Great Central mainline closure

[RT4038]

It was an idea. I don't know how seriously it was considered. My feeling is that the 'orrible state of the line between Mkt Harboro and Northampton killed it.

I think the more realistic thought was to divert MML fasts via Nuneaton and Wigston. But that would have mean reversal at Nuneaton and lost time.

There were also two single bore tunnels (Kelmarsh and Oxendon) which had very limited clearance, meaning that passenger stock in regular use in that era would have required bars on the droplights. Any attempts to increase the gauge for containers or electrification would have been very expensive. There were also numerous level crossings, at least two over 'A' roads which would have required bridges building. Although none of the issues were technically insurmountable, the total cost of them all was probably prohibitive.

 

[70014IronDuke]

There were also two single bore tunnels (Kelmarsh and Oxendon) which had very limited clearance, meaning that passenger stock in regular use in that era would have required bars on the droplights. Any attempts to increase the gauge for containers or electrification would have been very expensive. There were also numerous level crossings, at least two over 'A' roads which would have required bridges building. Although none of the issues were technically insurmountable, the total cost of them all was probably prohibitive.

Yes, thanks for the details. I never travelled over the line, just knew it was not suitable for development without a lot of money.

Reverting to topic more directly, all this talk of loss of passenger traffic when the core part of the closed GC at places like Brackley and Lutterworth, and Leicester to Rugby (at the time and in the future) is understandable, but it ignores surely the biggest loss caused by the closure, namely the truncation of any sensible route north by rail from Aylesbury and locations immediately south thereof in the northern Chilterns on the former Met route.

Granted, these places were much smaller then than today, and travel by the general public was much less prolific, but a simple two-car DMU shuttle running Aylesbury – Bletchley (or even Northampton) could have been introduced with minimal or even no new infrastructure cost and surely have produced far more passenger journeys than any new chords at sth Leicester, Rugby or Loughborough. That, I would posit, would have been far more practical as a rail service even at the time, and certainly into the future to today as the populations and importance of Milton Keynes increased.

 

[Pigeon]

I agree, that would have been an excellent idea. At one time I did quite a lot of trips over all or part of that axis, all by road of course and whichever route you take it's a fiddle and an arse, yet it still seemed to me there was a natural association between the various places that tended to make them destinations from each other and the awkwardness of making the journeys was in contradiction to the needs of the area.

 

[30907]

I'm not sure that the Market Harborough to Northampton section could ever have served as part of a fast passenger line, though it might have served freight well enough. (Now if only the route surveyed in 1836 had been built ....)

True, but given that Woodford Halse to Banbury had only one or two fasts a day, I'm not sure that mattered.

There were also two single bore tunnels (Kelmarsh and Oxendon) which had very limited clearance, meaning that passenger stock in regular use in that era would have required bars on the droplights.

I hadn't realised - my only trip over the line was in a goods brake!

 

[Tester]

True, but given that Woodford Halse to Banbury had only one or two fasts a day, I'm not sure that mattered.

I hadn't realised - my only trip over the line was in a goods brake!

You can walk through one bore of each now!

 

[Grumpy]

a simple two-car DMU shuttle running Aylesbury – Bletchley (or even Northampton) could have been introduced with minimal or even no new infrastructure cost and surely have produced far more passenger journeys than any new chords at sth Leicester, Rugby or Loughborough. That, I would posit, would have been far more practical as a rail service even at the time, and certainly into the future to today as the populations and importance of Milton Keynes increased.

Weren't the DMU's used on Marylebone services running ECS to Bletchley for maintenance?

 

[Dr Hoo]

Weren't the DMU's used on Marylebone services running ECS to Bletchley for maintenance?

To some extent (but of course usually at times of day when they weren't required in traffic).

 

[Grumpy]

I don't get this absurd fixation with a link between Rugby and Leicester (which also keeps getting peddled elsewhere).

I think some see it in a wider context-it's the places beyond that are important. There was too much contemplation on hamlets like Woodford or Finmere rather than the bigger opportunities lost.

As an example between approx. 1988 and 2008 I travelled from West Yorkshire to Rugby or Northampton or Milton Keynes at least once per month for work-related purposes. Trying to use rail for such journeys was hard work. Simply changing at Tamworth off a NE-SW train onto a WCML train was almost impossible due to the lack of calls by WCML trains. I managed this once on the way to Watford and remember marvelling at the Tamworth departures-about a dozen departures a day to Newcastle but only a couple up the WCML. Changing at Birmingham was possible but this took time and scrambling for a seat at New St. was a turn off. Similarly routing via Manchester. There was a short period during project Rio when it was possible to catch a Leeds-St Pancras service with a good cross-platform connection at Leicester into a Rio HST which stopped at Wellingborough allowing an easy taxi ride to Northampton.
Work colleagues who used to make similar journeys thought I was mad for considering the train and they always used the car, as I did mostly.
A simple connection at Leicester (Midland) running to Rugby and then via Northampton to Milton K. would have been a very attractive alternative to the M1. There are a lot of journeys made from West and South Yorkshire to the South Midlands. It is a popular area for company meetings and training-I know of two organisations that had their national training and conference centres in Rugby at this time and one at Milton Keynes. I had a neighbour employed by the Open University who used to make regular journeys there. I knew people who commuted between Leicester and Northampton-all by car
This isn't an argument for retaining the GC in its old form but illustrates the lack of national strategic planning .Thus at the same time plans were well advanced to increase the size of Northampton with London overspill, and similarly create Milton Keynes. The area now has a population of approx. half a million and a route via Rugby and Leicester to the East Midlands and Yorkshire would have been useful. And indeed may have been more viable than one westwards to Oxford .

 

[Dr Hoo]

Whilst I get the gist of this argument, I can't see that a four-leg/three-change journey (say) Leeds-Sheffield-Leicester-Rugby-Northampton/MK would have been very attractive or fast compared to Leeds-Birmingham New Street- Northampton/MK with one change.

I also get that New Street was rather grotty in the 1988-2008 era (now much improved) but am surprised that @Grumpy would have been 'scrambling for a seat' in that era, especially southbound.

 

[D6130]

Weren't the DMU's used on Marylebone services running ECS to Bletchley for maintenance?

Yes, on Saturday afternoons from/to Aylesbury.

 

[Gloster]

The 1979-1980 WTT shows a 07.10 Aylesbury-Bletchley TMD on Saturdays Only and an 18.55 Saturdays Excepted. The return was at 05.45 Mondays to Saturdays.

 

[D6130]

The 1979-1980 WTT shows a 07.10 Aylesbury-Bletchley TMD on Saturdays Only and an 18.55 Saturdays Excepted. The return was at 05.45 Mondays to Saturdays.

When I was at Aylesbury (1988-91), the 14 10 ex-Marylebone continued ECS to Bletchley on Saturdays.

 

[RT4038]

I think some see it in a wider context-it's the places beyond that are important. There was too much contemplation on hamlets like Woodford or Finmere rather than the bigger opportunities lost.

As an example between approx. 1988 and 2008 I travelled from West Yorkshire to Rugby or Northampton or Milton Keynes at least once per month for work-related purposes. Trying to use rail for such journeys was hard work. Simply changing at Tamworth off a NE-SW train onto a WCML train was almost impossible due to the lack of calls by WCML trains. I managed this once on the way to Watford and remember marvelling at the Tamworth departures-about a dozen departures a day to Newcastle but only a couple up the WCML. Changing at Birmingham was possible but this took time and scrambling for a seat at New St. was a turn off. Similarly routing via Manchester. There was a short period during project Rio when it was possible to catch a Leeds-St Pancras service with a good cross-platform connection at Leicester into a Rio HST which stopped at Wellingborough allowing an easy taxi ride to Northampton.
Work colleagues who used to make similar journeys thought I was mad for considering the train and they always used the car, as I did mostly.
A simple connection at Leicester (Midland) running to Rugby and then via Northampton to Milton K. would have been a very attractive alternative to the M1. There are a lot of journeys made from West and South Yorkshire to the South Midlands. It is a popular area for company meetings and training-I know of two organisations that had their national training and conference centres in Rugby at this time and one at Milton Keynes. I had a neighbour employed by the Open University who used to make regular journeys there. I knew people who commuted between Leicester and Northampton-all by car
This isn't an argument for retaining the GC in its old form but illustrates the lack of national strategic planning .Thus at the same time plans were well advanced to increase the size of Northampton with London overspill, and similarly create Milton Keynes. The area now has a population of approx. half a million and a route via Rugby and Leicester to the East Midlands and Yorkshire would have been useful. And indeed may have been more viable than one westwards to Oxford .

But has not the improved Trent Valley line service not alleviated this problem, making Tamworth (or Nuneaton from Leicester) changes more convenient?

Running any number of through trains from Milton Keynes and/or Northampton to the Rugby (Midland) - Leicester line (or indeed the GC line) was never going to be possible without major infrastructure works. Surely providing a better Trent Valley service is cheaper and potentially more widely convenient than the infrastructure works that would have been (and still would be) required?

 

[Grumpy]

Whilst I get the gist of this argument, I can't see that a four-leg/three-change journey (say) Leeds-Sheffield-Leicester-Rugby-Northampton/MK would have been very attractive or fast compared to Leeds-Birmingham New Street- Northampton/MK with one change.

Yes. With hindsight I should have been clearer. I think I was half responding to AOwen's comment re people having a fixation on a Reading-Leicester link, and half suggesting that if there was any case for running a service from Leicester to Oxford avoiding Bimingham then that would have been more useful running via the Midland and MK than the GC. I think at the time of the GC closure the Midland still had some through trains running beyond Sheffield. I realise the Midland route from Rugby closed before the GC and it might not have been feasible

I also get that New Street was rather grotty in the 1988-2008 era (now much improved) but am surprised that @Grumpy would have been 'scrambling for a seat' in that era, especially southbound.

Well my memories are that it was always a challenge finding a seat when travelling northbound for journeys in the evening peak.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Weren't the DMU's used on Marylebone services running ECS to Bletchley for maintenance?

I don't think that was so in 1966. At that point, Marylebone depot was open. I think that it must have closed in the late 70s or early 80 - someone in here will know. But in any case, the odd ECS move from Aylesbury to Bletchley doth not a passenger service make - and the four-car units would have had too much capacity for any regular service, I'd have thought.

EDIT I see others have answered on this point now.

 

[Grumpy]

But has not the improved Trent Valley line service not alleviated this problem, making Tamworth (or Nuneaton from Leicester) changes more convenient?

Indeed-although direct trains from South and West Yorkshire are only every two hours if you don't fancy an intermediate change

 

[D6130]

I don't think that was so in 1966. At that point, Marylebone depot was open. I think that it must have closed in the late 70s or early 80 - someone in here will know. But in any case, the odd ECS move from Aylesbury to Bletchley doth not a passenger service make - and the four-car units would have had too much capacity for any regular service, I 'd have thought.

Marylebone depot was still open when I transferred from Aylesbury to Skipton in the Summer of 1991, but it was only a servicing and fuelling depot. Heavier maintenance, such as bogie, engine and transmission changes, was always carried out at Bletchley. By the late 1980s, the Chiltern lines had acquired several two car class 108 units, which had been made redundant in the North-West by the introduction of class 142 pacers. These were used singly on Aylesbury-Princes Risborough shuttles or for strengthening the long-established class 115 four car high-density units.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Marylebone depot was still open when I transferred from Aylesbury to Skipton in the Summer of 1991, but it was only a servicing and fuelling depot. Heavier maintenance, such as bogie, engine and transmission changes, was always carried out at Bletchley. By the late 1980s, the Chiltern lines had acquired several two car class 108 units, which had been made redundant in the North-West by the introduction of class 142 pacers. These were used singly on Aylesbury-Princes Risborough shuttles or for strengthening the long-established class 115 four car high-density units.

Thanks for the correct info. My only thoughts are that I can't remember the Marylebone 4-car units ever appearing at Bletchley in the 1960s (when I was a fairly regular visitor). But it's possible I've just forgotten.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Marylebone depot was still open when I transferred from Aylesbury to Skipton in the Summer of 1991, but it was only a servicing and fuelling depot. Heavier maintenance, such as bogie, engine and transmission changes, was always carried out at Bletchley. By the late 1980s, the Chiltern lines had acquired several two car class 108 units, which had been made redundant in the North-West by the introduction of class 142 pacers. These were used singly on Aylesbury-Princes Risborough shuttles or for strengthening the long-established class 115 four car high-density units.

My goodness. So the South East was getting hand me downs !. I recall visiting Marylebone DMU depot in the late 1980s - early 1990s. I do not think I ever saw Networkers there so perhaps that is when it demised ?. It is all new flats now so was probably redeveloped during the boom years of selling railway land for development. Those flats probably contain residents complaining about the noise from 68s but I wonder what it was like living near the depot in DMU or even steam times !.

 

[Taunton]

I recall visiting Marylebone DMU depot in the late 1980s - early 1990s. I do not think I ever saw Networkers there so perhaps that is when it demised ?. It is all new flats now so was probably redeveloped during the boom years of selling railway land for development. Those flats probably contain residents complaining about the noise from 68s but I wonder what it was like living near the depot in DMU or even steam times !.

I think the flats are a bit older, because a previous set of complaints came from when BR ran a regular Sunday steam service from Marylebone to Stratford (1980s?), and the construction of those flats, on the west side, allowed photographers to go directly up the stairs to end balconies overlooking the departure. The inhabitants whinged about them, apparently quite considerably, as well.

 

[70014IronDuke]

My goodness. So the South East was getting hand me downs !. I recall visiting Marylebone DMU depot in the late 1980s - early 1990s. I do not think I ever saw Networkers there so perhaps that is when it demised ?. It is all new flats now so was probably redeveloped during the boom years of selling railway land for development. Those flats probably contain residents complaining about the noise from 68s but I wonder what it was like living near the depot in DMU or even steam times !.

Was there a depot there in steam days? Neasden was the main MPD for the GC, but maybe they had a stabling point at Marylebone?

Going back more to the 'core' point of the thread, I get the distinct impression that one aspect of the GC which management seemed to ignore is traffic from the main outer suburban points on the line, namely Aylesbury and, in particular, High Wycombe. From what I've seen, all the expresses - when they had such trains - stormed through both stations with no interest in picking up or setting down passengers for or from the suburbs on to Marylebone.

Obviously travel then was nothing like it has become, but this would have been a unique market, not served by the Midland or WCML, so it seems strange to ignore this potential.

 

[30907]

Was there a depot there in steam days? Neasden was the main MPD for the GC, but maybe they had a stabling point at Marylebone?

Going back more to the 'core' point of the thread, I get the distinct impression that one aspect of the GC which management seemed to ignore is traffic from the main outer suburban points on the line, namely Aylesbury and, in particular, High Wycombe. From what I've seen, all the expresses - when they had such trains - stormed through both stations with no interest in picking up or setting down passengers for or from the suburbs on to Marylebone.

Partly true in GCR days, but by the end only the Master Cutler omitted an outer suburban stop..

 

[Harvester]

Was there a depot there in steam days? Neasden was the main MPD for the GC, but maybe they had a stabling point at Marylebone?

There were some limited facilities (turning, coaling and watering) available. By 1966 Colwick was providing the motive power for Nottingham-Marylebone workings, on out and home diagrams. Any failures at Marylebone would have the fire dropped, and then be stabled until they could be towed back north. This could take some days (B1 61306 was dumped there for a few weeks towards the end of steam).

 

[MichaelAMW]

Marylebone depot was still open when I transferred from Aylesbury to Skipton in the Summer of 1991, but it was only a servicing and fuelling depot. Heavier maintenance, such as bogie, engine and transmission changes, was always carried out at Bletchley. By the late 1980s, the Chiltern lines had acquired several two car class 108 units, which had been made redundant in the North-West by the introduction of class 142 pacers. These were used singly on Aylesbury-Princes Risborough shuttles or for strengthening the long-established class 115 four car high-density units.

They arrived because Marylebone lost some of its 4-car units to the West Midlands, where they were used with the 116 units to create four-car sets for the Cross-City service. As a consequence, what had been 8-car services out of Marylebone with 2 x 115 sometimes became 6-car with 115 + 108/115. To make up the numbers in the West Mids there were also a few trailers rescued from the St Pancras 127s.

E.g. https://www.railcar.co.uk/images/600, https://www.railcar.co.uk/images/21337, https://www.railcar.co.uk/images/1107