail concessions are very different, as you aren't providing vehicles or staff, they come with the concession. Indeed if you are happy to maintain the status quo and rely on the expertise of your staff, a non transport company could operate one, Serco operated the DLR for 17 years.
 

Purple Orange

On Moderation
Joined
26 Dec 2019
Messages
3,438
Location
The North
That's a great point!

But there's no reason why we have to have all operations operated under the same brand have to be provided by the same company - we could keep the same services we have today, with the same branding that those services currently have, but with a range of different companies providing them

That way, you're not going to be massively impacted if one parent company hit financial difficulties etc

I don't think there's much to be gained from splitting up franchises/ services in the eyes of the public, but there are things to be gained from splitting up the operation of things behind the scenes - it'd encourage more organisations to bid for these franchises, it could be a lot more cost effective, it would keep companies on their toes (rather than the rather cozy deal where companies have their feet under the tables for too long)
Reading the report (see page 40) “Great British Railways will be made up of powerful regional divisions, with budgets and delivery held at the local level, not just nationally.” Reading further down, there will be 5 regional divisions that will be responsible for contracts, infrastructure and stations as well as integrating with other transport. That suggests to me that within each region, the award of contracts for various franchises could be rather segmented.
 

RobShipway

Established Member
Joined
20 Sep 2009
Messages
3,337
Reading the report (see page 40) “Great British Railways will be made up of powerful regional divisions, with budgets and delivery held at the local level, not just nationally.” Reading further down, there will be 5 regional divisions that will be responsible for contracts, infrastructure and stations as well as integrating with other transport. That suggests to me that within each region, the award of contracts for various franchises could be rather segmented.
The regional divisions are basically the regional divisions that are currently setup with Network Rail. As you do now, you will find that some franchises will be working over possible more than one division.

An example of this would be Great Western Railway. They operate both in the Network Rail Southern, Network Rail Wales & Western and Network Rail North West & Central regions.
 

Purple Orange

On Moderation
Joined
26 Dec 2019
Messages
3,438
Location
The North
The regional divisions are basically the regional divisions that are currently setup with Network Rail. As you do now, you will find that some franchises will be working over possible more than one division.

An example of this would be Great Western Railway. They operate both in the Network Rail Southern, Network Rail Wales & Western and Network Rail North West & Central regions.

Do we know that to be the case that the regional divisions will be as they currently are? The report suggests there is a large degree of decision making powers at that level.
 

RobShipway

Established Member
Joined
20 Sep 2009
Messages
3,337
Do we know that to be the case that the regional divisions will be as they currently are? The report suggests there is a large degree of decision making powers at that level.
There maybe a large amount of decision making moving from the DFT to the regional divisions, but I cannot see that impacting the franchise with GWR which has recently been renewed for 3 years I believe.

I can see that franchises being enlarged or franchises being merged for easier management by the local divisions of GBR. But this will be done in years to come when any current franchises have expired.
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
27,686
Location
Redcar
Well, quite (though an actual franchise pretty much always involves the franchisee taking revenue risk, which this doesn't).

Oh absolutely it's not a perfect comparison but it certainly sounds like the new regime is far closer to what franchising is supposed to look like than what railway franchising actually looked like! If I walk into a McDonalds in say Preston, then go to another one in London before finally visiting a McDonalds in Darlington my experience at all three venues is likely to be near enough identical. Probably some pricing differences but the menus, the uniforms, the quality (or lack depending on your point of view :lol:), the interior styling, etc etc will all have been almost impossible to tell apart. Meanwhile my journey by train will have involved two different intercity operators, with two different sets of branding, different on-board services, different types of trains, etc etc. Despite both, in theory, doing the same thing!

Whilst there is some talk still of concessions being given leeway to do their own thing a bit on some services (and I think intercity/long distance was mentioned as being one such area) I would be somewhat surprised if once this all shakes out my experience of travelling up the WCML to London and then down the ECML to Darlington doesn't end up being very similar unlike now where it's a very different experience.

I see the Northern network as a candidate for being chopped up

I would agree I think Northern would be a candidate for some fairly significant tweaking. I think the only question is how many bits it gets turned into. My thought would be that you split it into a western outfit covering the routes radiating out of Manchester and then an eastern outfit for the routes radiating out of Leeds/Sheffield with the North East tacked on. Though perhaps you would want to split it into three and have the North East out on our own as well. In any event even just cutting it in half would hopefully make it more manageable for the concession operator.

I do think more widely though it will be interesting to see how you balance the advantages of centralisation versus the nimbleness of smaller discrete operations. I would argue right now one of the big problems we have is the huge duplication of effort. For instance Newcastle hosts driver and guard depots for LNER, CrossCountry, Northern and TPE. Going forward how will GBR deal with that split? It would seem mad to keep things as divided up as that because it seems awfully inefficient. But then can you just merge them into one depot? Probably not as you're almost certainly still going to have several different concessions running through Newcastle and sharing staff between concessions seems like it would be very complicated from an accounting and responsibility point of view. Could you therefore merge some of them? Perhaps LNER and CrossCountry would be merged together with Northern and TPE being merged as well? That's probably more efficient overall but then how does that work outside of Newcastle? Presumably the routes served by CrossCountry will still be served so are they now let as part of the LNER (or whatever it might be called) concession? There's certainly a lot of advantages considering they cover basically the same ground from Doncaster northwards. But then how does that work in GWR land? Again there would be significant advantages to have GWR and CrossCountry basically merged as they share big chunks of territory! But we were just talking about how it was advantageous to have XC as part of the same package as LNER we can't also merge GWR into LNER and XC! That would be getting extremely unwieldly! Though having one InterCity concession might make sense in some respects?

I don't know any of the answers to these questions but I certainly think its fascinating to think about how you balance greater efficiency via greater centralisation with ensuring you don't end up actually making things worse by either making creating huge concessions which are likely to be complicated to administer and let with or by hurting passengers interests (which is supposed to be a massive nono). In my XC/LNER/GWR example one solution would be just to have XC's current SW to Scotland axis run only between Bristol and maybe York with passengers changing trains onto GWR/LNER services which plug the gap. But that's probably not very passenger friendly!

It's going to be fascinating to see how this develops as GBR gets it's feet under it.
 

HST43257

Established Member
Joined
10 Apr 2020
Messages
1,442
Location
York
With northern I’d like to see some local network brands in the areas of

Tyne and Tees
Manchester & Mersey
Yorkshire
 

Snow1964

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2019
Messages
6,257
Location
West Wiltshire
The DfT has today (24 August 2021) published a new Northern 2020 services agreement

Details​

The direct award services agreement between the Secretary of State for Transport, DfT OLR Holdings Limited and Northern Trains Limited dated 28 February 2020.
This agreement was announced by the Transport Minister on 29 January 2020.
This agreement replaces the Arriva Rail North 2015 franchise agreement.
These documents form part of the public register of franchise agreements. Please email queries about franchise agreements to [email protected].
Published 24 August 2021


Just seen from the Index that page 283 is about short formations, I suspect someone will comment on it.

Before anyone asks I have not read it, it is 468 pages long so best left to bedtime reading for anyone interested in Norhern
 
Last edited:

Jorge Da Silva

Established Member
Joined
4 Apr 2018
Messages
2,592
Location
Cleethorpes, North East Lincolnshire
This is what I thought may happen:

  1. 16 Regional Concessions controlled by the regions based on routes.
    1. Scotland Concession: Branded as ScotRail
    2. Wales Concession: Branded as Transport for Wales
    3. Central Concession: Branded as West Midlands Railway
    4. North West Concession: Branded as North Western Trains
    5. North Eastern Concession: Branded as North Eastern Trains
    6. East Coast Concession: Branded as LNER
    7. Merseyrail Concession: Branded as Merseyrail devolved to Merseytravel
    8. Kent Concession: Branded as South Eastern Railway
    9. East Midlands Concession: Branded as East Midlands Railway
    10. London Overground Concession: Branded as London Overground devolved to Transport for London
    11. Western Concession: Branded as Great Western Railway
    12. Thameslink Concession: Branded as Thameslink
    13. Sussex Concession: Branded as Southern
    14. Wessex Concession: Branded as South Western Railway
    15. Anglia Concession: Branded as Greater Anglia
    16. West Coast South Concession: Branded as London Northwestern Railway
    17. Caledonian Sleeper Concession: Branded as Caledonian Sleeper
  2. Concessions dealt with on a national level by GBR because they cross over multiple regions
    1. West Coast
    2. CrossCountry
    3. TransPennine Express
 

Gareth

Established Member
Joined
10 Mar 2011
Messages
1,449
Location
Liverpool
There may well be regional concessions where local authorities subsidise the local services, like the TER in France.

EDIT: realise I said exactly this back in May.
 
Last edited:

Jorge Da Silva

Established Member
Joined
4 Apr 2018
Messages
2,592
Location
Cleethorpes, North East Lincolnshire
There may well be regional concessions where local authorities subsidise the local services, like the TER in France.

I can see that happening yes. Maybe more likely to be sub-brands within the regional concessions? There is also mentions of partnerships which may see regional government and local government have branding for those areas but there will be more control of services for sure as its mentioned as part of the partnerships.
 

py_megapixel

Established Member
Joined
5 Nov 2018
Messages
6,673
Location
Northern England
  1. 16 Regional Concessions controlled by the regions based on routes.
    1. Scotland Concession: Branded as ScotRail
    2. Wales Concession: Branded as Transport for Wales
These are pretty much guaranteed, simply because they are now under the control of the Scottish/Welsh govts who do not have any plans to change them.

1. Central Concession: Branded as West Midlands Railway
[...]
15. Caledonian Sleeper Concession: Branded as Caledonian Sleeper
This lot is very unlikely to happen - at least not the "branded" bit, as there is supposed to be a unified GBR brand, which is one of the big 'selling points' of this strategy
 

Jorge Da Silva

Established Member
Joined
4 Apr 2018
Messages
2,592
Location
Cleethorpes, North East Lincolnshire
These are pretty much guaranteed, simply because they are now under the control of the Scottish/Welsh govts who do not have any plans to change them.


This lot is very unlikely to happen - at least not the "branded" bit, as there is supposed to be a unified GBR brand, which is one of the big 'selling points' of this strategy

But there will be sub-brands for regions. Yeah the brands are just me so they wont stay but we will see sub-brands not just GBR
 

py_megapixel

Established Member
Joined
5 Nov 2018
Messages
6,673
Location
Northern England
But there will be sub-brands for regions. Yeah the brands are just me so they wont stay but we will see sub-brands not just GBR
I imagine, though, that those sub-brands will be variations on whatever the GBR branding ends up being (maybe different coloured double arrows, for example). Also, it seems entirely plausible that we could go back to much larger brands, though the old BR ones would probably be a bit London-centric by modern standards. I would be surprised if we see anything approaching the diversity of liveries and names that we have now.

This is entirely up in the air; of course will just have to wait and see what we end up with. We could both be entirely wrong!
 

Jorge Da Silva

Established Member
Joined
4 Apr 2018
Messages
2,592
Location
Cleethorpes, North East Lincolnshire
I imagine, though, that those sub-brands will be variations on whatever the GBR branding ends up being (maybe different coloured double arrows, for example). Also, it seems entirely plausible that we could go back to much larger brands, though the old BR ones would probably be a bit London-centric by modern standards. I would be surprised if we see anything approaching the diversity of liveries and names that we have now.

This is entirely up in the air; of course will just have to wait and see what we end up with. We could both be entirely wrong!

I’ll be honest I hadn’t thought of that.

That i can definitely see happening. Though i wonder what will happen on long distance as it mentions about more commercial freedom such as fares with collaboration with GBR.

Could we see maybe: Double arrow GBR CrossCountry (for example?)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top